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ISFPs and the 'Artist' label.

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Stansmith

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Do we really deserve it? Although ISFPs are great aesthetes, I've always been much more impressed by the creative works of INFPs, INFJs, and INTPs. Even some of the best ISFP songwriters get stale after a while. The only fields we seem to really excel at consistently are 'fashion', photography, painting and design, but even then, INxx's often trump us in those areas on a conceptual and technical level (Ti+Ni/Ne>Se when it comes to this area).
 
S

Stansmith

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Most of the greatest filmmakers seem to use some combination of Ti and intuition. Most Se filmmakers are forgettable.
 

reckful

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I think Keirsey had a lot of insightful things to say about the various MBTI types, but I also think he made a pretty big mistake when he decided to label ISFPs the "Artists." In going from Please Understand Me to Please Understand Me II, he actually changed Artist to "Composer," but I'm afraid that correction wasn't sufficiently wide in its scope. To his credit, Keirsey also said, right from the start, that NFs were by far the most common types in the arts that involved "verbal and written communication," but my understanding is that, if you distinguish art from crafts (to use a familiar distinction), then, statistically speaking, most types of creative artists (using that term broadly) are disproportionately populated by N's — and it doesn't much matter whether the art you're talking about involves physical stuff (like painting) or incorporeal stuff (like poetry). Browsing the statistics in the MBTI Manual, it looks like maybe a P preference has the 2nd-biggest influence on artistic interests, with F in 3rd place.

I'd say that, if there's a single type that deserves to be viewed as the quintessential "creative artist" type, it's probably the INFP.

Of the 114 professional fine artists in one study shown in the second edition of the MBTI Manual, 91% of them were N's (65% NF and 26% NT). More specifically, 25 were INFP and only one was ISFP.

The list of occupational rankings along the SN dimension in Appendix D to the Manual (based on a variety of studies in the CAPT database) includes the following entries:

  • Photographers: 73% N
  • Teachers of art, drama & music: 71% N
  • Artists & entertainers (broad category): 69% N
  • Musicians & composers: 65% N
  • Designers: 58% N
There are no artistic occupations that are majority S.

The correlation between N and creativity isn't limited to the arts, either. An entire section of the Manual is devoted to "Studies of Creativity," and they include a series of studies conducted by the Institute for Personality Assessment and Research (UC Berkeley) that looked at people who both worked in creative professions and were "selected by peer nomination" as "highly creative." Out of the resulting 107 "highly creative" mathematicians, architects, research scientists and writers, only three were S's. A 2½-page table presents the results of multiple other studies correlating various measures of creativity (from students majoring in the arts to people working in creative fields), and N's are always in the majority (and often quite overwhelmingly).

And all these N majorities are particularly noteworthy in light of the fact that N's are typically reported to make up only around 25-30% of the general population.

It's widely accepted (and I agree) that the Big Five Openness to Experience factor is essentially tapping into the same underlying human temperament dimension as MBTI S/N, and being high on Openness (the Big Five equivalent of an N preference) is associated with aesthetic interests of all kinds (in both the verbal and non-verbal arts).

The Big Five Inventory is one of the more well-regarded (and academically sanctioned) Big Five tests, and its 44 items include the following three (all of which test for Openness to Experience):

  • "Has few artistic interests" [reverse-scored]
  • "Values artistic, aesthetic experiences"
  • "Is sophisticated in art, music, or literature"
Getting back to Appendix D to the MBTI Manual: It includes lists of occupations "empirically attractive ... to the sixteen types," based on the CAPT MBTI data bank. Specific occupations are listed in mixed case and composite occupational categories are shown in UPPERCASE. The rankings in each list are based on the percentage of the applicable type making up the total number of respondents in the listed occupation (or occupation category). So, for example, the fact that dental assistant is the #5 occupation on the ISFP list doesn't mean it's the fifth most common occupation among the ISFPs in the CAPT database. It means instead that, among the dental assistants in the CAPT database, the percentage of ISFPs was higher than the percentage of ISFPs for all but four other occupations.

In the spoiler are the "top 40" (out of around 200 categories) from the ISFP list.



