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Visual Reading of Cognitive Types

RaptorWizard

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Just because you see something doesn't mean it's the reality.

Why? Because people see what they choose to see!

We tend to see things in terms of confirmation biases.

If we're conditioned to think this expression means that function in all cases, then the exceptions may not be detected.

Sometimes people aren't even acting naturally; they're just going through premeditated processes.
 

chaoticbrain

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Well it definitely seems like most people on the ct forum don't heed that advice, at least. I really wanted to approach it with an open mind but-

Patti Smith and Leonard Cohen TeNi? Bob Dylan TiSe? I see stuff like that and feel no reason to pay attention.

Well I haven't seen the thread for Patti Smith, but I vaguely remember her being a type which was incredibly hard to tell from her polar and therefore we didn't draw a definite conclusion ? Which might be why we don't list her here.

http://www.pinterest.com/filippomedas/teni-cognitivetypes/

As for Bob Dylan, what about him doesn't seem TiSe ? He very much has the TiSe "I'm a badass" vibes.
 
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brainheart

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As for Bob Dylan, what about him doesn't seem TiSe ? He very much has the TiSe "I'm a badass" vibes.

I cannot tell you how much Fi doms, especially when heterosexual male, feel the need to cover the sensitivity with a badass vibe.
 

chaoticbrain

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I cannot tell you how much Fi doms, especially when heterosexual male, feel the need to cover the sensitivity with a badass vibe.

I don't think sensitivity is necessarily related to being Fi-lead, but one thing to keep in mind, is that my impression of him being TiSe was just based on looking at him for a bit, I'm not 100% sure. It's possible he's an Fi-lead lacking tension.

Edit: actually not he's 100% TiSe through CT method.

Fe polar smile (doesn't go high up on the face



TiSe "I'm so awesome".

 

Sunny Ghost

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I'm not sure if anyone has commented on this yet... but the Fi vs Fe smile: I'm not sure I can fully agree. I don't think it's a fully reliable method to rule out Fi from Fe. I think we look like we're snarling when we're trying to hold back or hide our smile/emotion. But in times where we don't feel the need to hide or hold back, the smile is more full, extending to the ears.
 

chaoticbrain

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I'm not sure if anyone has commented on this yet... but the Fi vs Fe smile: I'm not sure I can fully agree. I don't think it's a fully reliable method to rule out Fi from Fe. I think we look like we're snarling when we're trying to hold back or hide our smile/emotion. But in times where we don't feel the need to hide or hold back, the smile is more full, extending to the ears.

Check out my post half way down the page.

http://cognitivetype.boards.net/thread/282/fi-tension

Keen observation on your part :). But it's Fe user trying to hide their smile that actually looks like Fi snarl. I actually haven't seen anyone besides myself that's like that though. o.o So it's kind of rare and I haven't seen it confuse things.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Check out my post half way down the page.

http://cognitivetype.boards.net/thread/282/fi-tension

Keen observation on your part :). But it's Fe user trying to hide their smile that actually looks like Fi snarl. I actually haven't seen anyone besides myself that's like that though. o.o So it's kind of rare and I haven't seen it confuse things.
Perhaps it's both types. In general, the desire to hide a smile comes out as a snarl.
 
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brainheart

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I don't think sensitivity is necessarily related to being Fi-lead, but one thing to keep in mind, is that my impression of him being TiSe was just based on looking at him for a bit, I'm not 100% sure. It's possible he's an Fi-lead lacking tension.

Edit: actually not he's 100% TiSe through CT method.

Fe polar smile (doesn't go high up on the face



TiSe "I'm so awesome".


Well, your method is free to make any conclusions it wants but I'm going to disagree, both with the methods and the conclusions.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I think there's something to this, actually. I remember in the 7th grade we discussed metacognition, and how different processes are linked to different eye movements--visual looks up, audio looks sideways, kinesthetic looks down. Stuff like that.

So, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that different cognitive processes were related to different eye movements and/or expressions. I'm not sure I buy it wholesale, since there are many cultural and other factors that could play into this, and some people seemed to be mistyped by this method (Hitler was no ENTJ). But, I think it's worthy of exploration.

In my own case, I have witnessed a lot of what they claim is Ne/Si and Te/Fi in the videos I've shot of myself (poor quality lighting and poor quality cameras cause me to reserve judgement at present, though), which are the axes I'm most identified with. I haven't seen the "pained" INFP expression, though, unless I'm deliberately emoting.

I'd like to compare INFP and ENFP, though, so I hope they update soon!!
 
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Stansmith

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Some interesting typings from the forum:

Morrissey - TeNi (ENTJ)
David Lynch - SiTe (ISTJ)
Russell Brand - NiFe (INFJ)
Jack Nicholson - NiFe (INFJ)
 

OrangeAppled

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^ Exactly why determining someone's personality type going by their actual displayed personality makes more sense than using just their facial movements.
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION] Russell brand is NeFi, jack nicholson is probably SeTi.

The person who typed Russell brand as NiFe was probably new to visual reading.
 

