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  1. #21
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Gamma quadrant here.

    We tend to be plain spoken and straight-shooting. We keep our word and work hard. I think other quadrants tend to view us as "serious" types. There's a strong sense of personal integrity and code. I don't think I'm better than anyone, but do tend to think most people are full of shit. The best word for us is likely "saturnine".

    As far as the other quadrants go, I mostly just tend to know them by vibe, but that's how I do most things with typology. I use the descriptors as a way to articulate energies and patterns that I was already aware of, which is why I don't really understand threads like this. Read the descriptions, internalize them, then just pin the tail on the right donkey. The end.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #22
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I'm not sure that my default mode is necessarily merry

    or are you? ok take a step back from the exact adjective and compare yourself to Te users: typically, when a Te user studies something, it's because it's useful, but when a Ti user studies something, it's usually because it's interesting. so even done in a serious tone, isn't there something essentially non-serious about the later approach? like children gravitating towards the most mentally stimulating source around them... in many ways Ti isn't maturing from that, it's learning how to max it out.

    "merry" is probably not the best word choice in terms of the exact associations it provides, but from what i gather (which is still very much a first impression of socionics btw), i get the sense that it is essentially trying to convey "the opposite of serious".

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I also think the detached nature of Ti is in some way more compatible with Fe broadcasting. The attitude of Fi towards things seems to be the opposite of detached. Fi seems as though it has an attached attitude towards everything... attached used here in the sense of "engaged and invested in". I'm not sure how to describe what Fe does other than in terms of broadcasting, but it's not so diametrically opposed.
    that's awesome you used those words - attached & detached.... because i once had a theory that this difference was the basis of how Fi (& Te) / Fe (& Ti) forms in the first place:

    every infant has the experience of having their actions disapproved of by their authority figures & caretakers - this is the earliest exposure & seeding for ethical information.

    when a child has an earlier formation of identity - a traumatic separation of "self" & "world" - this information is detached and associated with the external subjects - with the authority figures themselves - your ethical guidelines is information about the outside and what the people outside are feeling. this information starts coming in at such an early age that the child often doesn't have yet a full grasp of the language and content, so he learns to navigate through ethical information through paying attention to the undertone, implications, social cues & the surrounding reactions (Fe).
    lacking any internal direction, the child will take in whatever information stimulates him to play with, and will thus experiencing most of his cognitive dissonance between the internalized information - the stress of cognitive dissonance in his case will come from whatever stands in the way of putting the pieces of information together, and he logic becomes a coherence seeking logic, trying to make sense of how thing fits together (Ti).

    when a child experiences a slower gradual formation of identity, there is no immediate rejection of information as "external", so he forms an identity inclusive of the ethical information he has absorbed throughout that process - it is attached to the self. "right" and "wrong" aren't the feelings of someone else, they are included within his emotional structure as moral notions of right and wrong. while those earliest instructions aren't going to be the moral code they child builds up, they are the mental schema's on which that code gets built - and since much of the earliest instructions a child gets have to do with not being allowed to do what would hurt themselves, they often develop it based on learning what will hurt them, essentially learning to extend it to others through the golden rule (Fi).
    the gradual forming identity of the child doesn't only include the mental schema's of ethical information, it also includes everything else the child - his likes and dislikes, his wants & desires. the child learns to apply his logic externally to provide or that - it becomes goal oriented logic designed to correct the cognitive dissonance between the desired state he experiences and the existing state he observes (Te).

    if this is true, then the detachment of alpha's and beta's is result a sharp traumatic formation of identity, while the attachment of gamma's and delta's is the result of a gradual inclusive formation of identity - regardless of which type you are within your quad.
    Last edited by Society; 10-18-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  3. #23
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    Holy crap, I can't believe you posted Zang!

    I'll just outline the technical definitions here (outside systems of Typology): 1, 2, 3, 4.

    And now for my definitions (wow, they're so complex):
    1. Existence
    2. Structure
    3. Direction
    4. Willpower

  4. #24
    Stansmith
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    I'm actually more Delta than Gamma, based on the dichotomies. Probably has to do with my enneagram type.

  5. #25
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vetani View Post
    Yep. :P

    Merry/serious in this context literally means that, whereas for judicious/decisive one is more lax than the other. The former being more go-with-the-flow, the latter being more mobilized.

    Edit: it should be noted that Fe/Fi color the merriness/seriousness of the group, since we know that F functions mainly deal with human interaction.