It'd be hard to miss the creative/artistic streak running through that list.

And meanwhile, the ISFPs' bottom 40 (again, out of 200) include:

Photographers
ARTISTS AND ENTERTAINERS
Musicians and composers
Writers, artists, entertainers, and agents, miscellaneous
Actors

By contrast, the INFPs' top 40 include:

Writers, artists, entertainers, and agents, miscellaneous
Teachers: Art, drama, and music
Actors
ARTISTS AND ENTERTAINERS
Musicians and composers
Designers

One of the the best-known MBTI books centered around careers is Tieger & Barron-Tieger's Do What You Are. Their INFP careers include the following "Creative/Arts" list:

  • Artist
  • Writer: poet/novelist
  • Journalist
  • Entertainer
  • Architect
  • Actor
  • Editor
  • Musician
  • Information-graphics designer
  • Editor/art director (magazine)
The corresponding ISFP list is called "Crafts/Artisan":

  • Fashion Designer
  • Carpenter
  • Jeweler
  • Gardener
  • Tapestry worker
  • Potter
  • Painter
  • Dancer
  • Designer: interior/landscape
  • Chef
And no, it isn't likely Bob Dylan's an ISFP — and if you're interested, you can read more about that here.
 

badger055

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If it makes you feel any better I think Se creative types will be more memorable because they have that aggression and presence. Intuitives don't have that edge. Ti and Fi are also more individualistic.

Just look at ESFPs they have no intuition or Ti but they dominate singing and acting.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Bob Dylan. Confirmed ISFP. And no one has changed music more than him. He set kind of a domino effect in motion.

And yes, I've read the arguments to the contrary, but they aren't very good ones.
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
If it makes you feel any better I think Se creative types will be more memorable because they have that aggression and presence. Intuitives don't have that edge. Ti and Fi are also more individualistic.

Just look at ESFPs they have no intuition or Ti but they dominate singing and acting.

Meh. ESFP music depresses me.
 

Forever_Jung

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Lmao

That's debatable.

Coming from a huge Dylan fan, btw.

It's all debatable, but I'm in the isfp camp myself. I also love Bobby D. I rather like your taste in music, Saudade! I had "Tomorrow is a Long Time" on repeat after a break-up, and it got me through.

But yeah, as much as I'd love to debate his type, I'm in the wrong thread. Lots of great ISFP musicians, even without him though. Pretty sure my girl Joni Mitchell is ISFP. Joni can paint, design fashion, write ballets, and most importantly--make music! Blue is definitely a desert island disc for me. :wubbie:

She is the quintessential ISFP artist
 

reckful

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Joni Mitchell definitely belongs in the singer-songwriter pantheon along with Dylan.

And she's every bit as likely to be an S.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
I was a film major and have taken a number of visual art classes and a number of creative writing classes, so I've really run the spectrum of the creative arts. I would say there were a lot of ISXPs and a number of ENXPs in the film and visual art classes, while in the writing classes it was primarily ENFPs and xNFJs. Oddly, in both, I always felt like an iconoclast, when you'd think these areas would be overflowing with INFPs. Trends that I noticed (although there were of course always exceptions and I am speaking on extremely broad terms here):

ISFP art would typically leave you with a good feeling/ be funny/ silly/ endearing but would also be visually striking/unique. I think most cartoon artists- those who may write graphic novels about real life but then change their characters into animals or cute monsters- are ISFPs. An artist that I suspect is an ISFP that I particularly like: http://www.topshelfcomix.com/catalog/james-kochalka I think ISFPs are extremely influenced by their etype, likely the most of any type, so there is a lot of variation, but there tends to be a playfulness to it, I've noticed- even when addressing difficult themes. ISFP art seems to have a broad appeal- even if it's quirky and weird, there's something about it that most people can identify with.

ISTPs were the technically/ visually accurate obsessives. When evaluating my art (which tends to be more about the feelings and somewhat bizarre/grotesque/odd), they'd point out how the figures were out of proportion or how my shot was out of focus or if I would have used this particular filter the colors would be truer. When in the visual arts, I think they tend to end up being cinematographers/ professional photographers or visual artists who do photographic realism. Technical acuity is key.

