Why does everyone hate ESFJs? (Warning.... yet another Fe vs. Fi discussion)

[thoughtlost]

Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to hate another human being. Sure, I was roommates with a person I suspect (but doesn't have to be) and ESFJ (But I am just about certain of her being a type 2). I did not like that she couldn't respect my shyness and wouldn't give me space so I dreaded going back to my dorm every day. Still, I like that she's helpful and more proactive than I am. She probably won't talk to me anymore because she really didn't like how I didn't interact with her much. She said she felt uncomfortable around me and she doesn't like it when I dened her help whenever she offered it... and we had to talk about who was going to move out.

...but yeah. Maybe I could be an ESFJ. idk... people don't tell me that I suck as a person, but it's always possible that I actually am a sucky person. Even though I am friendly and I like "dah peace, man" (...my hippy voice), wish I was invisible to others.

 

[HongDou]

yeah, they love the greeting cards and the holidays. And I am a big big flake about these things.

/flashbacks to my ENFJ mother getting genuinely upset about me not writing thank you notes to those who came to my graduation party

 

[Cellmold]

/flashbacks to my ENFJ mother getting genuinely upset about me not writing thank you notes to those who came to my graduation party

I hate stuff like that.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

[MENTION=4660]msg_v2[/MENTION] Well I can only speak for myself but I'm indifferent to greeting cards and holidays. I only want to be in a relationship with a person who sees me as an equal. I don't want to be taken care of or treated like a lady. I have never seen myself as a woman or a girl but as a human.

That's fair, but I've seen plenty of FJ women express those values also.

The concept 'Ladies Night Out' makes me break out in hives.

Why? Do you insist on hanging out with dudes every time you go out? Is there something to the concept I'm not seeing?

I don't cry in front of other people and I roll my eyes at my husband all the time for his overly demonstrative stating of feelings.

I think there are lots of FJs who don't go around crying willy-nilly. I don't know about you, but, assuming that FJ females are actually very common, it's very shocking that I don't see more women crying randomly about things, if, as you claim, being an FJ means crying a lot.

And my mom is undoubtedly an INFP, and yes, she would constantly criticize me and my IxFJ sister for not sending Thank You notes. And no, she does not actually have Fe. Inferior Te without a doubt.

I do doubt the claim that TJ women are seen as "more normal" than FJ women, however. That part I do dispute. I think there may be something to the claim that Extraverted Feeling is less socially acceptable than Introverted Feeling, potentially. I'm not entirely sure about that, so you may indeed be correct.

 

[HongDou]

I hate stuff like that.

It's like come on you were at the party and I obviously appreciated you being there or at least seemed like I did so do I really have to send you a card?

 

[Cellmold]

It's like come on you were at the party and I obviously appreciated you being there or at least seemed like I did so do I really have to send you a card?

Yeah my mum is like that with my birthday and Christmas. I've always stubbornly refused though, I don't even know why she follows the convention, no one else we know appears to, so who is it for?

 

[brainheart]

That's fair, but I've seen plenty of FJs express those values also.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Why? Do you insist on hanging out with dudes every time you go out? Is there something to the concept I'm not seeing?

I think there are lots of FJs who don't go around crying willy-nilly. I don't know about you, but, assuming that FJ females are actually very common, it's very shocking that I don't see more women crying randomly about things, if, as you claim, being an FJ means crying a lot.

And my mom is undoubtedly an INFP, and yes, she would constantly criticize me and my IxFJ sister for not sending Thank You notes. And no, she does not have Fe. Inferior Te without a doubt.

It appears I have to say things more clearly. I tend to speak more in ways where I'm going for the gist vs having very detailed answers.

Did I say cry 'willy nilly'. Um, no. I said I don't cry in front of people. Big difference. Fe users are more emotionally expressive. The feeling goes outward, not inward like it does with me. I have to work very hard to get my feelings out. And the best way to get them out is through art. The stereotype/ cultural expectation of females is that they are outwardly emotional. For this reason I am often perceived as cold and unfeeling, when I in fact feel things very strongly.

The females I know who use Fe tend to prefer the company of other women. My guess is because Fe is more common in women and more accepted by women so they feel like they are with their people. Most of my friends in my life have been male, yes. I do have female friends, too. But I'm just saying something about 'hanging out with the girls' seems to be a very Fe female thing that I haven't noticed in the Fi females I know.

 

[Stansmith]

ESFJ guilt-tripping at work.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah, that's probably

Did I say cry 'willy nilly'. Um, no. I said I don't cry in front of people.

I don't see FJ's do that. I already knew what you meant.

. I have to work very hard to get my feelings out. And the best way to get them out is through art.

The stereotype/ cultural expectation of females is that they are outwardly emotional.

There is nothing that is seen as feminine about being artsy? That's like, super common in Philly. I'm more surprised when I see a female who isn't that artsy.

The females I know who use Fe tend to prefer the company of other women. My guess is because Fe is more common in women and more accepted by women so they feel like they are with their people. Most of my friends in my life have been male, yes. I do have female friends, too. But I'm just saying something about 'hanging out with the girls' seems to be a very Fe female thing that I haven't noticed in the Fi females I know.

I prefer to hang out with mostly males IRL. Not because I don't think there are women I would like hanging out with, but more because sexual attraction always seems to be involved on some level. It seems to me that there's often icky awkwardness in these situations related to sexual attraction, either coming from me, or coming from the other person. You can say that you just see your male friends as people, but what would you do if one of them was attracted to you and you weren't? That's a sticky situation for everyone.

