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Thread: Fi and anger

  1. #31
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I curious about your ideal, when it comes to how you would choose someone presenting their anger to you (when it’s directed at you). I’ve written a bunch of questions- any/all answers are appreciated, even if only one question feels worth answering. FWIW: I’m not going to ask further questions or participate here (unless directly asked to) because I don’t want to inadvertently do what Fe does and invalidate feelings. I really just would like to hear the answers.


    How important are these things:

    • saying something right away, instead of taking some time to calm down first, even if it means some unnecessarily harsh things and unfair accusations will likely be said.
    I think there's no excuse for really laying into someone and saying cruel things. It's fine to say "I'm angry and irritated" (or whatever), but there's no reason to go for blood and intentionally act to wound and hit people's vulnerable points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    • waiting until they can have a rational/calm tone.
    I'm 100% for not being blasted with undue emotional upset. I'm fine if someone says, "I'm too angry/upset/whatever to talk about this right now, can we talk about it in an hour?" (or whatever the timeframe is). I'd much rather have someone call a time out than get blasted with unfair nastiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    • waiting until they can present rational/calm content. [Iow: how upsetting is it to be accused of something that you would never do by someone you consider close- even if they keep a calm tone? Or even if it isn’t someone close- is it agitating or does it feel condescending to be ‘accused’ (for lack of a better word) of something that seems petty to you, even with a calm tone….does it feel like someone ‘should know better’ or ‘should have thought about what they’re saying first’?]
    I find being accused of bad intentions to be upsetting. I try to understand how others mean well, and appreciate when I'm given the same level of understanding. On the other hand, I'm painfully aware of my own pettiness and irritability. I know I have negative impulses and that others do, too. I'm not inherently "guilty" for such impulses (given that they are human and universal), but to be judged by them when I haven't acted upon them is unfair. I try to keep that in mind when dealing with others, too, and give them a reasonable benefit of a doubt. I feel that part of friendship is assuming the best, and going to the source before you judge someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    • if someone is very angry, would you prefer/would you mind if they went to a 2nd party to discuss it before coming to you, if it would help them get rid of the unnecessarily harsh/unfair content?
    I think I'd feel somewhat exposed (and possibly judged) if they went to a third party. I would, of course, understand if it were a close friend whom they needed as a sounding board. Still, I think I'd feel a bit awkward around said person, given that they'd heard a subjective view of how terrible I've been. I'd almost always prefer to try to resolve things directly, first, before a third party is involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    • is there anything important (that I missed in above points) about how you’d define a “respectful” approach to having anger presented to you?
    I think my list includes "no cheap shots/going for the throat", "be honest, but respectful" and "calling for a time out is fine." I want to hear what was upsetting/angering, without hearing "you made me feel..." or "you always ..." or "you never...". Conversely, I'm fine hearing (even when it's painful), "When you do X, it comes across as you communicating Y".

    I also find it hard to take to suddenly hear a backlog of N months of complaints ("two months ago, you didn't say dinner was good, and THEN you didn't thank me for emptying the dishwasher!!!") I'd rather hear about things relative soon after they happen. "You've been doing it wrong for months" is hard to take, even if I realize that sometimes such things only become clear after the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    • specifically, what sorts of things create ‘white noise’ for you in conflict? Maybe a better way of describing ‘white noise’ (it’s been discussed around here before) would be the feeling of urgency like a baby crying or a dog barking- just an urgent feeling, a distinct distraction that something needs attending to. [I get the feeling having someone say they don’t feel <whatever feeling> when it seems clear to you they do is among this, feel free to set me straight if this doesn’t feel correct.]
    For me, I think I big disconnect between what someone is saying and what they are emoting is a distraction. I really don't want people to falsify their emotions, but I also understand that many people have no idea how they are feeling in the moment. Still, it's really difficult for me to wrap my head around "I'm fine" or "I'm not angry" when the person is clearly not fine or is angry.

    I'm okay someone saying "I don't know how I feel" or "I need time before I talk about it" (although those things may occasion worry on my part if it goes on very long).