    That's not to say Ti doms are NOT serious, they are; just that when it comes to group interaction they prefer it to be merry, where they depend on the Fe dom to merry everything up.
    wait... so i'm looking at model A and how each type description fits it, and... why are the quadra's organized by the ego and super-id?

    for instance - for alpha's - in the ENTp/INTj descriptions Ne-Ti are in the ego block and Fe-Si are in the super-id block, and vise versa for the ESFj/ISFp descriptions, which are respectively 1 & 2 and 7 & 8 in the list from model A, and their common trait from the table is that they are the "strong" functions, but then bellow in the description of the strong/weak dichotomy it says that the strong functions are supposed to be the ego and the id, so the super-id (and the super-ego) are supposed to be the weak functions...

    i'm confused

  6. #26
    #KUWK Kierva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    wait... so i'm looking at model A and how each type description fits it, and... why are the quadra's organized by the ego and super-id?

    for instance - for alpha's - in the ENTp/INTj descriptions Ne-Ti are in the ego block and Fe-Si are in the super-id block, and vise versa for the ESFj/ISFp descriptions, which are respectively 1 & 2 and 7 & 8 in the list from model A, and their common trait from the table is that they are the "strong" functions, but then bellow in the description of the strong/weak dichotomy it says that the strong functions are supposed to be the ego and the id, so the super-id (and the super-ego) are supposed to be the weak functions...

    i'm confused
    Basically, quadras are arranged according to ego and super-id; where these two positions show the valued functions of each type.

    For you, ILE,

    Ego:
    Ne (base)
    Ti (creative)

    Super-id:
    Si (suggestive)
    Fe (mobilizing)

    According to classical socionics, since your super-id functions are weak, you seek Si and Fe from others. You are looking to open up this side of yourself.

    As for super-ego, it means that your Se and Fi are weak, suppressed. If engaged, you will be under great stress.

    Id is something you're good at, but you don't value it. Because you don't value it, you tend not to pay attention to it; treating it as "eh, I didn't even try".

    http://www.socionics.us/theory/model.shtml
    C#2-C#5-F#5
    3 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone
    Supported range: F#2-F#4-C#5

  7. #27
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    or are you? ok take a step back from the exact adjective and compare yourself to Te users: typically, when a Te user studies something, it's because it's useful, but when a Ti user studies something, it's usually because it's interesting. so even done in a serious tone, isn't there something essentially non-serious about the later approach? like children gravitating towards the most mentally stimulating source around them... in many ways Ti isn't maturing from that, it's learning how to max it out.
    I don't mind you using me to prove a point. It was just such an interesting post that I wanted a space where I could fully engage with it. I had this same impression of Ti, but I couldn't quite articulate it. The detached nature of Ti is playful in it's own way.

    "But what are you going to use your knowledge of where there used to be trolley tracks for?"

    "I dunno, kind of don't really care if I ever use it. I just like knowing that."

    "merry" is probably not the best word choice in terms of the exact associations it provides, but from what i gather (which is still very much a first impression of socionics btw), i get the sense that it is essentially trying to convey "the opposite of serious".
    Yes. Everyone thinks of STJs as serious, but in their own way, NFPs are too. Sure, they can be creative or whimsical, but they don't like people not giving "weight" to that, and it seems to bother them. The whimsy is kind of always "about" something. It's not for it's own sake.



    every infant has the experience of having their actions disapproved of by their authority figures & caretakers - this is the earliest exposure & seeding for ethical information.

    when a child has an earlier formation of identity - a traumatic separation of "self" & "world" - this information is detached and associated with the external subjects - with the authority figures themselves - your ethical guidelines is information about the outside and what the people outside are feeling. this information starts coming in at such an early age that the child often doesn't have yet a full grasp of the language and content, so he learns to navigate through ethical information through paying attention to the undertone, implications, social cues & the surrounding reactions (Fe).
    lacking any internal direction, the child will take in whatever information stimulates him to play with, and will thus experiencing most of his cognitive dissonance between the internalized information - the stress of cognitive dissonance in his case will come from whatever stands in the way of putting the pieces of information together, and he logic becomes a coherence seeking logic, trying to make sense of how thing fits together (Ti).

