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  1. #61
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticbrain View Post
    I think I kind of see what you mean about the "vagueness" which exists within humans, but if one has no objective standard then imo, it can't be that useful in studying trends in humans. I still think CT would be useful even if it's not measuring exactly the functions, because atleast then we can have a non-ambiguous way of measuring someone's type.
    Things like personality theory can also be useful in helping a person gain insight about themselves and others. That's my interest. And the introspection involved in uncovering your type and the type of others I think is one of the most important parts of the process, for it develops a shift in perspective when it comes to understanding the self. I would rather have to dig deeply to figure this all out vs have someone look at me and tell me. What is gained by that?

    What type exactly is it measuring, if it's not 'exactly' measuring the functions? How is that non-ambiguous?



    Just looking for an opinion of someone who has experience with this. Thanks for answering.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Things like personality theory can also be useful in helping a person gain insight about themselves and others. That's my interest. And the introspection involved in uncovering your type and the type of others I think is one of the most important parts of the process, for it develops a shift in perspective when it comes to understanding the self. I would rather have to dig deeply to figure this all out vs have someone look at me and tell me. What is gained by that?

    What type exactly is it measuring, if it's not 'exactly' measuring the functions? How is that non-ambiguous?



    Just looking for an opinion of someone who has experience with this. Thanks for answering.
    Well, I personally think introspection should be involved, but your introspection should be around how your functions have affected you in your life and so on imo. One thing to note too, is we tend to think of the function pairs as "races" of the human race in a way, they don't tell you things about someone's personality per se, but rather about how someone's mind functions, theres going to be correlations around that when looking at people as a group, but each individual is very different.

    This video may be relevant.


  3. #63
    Member chaoticbrain's Avatar
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    It's interesting though too, that you guys mentioned changing the terminology because of the differences with Jung's theory, we've talked about this before.



    I mentioned though that I thought this was too mystic sounding, and that might be one of the reasons we never ended up implementing this ^. Though looking back on it I wonder if that would have been a good idea, it's probably too late to implement now though.

  4. #64
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticbrain View Post
    Well, I personally think introspection should be involved, but your introspection should be around how your functions have affected you in your life and so on imo. One thing to note too, is we tend to think of the function pairs as "races" of the human race in a way, they don't tell you things about someone's personality per se, but rather about how someone's mind functions, theres going to be correlations around that when looking at people as a group, but each individual is very different.

    This video may be relevant.

    I didn't mean to imply the introspection should end once you figure out your functions, not in the slightest.


    As far as the video goes, I think Jung enables you to see how it works in humanity as well. But I get what he's saying. And I agree it's good to look at patterns. I really don't disagree with most of his ideas (although I do think he overemphasizes typing people via physical characteristics), and I can really see the Fi/Te in people vs the Fe/Ti. I think that's pretty obvious. I have a harder time getting a handle on the perceiving functions- maybe perception signals are a little more subtle. Anyway-

    My primary criticism of the method is that I think if you're going to type someone off of a ten minute video, you should expect a large margin of error, especially when it comes to what leads and what's secondary. People behave differently when they are talking to others vs a camera, and can be a lot more reserved with certain people and a lot more expressive with others. It's interesting, because a video of a good friend of mine was used on the cognitive types website as an example of a FiNe who "actually got it right". I told him about this, because he didn't know it was there (and I knew he would never give permission) and he said, "Oh, I hated that video, I was so uncomfortable and miserable and didn't feel like I was being the real me at all." And it made me laugh, because the FiNe video put out by cognitive types really does seem to emphasize uncomfortable, awkward FiNe vs how people who use FiNe can be when around friends or when relaxed. It's almost as if this characteristic is stressed to prove the point that they have the sad face, while for SeFi the videos are overwhelmingly 'sassy'. I guess it makes it easier to see the type, but I wonder if it creates a caricature vs an honest, well-rounded portrayal.

  5. #65
    Member chaoticbrain's Avatar
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    @brainheart I agree that those words could be a big generalization, but I think it's less of a generalization than other things.

    I'm looking at Fiona apple, and I think she's actually an SeFi who isn't "sassy" though her general way of acting is very much Se-lead.

  6. #66
    Stansmith
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    @chaoticbrain

    How about kid Cudi?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    @chaoticbrain

    How about kid Cudi?

    I'm pretty sure he's TiSe.

    Notice his face is naturally relaxed all the time compared to the interviewers apparent tension (Ti/Fe).

    His rigid posture



    His smile doesn't go high up on the face, as is generally the case with T-leads.

  8. #68
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticbrain View Post
    @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7140" target="_blank">brainheart</a> I agree that those words could be a big generalization, but I think it's less of a generalization than other things.

    I'm looking at Fiona apple, and I think she's actually an SeFi who isn't "sassy" though her general way of acting is very much Se-lead.
    How is her general way of acting very much Se-lead? I'm especially curious because: 1. She's pretty much universally typed INFP and therefore Fi/Ne. 2. She does the FiNe pained expression which is considered a FiNe unique signal. 3. I've been told many times I look like her and she does seem to talk in a very similar way to me (although I definitely talk more slowly and have far more pauses/ am more stiff/rigid). 4. She seems so Fi lead to me.


    "pained" expression at around 5:07 (one example of many I've seen her do):



    Edit: Ah, I see this is less a pained expression and more the Se/Ni scowl because her eyes remain manic.

    So I'm wondering... what does one do with the information of one's type as determined by cognitive type visual reading?

  9. #69
    Member chaoticbrain's Avatar
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    @brainheart

    She is considered "INFP" on MBTI websites because she has depth and so on, not because she's cognitively Ne/Si. She actually has very heavy Ni, and that's one of the reasons she might come across as introverted or being Fi-lead. SeFi are on average no less deep than NeFi, often times artistic/deep people are mistakenly thought of as FiNe.

    In reality these pictures would be nearly impossible from someone who is J-lead. And they display a classic gaze that Se/Ni lead users have.



    The "FiNe pained expression" is not really unique to FiNe, and erifrail has noted this, I'm not sure if at the time they really thought it was only in FiNe or if they had just meant there was a specific flavor of the cue only occurring in FiNe, but it is basically just Fi and Pi occurring at the same time, it is by far the most common in FiNe, but SeFi would be in second place.

    I posted her on the cognitive type board and some of the members noted her heavy Ni, which I agree with. (at the bottom of page).

    http://cognitivetype.boards.net/thre...cussion?page=2

  10. #70
    brainheart
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    @chaoticbrain,

    I see what you mean about the photos (there is no way a photo of me would ever look like that either. I hate having to even look at a camera. In most pics I'm looking downward).

    Why would SeFi be second to FiNe in the pained look rather than FiSe?

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