Cellmold

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David Lynch strikes me as unusual for ISTJ, but maybe I am being biased?
 

reckful

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Hell, if Morrissey can be an ENTJ, David Lynch could even be a Queen Anne tea table.
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]

Well the version of the MBTI you talk about is practically the polar opposite of this, so of course the reads aren't going to make sense. Concepts like N vs S and T vs F have no relevance here.
 

reckful

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Hell, if Morrissey can be a Te-dom, David Lynch could even be a Queen Anne tea table.
 
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brainheart

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[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]

Well the version of the MBTI you talk about is practically the polar opposite of this, so of course the reads aren't going to make sense. Concepts like N vs S and T vs F have no relevance here.

Fair enough. But then what is this system explaining or categorizing? How in any way could Morrissey or Leonard Cohen's personalities be explained by stating their dominant function is Extroverted Thinking? No one would read Jung and come to that conclusion about either one of them.
 

chaoticbrain

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Fair enough. But then what is this system explaining or categorizing? How in any way could Morrissey or Leonard Cohen's personalities be explained by stating their dominant function is Extroverted Thinking? No one would read Jung and come to that conclusion about either one of them.

To be honest, I don't know much about either of them, so I can't really comment on that.

This system measures in my opinion cognition in the brain which doesn't necessarily imply direct personality traits in individuals, it can only predict correlations in people. Innovators will more likely be Si/Ne, fashion designers and athletes will be Se-leads very often etc. But theres people who don't fit those stereotypes at all.
 

reckful

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This system measures in my opinion cognition in the brain which doesn't necessarily imply direct personality traits in individuals, it can only predict correlations in people. Innovators will more likely be Si/Ne, fashion designers and athletes will be Se-leads very often etc. But theres people who don't fit those stereotypes at all.

Auburn's introductory VR video says that "Jung had a very 'right' understanding of the psyche, but since he didn't provide a tangible way of measuring the functions — then what resulted was a debate and division among practitioners," and he says his own "Cognitive Type theory" is "based on Jung's work directly," and that's why, rather than the MBTI four-letter labels, his cognitive types "are named after the psychic functions they use."

Buut... anytime I've looked into Auburn's stuff, I've always been struck by the contradiction between his claims that his typological perspective is very much Jungian and the large differences between what he says about the functions and the types and what Jung wrote.

Jung spent more of Psychological Types talking about extraversion and introversion than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together. He viewed extraversion/introversion as the most fundamental division underlying his types, and Chapter X — the only part of PT where he gets into the functions in any detail — is organized accordingly. The first half of the chapter is devoted to "The Extraverted Type" and the second half to "The Introverted Type" — and the eight "function-types" consist of four varieties of the "extraverted type" and four varieties of the "introverted type." So it's clear that, as Jung saw it, you couldn't be, say, a Te-dom without also being an extravert.

And, assuming you're correct in asserting that Auburn's "system" is measuring something "in the brain" that "doesn't necessarily imply direct personality traits in individuals," then whatever brain-things Auburn's measuring must not have much to do with Jung's brain-things (as Jung viewed them) because, in addition to describing lots of psychodynamic under-the-hood stuff, Jung also extensively described the "personality traits" that he associated with extraverts and introverts, and with his eight function-types.

If Morrissey — who's famous for his painful, awkward shyness and his reclusiveness — was a Jungian Te-dom, then Morrissey would be a Jungian extravert. And, contrary to your implication that Morrissey might well be an extravert (or a Te-dom) in some kind of deep, hidden-away-in-the-brain way that wasn't reflected in his "personality traits" to any substantial degree, here's some of what Jung had to say about extraverts:

Jung said:
[Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.

Jung said:
Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...

The actual subject, the extravert as a subjective entity, is, so far as possible, shrouded in darkness. He hides it from himself under veils of unconsciousness. The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...

The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.

As [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] has noted, Morrissey also bears little resemblance to Jung's descriptions of Te and Te-doms — which, like his descriptions of extraverts, include lots of associated "personality traits." And if CT's strange "TeNi" Morrissey typing looked more like the exception that proves the rule, that would be one thing, but CT typings have been routinely causing forumites (here and at other forums) to roll their eyes for over a year and a half now.

Auburn's certainly welcome to devise a typology based on visual readings that doesn't necessarily connect up with somebody's "personality traits" to any significant degree — but in that case I don't think he should be claiming that his system is fundamentally Jungian, or using Jung's function terms to label his types.
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]

Wasn't Carl Jung even in that quote referring more to groups and generalizations than individuals in the first place though ? As you probably know he said.

"Through compensation there arise secondary characters, or types, which present a picture that is extraordinarily hard to decipher, so difficult, indeed that one is even inclined to deny the existence of types in general and to believe only in individual differences".

That is Jung clearly thought characteristics around extroversion and introversion could be seen in a more generalized way, but when it comes to individuals their type is not so easy to tell apart, pretty much exactly what I was saying up there.

I think saying "Jung had a very correct understanding of the psyche" may have been wrong on his part depending exactly what he meant, but it's not on the level your talking about.
 
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