    I also find "why did you do X" comes across as "how could you be so stupid as to do X" or "how could you possibly justify X?" I appreciate it when it's clear that the intent is to understand, rather than judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    And similarly I guess, how hard is it for you to adhere to those^ things yourself? Do you find it difficult to wait to express anger? Do you actually have to put effort into holding back expressing it, or does it take more (maybe even far more) effort to express it?
    I'm not particularly good at expressing anger. Once every five years or so I get really angry, but even then it's contained and I don't lash out... it's very contained and cold in those cases. Otherwise, I find it easy to be momentarily irritated, but generally that's mostly an internal and quickly passing thing. I do my best not to strike out at others when I am angry/irritated, because I know that the damage of a few precisely aimed barbs can do... sometimes the damage can't be undone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Finally: in your experience, what is the most difficult part of that process (of expressing it yourself)? [e.g. Nailing down exactly what you’re feeling? Nailing down exactly why you’re feeling it? Finding the words to express it?]
    Personally, I find I'm usually hyper-aware of what I'm feeling, and generally I can articulate it pretty well. When expressing what I'm feeling will hurt the other person and/or upset them, I find it difficult to bring up and discuss, partially because I want to avoid weathering the intensity of the response (some 5-ish cowardliness there, I think).

    If the other party is super upset, I may get overwhelmed by that and lose my normal emotional awareness, but that's very rare.

  2. #32
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'm 100% for not being blasted with undue emotional upset. I'm fine if someone says, "I'm too angry/upset/whatever to talk about this right now, can we talk about it in an hour?" (or whatever the timeframe is). I'd much rather have someone call a time out than get blasted with unfair nastiness.
    Yeah. That's pretty much what I need in these situations. If we talk about it then and there, I can't guarantee that I'm going to keep it under control. So if you want it to be under control, you need to give me time. Trust me, talking about it then so you don't have to "sit with this" is going to make that situation worse, not better.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #33
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    IHow important are these things:

    • saying something right away, instead of taking some time to calm down first, even if it means some unnecessarily harsh things and unfair accusations will likely be said.
      Say it as soon as you can. An hour or a day to calm down are one thing, but as others have said, storing up grievances for weeks and months is unacceptable.
    • waiting until they can have a rational/calm tone.
      Important, to the extent that tone indicates the presence of enough emotion to cloud judgment and rational thinking, and even inhibit self control. If someone really can converse rationally while acting angry, I still don't prefer it due to the often literal "noise" it adds. It just makes it hard to concentrate, while serving no useful purpose.
    • waiting until they can present rational/calm content. [Iow: how upsetting is it to be accused of something that you would never do by someone you consider close- even if they keep a calm tone? Or even if it isn’t someone close- is it agitating or does it feel condescending to be ‘accused’ (for lack of a better word) of something that seems petty to you, even with a calm tone….does it feel like someone ‘should know better’ or ‘should have thought about what they’re saying first’?]
      I expect rational content. I won't and almost cannot address anything else. I will wait for it if I must. It doesn't feel condescending to be acused of something petty, it just seems -- well, petty. A pointless waste of time over trivialities. Now a pattern of seemingly petty things can start to be important, so please explain clearly what this entails and we can address it.
    • if someone is very angry, would you prefer/would you mind if they went to a 2nd party to discuss it before coming to you, if it would help them get rid of the unnecessarily harsh/unfair content?
      If that is what it takes for them to calm down and gain some perspective on the event, then yes, providing they don't just badmouth me to the other person, or share private details with someone who won't keep their confidence.
    • is there anything important (that I missed in above points) about how you’d define a “respectful” approach to having anger presented to you?
      Frankly I am more interested in the cause of the anger than the anger itself. If you tell me why you are angry, especially if you are angry at me, perhaps we can work out a solution. If all you have is anger, there is nothing much I can do about that. If you are close to me and just need to vent, I will listen. If I don't know you well, but you feel you need to tell me you are angry to help explain the situation, I will listen to a point. In either case, a calm presentation is preferred. The closer we are, the more tolerant I will be of departures from this.
    • specifically, what sorts of things create ‘white noise’ for you in conflict? Maybe a better way of describing ‘white noise’ (it’s been discussed around here before) would be the feeling of urgency like a baby crying or a dog barking- just an urgent feeling, a distinct distraction that something needs attending to. [I get the feeling having someone say they don’t feel <whatever feeling> when it seems clear to you they do is among this, feel free to set me straight if this doesn’t feel correct.]
      I'm not sure what you mean. I consider "noise" to be any unproductive, distracting communication, whether that be yelling, insults, hyperbole, deliberate taunting/mischaracterization of past events, and of course any kind of physical behavior like door slamming or throwing things. This is just a (supposed) adult having a temper tantrum. I don't worry too much about inconsistency between someone's words and their manner for reasons I have explained elsewhere. I will trust someone's words, because I cannot translate the rest reliably. If they do not accurately convey someone's meaning, the person should not have spoken so.