    when a child experiences a slower gradual formation of identity, there is no immediate rejection of information as "external", so he forms an identity inclusive of the ethical information he has absorbed throughout that process - it is attached to the self. "right" and "wrong" aren't the feelings of someone else, they are included within his emotional structure as moral notions of right and wrong. while those earliest instructions aren't going to be the moral code they child builds up, they are the mental schema's on which that code gets built - and since much of the earliest instructions a child gets have to do with not being allowed to do what would hurt themselves, they often develop it based on learning what will hurt them, essentially learning to extend it to others through the golden rule (Fi).
    the gradual forming identity of the child doesn't only include the mental schema's of ethical information, it also includes everything else the child - his likes and dislikes, his wants & desires. the child learns to apply his logic externally to provide or that - it becomes goal oriented logic designed to correct the cognitive dissonance between the desired state he experiences and the existing state he observes (Te).

    if this is true, then the detachment of alpha's and beta's is result a sharp traumatic formation of identity, while the attachment of gamma's and delta's is the result of a gradual inclusive formation of identity - regardless of which type you are within your quad.
    See.... this is interesting. Because my parents are delta, or Te-Fi, and my sister is Beta,and I am Alpha... we are both Fe-Ti. I wonder if there is a relationship between the types of parents and the types children that is independent of genetic factors. Probably, even if what you said isn't on the mark.

    Te and Fi are both very goal oriented. Fi seems to kind of point Te and tell it where to go... or at least, that is how it is supposed to work, I think. Maybe the things that bug me about Fi only happen when the communication to Te breaks down somehow.

    I remember having to write some essay about what my dream was in high school, and I had a really hard time thinking about it beyond "marry a hot chick and live in the woods somewhere." I really don't have this strong source of motivation, although I wish I did at times.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  8. #28
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    See.... this is interesting. Because my parents are delta, or Te-Fi, and my sister is Beta,and I am Alpha... we are both Fe-Ti. I wonder if there is a relationship between the types of parents and the types children that is independent of genetic factors. Probably, even if what you said isn't on the mark.
    i've wonder that too... the earliest i can set the "formation" is in infancy, but as for why some of us react traumatically to the formation of identity and others do so gradually, i don't know - it could be a factor of upbringing, or genetic, or genetic tendencies that influence parental instincts which then influence upbringing, or any other combination. i don't suppose we can get dario nardi to start doing DNA scans in addition to brain scans?

    i feel your pain - both my parents are FiTe'rs too:


    from this (and your family too), it does seem like Ti-Fe can easily skip a generation... actually it almost looks like that old dominant/recessive chromosome scheme from biology 101.. but if this was the case, then why are there so many alpha's and delta's (ISFp are by far the most common types)?

  9. #29
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    from this (and your family too), it does seem like Ti-Fe can easily skip a generation... actually it almost looks like that old dominant/repressed chromosome scheme from biology 101.. but if this was the case, then why are there so many alpha's and delta's (ISFp are by far the most common types)?
    '
    I think my paternal grandma might have been an INFp . Not sure about my Grandpa except for being some kind of thinking type... he seemed a little more Te than Ti, though.

    Maternal grandparents are even harder, because I never met them, but my grandpa sounds like an ISTj, and my grandma like some kind of Fe type. (My mom sounds like she used to complain about Fe "'fakeness" in her, and simultaneously feels guilty for doing that.)


    Also, the 50s and 60s were very different times, so that could be throwing things off, too.

    What do you mean by the dominant/repressed chomosome scheme? Do you mean recessive? Also, I've heard of Daario Naardi, and I have that other thread bookmarked so I can respond to that. Because it seems very intriguing.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  10. #30
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What do you mean by the dominant/repressed chomosome scheme? Do you mean recessive?
    yes - ty - recessive was the word i was looking for

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    my grandma like some kind of Fe type. (My mom sounds like she used to complain about Fe "'fakeness" in her, and simultaneously feels guilty for doing that.)
    hahaha - - that's almost exactly how i figured that my maternal grandmother was probably ISFJ (my mom complained about her "fakeness", about how reserved she was, about her nagging attention to details & procedures and the "proper ways of doing things", etc...).

    i also picked ESTP because of how my ENTJ grandmother used to complain about her ex husband (my grandfather) never being able to see more then how things looked like right in front of him, never thinking where his actions leads or having any foresight, telling her that it's meaningless crap when she tried talking about philosophy or striving for meaningful actions...
    the ExTP part is also somewhat based on the assumption that i am typed correctly, because when i got a little older she started to make comparisons between my logic and my grandfather's which seem to relate to Ti breakdowns and Fe engagement, with constant N-leeway ("but he was an idiot who couldn't see beyond what stood right in front of him, your head is always somewhere")... suggesting that we had shared judging functions.

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