ENFPs I think are mostly prevalent in the verbal arts, although there were also a lot of ENXPs in my film classes. They tended to do the most shocking stuff, but in a playful/cheeky way. They were the least self conscious, so they'd really put themselves out there for all to see. Lots of confessional/memoir sort of stuff.

XNFJs seemed to emphasize personal/community transformation in their writing, like something Oprah would pick for her book club. The writing professors were also typically XNFJs so they really fed off of each other.

The rare INXPs were the straight up weirdos. We'd show our stuff, and our fellow INXPs would get it, but the rest of the room would be relatively silent. I think they'd also be surprised because we'd be showing an aspect of ourselves they never saw otherwise, a hidden intensity.

Edit: I failed to mention- I think there are also a lot of ISFJs who are creative writers and are in the visual arts. I think they tend to create 'by the book' and do extremely perfect work. They seem to be the ones most prevalent in the arts and crafts side of things- quilting, period costume making, weaving, etc, and their writing tends to be more formulaic. Their style will be more traditional and consistent while the ISFPs will be more impulsive and whimsical.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Lmao

That's debatable.

Coming from a huge Dylan fan, btw.

That he's a confirmed ISFP? There is no way that anyone can really "confirm" any one's type, so that's sort of a joke.

But despite working with words, there is something almost non-verbal about his approach to them . In interviews, it reminds me a lot of ISXP laconic-ness. The way he uses words is so different from the way I use words that I think a Se aux must be at work.

Is the only argument for preferring intuition over sensing is that he is creative? That's a weak argument.

Or is your disagreement that no one has changed music more than him? Hyperbolic, perhaps, but he did have a big influence.
 
N

ndovjtjcaqidthi

Guest
That he's a confirmed ISFP? There is no way that anyone can really "confirm" any one's type, so that's sort of a joke.

But despite working with words, there is something almost non-verbal about his approach to them . In interviews, it reminds me a lot of ISXP laconic-ness. The way he uses words is so different from the way I use words that I think a Se aux must be at work.

Is the only argument for preferring intuition over sensing is that he is creative? That's a weak argument.

Or is your disagreement that no one has changed music more than him? Hyperbolic, perhaps, but he did have a big influence.

Na, I wasn't talking about his type.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Messages
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I've known a lot of ISFPs who also mistyped their self as INFP, ENFP and INFJ. These were the ISFPs who were heavily into liberal arts or hippies or into philosophy or were more of a hipster. I wonder if many on those lists were actually sensing preference who saw their self as intuitive preference.
 

Lady_X

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I was a film major and have taken a number of visual art classes and a number of creative writing classes, so I've really run the spectrum of the creative arts. I would say there were a lot of ISXPs and a number of ENXPs in the film and visual art classes, while in the writing classes it was primarily ENFPs and xNFJs. Oddly, in both, I always felt like an iconoclast, when you'd think these areas would be overflowing with INFPs. Trends that I noticed (although there were of course always exceptions and I am speaking on extremely broad terms here):

ISFP art would typically leave you with a good feeling/ be funny/ silly/ endearing but would also be visually striking/unique. I think most cartoon artists- those who may write graphic novels about real life but then change their characters into animals or cute monsters- are ISFPs. An artist that I suspect is an ISFP that I particularly like: http://www.topshelfcomix.com/catalog/james-kochalka I think ISFPs are extremely influenced by their etype, likely the most of any type, so there is a lot of variation, but there tends to be a playfulness to it, I've noticed- even when addressing difficult themes. ISFP art seems to have a broad appeal- even if it's quirky and weird, there's something about it that most people can identify with.

ISTPs were the technically/ visually accurate obsessives. When evaluating my art (which tends to be more about the feelings and somewhat bizarre/grotesque/odd), they'd point out how the figures were out of proportion or how my shot was out of focus or if I would have used this particular filter the colors would be truer. When in the visual arts, I think they tend to end up being cinematographers/ professional photographers or visual artists who do photographic realism. Technical acuity is key.