    And similarly I guess, how hard is it for you to adhere to those^ things yourself? Do you find it difficult to wait to express anger? Do you actually have to put effort into holding back expressing it, or does it take more (maybe even far more) effort to express it?
    I have learned over the years to address almost any situation without significant expression of anger. I do what I described above: ask myself why I am angry, then whether the person with me can do anything about it, then what the best approach is. Then I do what I can to follow through. I cannot remember the last time I said something "in anger" that I regret, or that was not a well-considered opinion. I see no need to discuss my emotional state with most people, except for the barest of explanations when dire circumstances are particularly taxing. When I do discuss it with those closest to me, it is almost invariably with a calm manner, and reasonable detachment. So, I don't so much express anger as describe it.

    Finally: in your experience, what is the most difficult part of that process (of expressing it yourself)? [e.g. Nailing down exactly what you’re feeling? Nailing down exactly why you’re feeling it? Finding the words to express it?]
    Seeing the benefit of expressing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - What feels harsher to you - an unfair comment on your actions or on your motivations? Do qualifying phrases from the other person like "it feels like..." make a difference, or does it still feel like a pejorative statement when someone says how your actions make them feel? What is a better way to go at it?
    What do you mean by unfair? Either the comment is accurate, or it is not. If accurate, it still might serve no purpose to make it, and not be relevant to the situation. I will usually attempt to correct inaccurate statements about my actions, unless the point is trivial and doing so would detract from the main point. I will address comments about motivation if it seems necessary.

    Yes, "it feels to me . . . " makes a big difference, because just as someone cannot tell me what my real motivation is, I cannot tell them how they feel. They are entitled to their feelings, but not to revising my motivations, or historical fact.


    - Do you instinctively understand how to relate to other Fi users' anger, or is it individual in every case?
    I find it hard to relate to the anger itself. I am more than willing to discuss the situation when they have calmed down.

    - Are you bothered by it when you feel someone is upset but doesn't express it right away? Does it feel like they are trying to lie to you in some way when they do so?
    Not really. I don't discuss being upset with most people, and don't expect others to discuss it with me. I feel they are trying to lie only if they actually lie, but to realize this, I would have to know the truth. I tend to assume people will keep these thoughts to themselves, unless they concern me directly.

    - What makes you feel that an issue between you and another person is resolved?
    When we have discussed it to the point that we understand why it happened, and have some idea of how to prevent or avoid it in future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Of course but it feels like you've missed the point.

    If your reaction is to yell. I want to know that shit. If your reaction is to say a lot of hateful vindictive things. I want to know that too and waste a lil less time finding this out about you.
    Would you not prefer people exercise some control and express themselves with more civility? I'm not sure what is accomplished by regaling someone with the 55 ways you can blow your stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Basically, all I'm saying is that I don't think good things get accomplished by everyone being real all the time. I think having layers is important. Though the deepest one probably shouldn't make people cry. It should be fried first by exposure to heat, and then it becomes sweet.
    Why not? You seem to be assuming that real is bad, hurtful, out of control. I for one don't ever want fake. I can understand the layer metaphor very well. I am like that, too. For me, though, all the layers are real, with each just containing more information. Strangers get only the outer, superficial layer. Colleagues get a few more, etc. Put another way, no one gets the whole truth, but no one gets falsehoods, either.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #34
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I agree pretty much with everything @Seymour said. But I'll make a few extra personal notes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [*]saying something right away, instead of taking some time to calm down first, even if it means some unnecessarily harsh things and unfair accusations will likely be said.
    [*]waiting until they can have a rational/calm tone.
    Calm communication is preferable, but I sometimes willingly engage in an argument. I can't really think of a specific situation where I may prefer an instant response right now, but there may be some. Perhaps, if someone starts to get into it with me and then leaves things hanging without explain WTF is going on, I might be displeased. I don't know. The tone doesn't matter too much unless I feel that their emotions are seriously impeding their ability to rationally communicate and listen (eg. intense anger, aggression, snarkiness). I sort of expect that if someone's upset there will be an emotional tone to what they say.

    [*]waiting until they can present rational/calm content. [Iow: how upsetting is it to be accused of something that you would never do by someone you consider close- even if they keep a calm tone? Or even if it isn’t someone close- is it agitating or does it feel condescending to be ‘accused’ (for lack of a better word) of something that seems petty to you, even with a calm tone….does it feel like someone ‘should know better’ or ‘should have thought about what they’re saying first’?]
    Being falsely accused has been a serious sore point for me; few things rile me up more. I've really lost it with people for this reason. Same goes for telling me I'm 100% wrong about something. I can handle being wrong, but I can't take being spoken to in absolute 'objective' truths. It's pushy, obnoxious and nonsensical (all which really irritate me). So I guess I would say that content probably matters to me more than tone.

    [*]if someone is very angry, would you prefer/would you mind if they went to a 2nd party to discuss it before coming to you, if it would help them get rid of the unnecessarily harsh/unfair content?
    Not really. I mean, I think it's fair enough that some people need to confide in others about their problems - I don't think it would be right for me to deny them this. It's just not something I would ever recommend or encourage if I knew someone was angry at me. I would want them to talk to me openly and sort it out.

    [*]is there anything important (that I missed in above points) about how you’d define a “respectful” approach to having anger presented to you?
    I like it to stay more on topic. I really dislike discussions that turn into a character assassination, by bringing up and detailing all your faults and past screw ups. My Mum does this to my Dad when they argue and it really pisses me off. Sometimes the subject matter does relate to wider concerns, but you can't use your intimate knowledge of a person against them. That can feel like a massive betrayal.

    [*]specifically, what sorts of things create ‘white noise’ for you in conflict?[*]
    Much like what Seymour said, the emotional tone not matching the content. If someone dances around a subject, makes hints, or tries to somehow to indirectly impact their feelings on me - that is incredibly distracting for me. I don't mind if it's difficult to get across or they don't really want to talk about it, but I don't get why people actively pretend they don't feel something they do. It means I'm caught trying to work out which to respond to and address: what they're saying or what they're feeling.

    Do you find it difficult to wait to express anger? Do you actually have to put effort into holding back expressing it, or does it take more (maybe even far more) effort to express it?
    I'm an irritable person by nature, so a lot of effort goes into keeping that to myself. I recognise the difference between meaningful anger and stuff I just need to get over. Mostly it's the latter.

    Finally: in your experience, what is the most difficult part of that process (of expressing it yourself)? [e.g. Nailing down exactly what you’re feeling? Nailing down exactly why you’re feeling it? Finding the words to express it?]
    The what and why of my feelings is no problem at all. I sometimes can have difficulty articulating the full complexity of my thoughts/rationale clearly and sufficiently on the spot - especially in emotionally charged situations. Too much emotional noise (from me and others) can shut down my brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - What feels harsher to you - an unfair comment on your actions or on your motivations? Do qualifying phrases from the other person like "it feels like..." make a difference, or does it still feel like a pejorative statement when someone says how your actions make them feel? What is a better way to go at it?
    Unfair comments on my motivations are worse. I prefer people tell me their side of the story, than dictate to me what the overall story is. The latter feels like they're saying they know the story so much better than I do (ie. implying the problem is one sided: me) and I'm being told how to think or feel about it. So "I/me" statements are better than "you" statements.

    - Do you instinctively understand how to relate to other Fi users' anger, or is it individual in every case?
    I'm circumspect about saying yes to all cases, but I often do get it. I remember being told about a time my sweet, mild-mannered ISFP friend went to see Sin City with a bunch mutual friends and her boyfriend at his insistence. Apparently when they walked out she had a massive meltdown; ranting and raving about the sexist content and at her boyfriend for really liking the film. The mutual friends seemed stunned and freaked out by this, but it makes perfect sense to me, even before I saw the film.

    - Are you bothered by it when you feel someone is upset but doesn't express it right away? Does it feel like they are trying to lie to you in some way when they do so?
    No. I realise some people need more time and space than others.

    EDIT: Wait, do you mean they're acting all pissy and refusing to talk about it? That would bother me. I really don't like being punished without a fair trial, so to speak.