ENFPs I think are mostly prevalent in the verbal arts, although there were also a lot of ENXPs in my film classes. They tended to do the most shocking stuff, but in a playful/cheeky way. They were the least self conscious, so they'd really put themselves out there for all to see. Lots of confessional/memoir sort of stuff.

XNFJs seemed to emphasize personal/community transformation in their writing, like something Oprah would pick for her book club. The writing professors were also typically XNFJs so they really fed off of each other.

The rare INXPs were the straight up weirdos. We'd show our stuff, and our fellow INXPs would get it, but the rest of the room would be relatively silent. I think they'd also be surprised because we'd be showing an aspect of ourselves they never saw otherwise, a hidden intensity.

Edit: I failed to mention- I think there are also a lot of ISFJs who are creative writers and are in the visual arts. I think they tend to create 'by the book' and do extremely perfect work. They seem to be the ones most prevalent in the arts and crafts side of things- quilting, period costume making, weaving, etc, and their writing tends to be more formulaic. Their style will be more traditional and consistent while the ISFPs will be more impulsive and whimsical.

This was interesting.

My isfj sister is one if those artists that can draw almost anything she sees and do it very well but says she can't ever think if anything to draw or paint and doesn't really feel inspired to do it anymore but she does like crafty stuff a lot. Any thing that requires following directions. She can just nail it. Like making elaborate cakes or following a pattern on a dress or whatever.

My mothers infj art is very moody... It's about something. It means something to her. It's a story etc but it's also very detailed and intricate and layered etc
Also she's a beautiful writer and just has a very poetic way about her.

My dad and my sister both enfps have a very abstract style. My dad painted and sculpted. His style was very cool. My sister designs fashion but her art sketches are amazing and she's been commissioned for pieces and murals n stuff. She doesn't get the appeal. She just sees them as design sketches. But they're mad cool actually.

It's interesting... The different shapes ones creativity takes.

And stansmith!! You're really very cool. Please stop being down on yourself. Isfp are awesome. Se is awesome. I haven't decided if I think that fits you yet or not but really. Wtf is the problem?
 

reckful

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I've known a lot of ISFPs who also mistyped their self as INFP, ENFP and INFJ. These were the ISFPs who were heavily into liberal arts or hippies or into philosophy or were more of a hipster. I wonder if many on those lists were actually sensing preference who saw their self as intuitive preference.

I suspect it's more likely that you've known a lot of NFs who correctly typed themselves as NFs but subsequently got bamboozled into thinking they were "really" ISFPs — sometimes by cognitive functions aficionados on internet forums and sometimes by sources that told them ISFP was the quintessential artist type.

You know who I mean. The kinds of people who often come out N on respectable dichotomy-based tests and consider themselves Enneagram 4's and have psychology and the arts as their main interests. Those kinds of people. :alttongue:
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
Based on my Itunes playlist, in terms of quality..

1-INFJ
2-ISFP
3-INFP

I find INFP music a bit disjointed for my taste, although more interesting lyrically/conceptually than my ISFP examples. It's a wash if anything. Anyway..my typings could be way off for all I know.
 

Sunny Ghost

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I suspect it's more likely that you've known a lot of NFs who correctly typed themselves as NFs but subsequently got bamboozled into thinking they were "really" ISFPs — sometimes by cognitive functions aficionados on internet forums and sometimes by sources that told them ISFP was the quintessential artist type.

You know who I mean. The kinds of people who often come out N on respectable dichotomy-based tests and consider themselves Enneagram 4's and have psychology and the arts as their main interests. Those kinds of people. :alttongue:
I meant they believe they are not ISFP, when I'm positive they are through years of knowing them and observing them.



Based on my Itunes playlist, in terms of quality..

1-INFJ
2-ISFP
3-INFP

I find INFP music a bit disjointed for my taste, although more interesting lyrically/conceptually than my ISFP examples. It's a wash if anything. Anyway..my typings could be way off for all I know.
I think I tend to be attracted more to xNxP music. I can't think of too many ISFP examples that I listen to other than Lana del Rey and Tegan and Sara. Do you have a Last.fm account? I'd be interested to see what types of music you listen to. :)
 
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