    - What makes you feel that an issue between you and another person is resolved?
    Tough question. I once had a nasty argument with someone that never got resolved in a way that satisfied me, even though we were on pleasant terms afterwards. I still can't figure out what was missing. I guess an apology isn't always necessary, but there has to be some acknowledgement that there was a problem and also that there isn't one now.
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  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm not certain how this relates to Fi-users, but I've always wondered about something. When a person says something hurtful in anger, do they on some level actually believe it? I've always thought they must, even if it is an exaggeration. I think I mean what I say, even if it is over-stated when angry.

    Most of my life I've gone into seclusion until I get my emotions under control. The times I have expressed anger towards someone directly leaves me feeling raw, all sunburnt inside. The aftershock is worse than the feeling of the outburst. It never leaves. I don't know how that relates to Fi or Fe, though.
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  6. #36
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'm not certain how this relates to Fi-users, but I've always wondered about something. When a person says something hurtful in anger, do they on some level actually believe it? I've always thought they must, even if it is an exaggeration. I think I mean what I say, even if it is over-stated when angry.
    To me, it's just one piece of information; a sign. It may be meaningless or it might be a sign of something more significant. Usually, I only start to make judgments once I see some sort of pattern (although the sources of information may be very disparate). I may react negatively in the moment but that doesn't mean that feeling will be permanent.

    However, like Seymour said there is a line. If someone hits below the belt they better be really sorry about it afterwards, and never do it again. Regular below the belt hits are a betrayal of confidence. IMO anyway.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #37
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    Why not? You seem to be assuming that real is bad, hurtful, out of control. I for one don't ever want fake. I can understand the layer metaphor very well. I am like that, too. For me, though, all the layers are real, with each just containing more information. Strangers get only the outer, superficial layer. Colleagues get a few more, etc. Put another way, no one gets the whole truth, but no one gets falsehoods, either.
    I think people look at the layers, and say "that's fake... be more real." I don't lie, but I omit things quite a bit. I don't put everything out there, and I kind of like it when other people do the same thing. I like to feel like it meant something that I was told this stuff.

    I try to do what I feel like is appropriate for the situation, and the fact that some people would call that fake is kind of ridiculous.

    I do think some people don't have layers, or maybe only two of them. They pretty much act the same way with everyone. They see me doing the layers thing, and say that I'm being fake.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'm not certain how this relates to Fi-users, but I've always wondered about something. When a person says something hurtful in anger, do they on some level actually believe it?
    I assume that they do. In fact, when I get this outburst from someone, I'm able to look at their past behavior and attitudes towards me, and then conclude... "Oh, now I get it. "

    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    The times I have expressed anger towards someone directly leaves me feeling raw, all sunburnt inside. The aftershock is worse than the feeling of the outburst. It never leaves. I don't know how that relates to Fi or Fe, though.
    I relate to this, although I'm not sure that it never leaves. I remember it, though.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    What does inferior Se denote?
    Inferior Se lends a physical quality to anger expression. The person will likely feel like expressing themselves in a physical way. Se is associated somewhat with aggression.

    Triggers inferior Se in general can be dealing with overwhelming details, unexpected events, and excessive extroverting (according to my book on inferior functions), and forms of expression can be obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasure, and an adversarial attitude toward the external world. I didn't think it fit at first since I can't obviously see these things in myself, but then I read a thread on here about it and the things people said resonated. Adversarial attitude toward the external world can take the form of excessive planning and paranoia, being prepared for disasters; one also may secretly fear being weak and so overcompensate by trying to attain physical power through exercise or martial arts. INFJ's in particular seem to exaggerate their inner power and fear that they are really dark and dangerous inside and should never let their temper go.

    All these things are not bad in and of themselves of course; it's really good to be prepared for things. It just shows a person being out of proportion and off balance at times.

  10. #40
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Triggers inferior Se in general can be dealing with overwhelming details, unexpected events, and excessive extroverting (according to my book on inferior functions), and forms of expression can be obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasure, and an adversarial attitude toward the external world. I didn't think it fit at first since I can't obviously see these things in myself, but then I read a thread on here about it and the things people said resonated. Adversarial attitude toward the external world can take the form of excessive planning and paranoia, being prepared for disasters; one also may secretly fear being weak and so overcompensate by trying to attain physical power through exercise or martial arts. INFJ's in particular seem to exaggerate their inner power and fear that they are really dark and dangerous inside and should never let their temper go.
    This is often associated with INTJs as well, especially the paranoia and contingency planning aspect. I have never seen it attributed to inf Se, though; usually Ni, or Ni-Fi loops.
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