And you can say that "yes but men can be attracted to other men"?

True, but I never read gay or bisexual men complain about men pretending to be friends with them so they can trick them into sex. If people can make strong friendships with people of the gender they are attracted to work, more power to them, but I think they need to acknowledge the possiblity that at least one of the parties involved might have feelings of sexual attraction. That way, if it comes up, they aren't horrified.

I've been on both ends of this situation, and that's why I'm skeptical about it, although I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Just, it's been my experience that when a woman wants to be friends, part of her wants to bang me/date me. I don't have a problem with that, but if that does happen, and I suspect that to be the case, I should address that, so as to hurt the other person as little as possible. I've caused huge problems in the past by being chickenshit about doing that. At the end of the day, sexual attraction, if it's there (and it usually is), is a factor that should be acknowledged.

Obviously, if there's mutual attraction, and both parties believe it can work, then there is no problem at all.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

ESFJ guilt-tripping at work.

Heaven forbid someone actually call someone out on their bullshit. That made me like ESFJs more, not less. But, no, everyone is equally right, and no one is wrong, so heaven forbid someone do something like yell at someone. Let's all be accepting of individuality, even if people are being fuckfaces!

I'm sure that if someone yelled at me like that, I would probably deserve it. Also, I highly doubt that anger is "fake."

 

[Stansmith]

Heaven forbid someone actually call someone out on their bullshit. That made me like ESFJs more, not less. But, no, everyone is equally right, and no one is wrong, so heaven forbid someone do something like yell at someone. Let's all be accepting of individuality, even if people are being fuckfaces!

I'm sure that if someone yelled at me like that, I would probably deserve it. Also, I highly doubt that anger is "fake."

I have a love-hate relationship with it. She makes perfect sense, but ugghh.

 

[brainheart]

I don't see FJ's do that. I already knew what you meant.






There is nothing that is seen as feminine about being artsy? That's like, super common in Philly. I'm more surprised when I see a female who isn't that artsy.




I prefer to hang out with mostly males IRL. Not because I don't think there are women I would like hanging out with, but more because sexual attraction always seems to be involved on some level. It seems to me that there's often icky awkwardness in these situations related to sexual attraction, either coming from me, or coming from the other person. You can say that you just see your male friends as people, but what would you do if one of them was attracted to you and you weren't? That's a sticky situation for everyone.

And you can say that "yes but men can be attracted to other men"?

True, but I never read gay or bisexual men complain about men pretending to be friends with them so they can trick them into sex. If people can make strong friendships with people of the gender they are attracted to work, more power to them, but I think they need to acknowledge the possiblity that at least one of the parties involved might have feelings of sexual attraction. That way, if it comes up, they aren't horrified.

I've been on both ends of this situation, and that's why I'm skeptical about it, although I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Just, it's been my experience that when a woman wants to be friends, part of her wants to bang me/date me. I don't have a problem with that, but if that does happen, and I suspect that to be the case, I should address that, so as to hurt the other person as little as possible. I've caused huge problems in the past by being chickenshit about doing that. At the end of the day, sexual attraction, if it's there (and it usually is).

Obviously, if there's mutual attraction, and both parties believe it can work, then there is no problem at all.

I don't mean cry in front of random strangers. I mean their loved ones. ugh.

There's different kinds of artsy. My art is not feminine. And I'm not saying I'm 'not' feminine, I'm just not like a good many number of women. I've always felt different, female-wise. But probably not as different as an INTP female, say.

Friendship with the opposite sex can be tricky at times and sometimes those friendships have to stop. Whatever, it works for the most part for me, and I'm not going to cut off something potentially good because it may prove troublesome in the future. And yes, some of my closest guy friends have been gay. But I see that as irrelevant. I'm not friends with them because they're safe but rather because we are drawn to each other.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't mean cry in front of random strangers. I mean their loved ones. ugh.

You've honestly never cried in front of loved ones? You've never cried in front of any of your boyfriends? I'm not skeptical because you're a woman. I'm skeptical because you're a person.

I'd rather someone cry in front of me than pretend that things were "fine" when they weren't, and then snipe at me about stupid shit. Playing emotional detective is so tiresome.

Friendship with the opposite sex can be tricky at times and sometimes those friendships have to stop. Whatever, it works for the most part for me, and I'm not going to cut off something potentially good because it may prove troublesome in the future.

I definitely will. People love to say "no big deal" and then, what do you know? It ends up being a big deal, just like I thought it might be.

And yes, some of my closest guy friends have been gay. But I see that as irrelevant. I'm not friends with them because they're safe but rather because we are drawn to each other.

No, I was pre-emptively preparing for a "what if you were friends with a gay dude" response. Because that's what's happened in other discussions where this topic has come up. I didn't actually assume that you were friends with gay dudes.

 

[skylights]

Yeah, I love ESFJs. They're headstrong and glowing with warmth and socially astute and clever. They make me feel great. My mom is one and one of my best friends is one

They can get a little pushy sometimes, but as far as downsides go, I'll take it.

Incidentally I agreed with Tyra's rant, in a way, but I also feel like she took it a little far. I felt like Tiffany's carefree, joking attitude was her way of protecting herself from the huge emotionality and pressure of the competition, and Tyra seemed to miss that in favor of feeling the personal insult of someone not taking her show seriously. I mean, it is her show, and the girl did elect to be on it, but I still thought the whole thing was kind of overboard. I do admire Tyra because I feel like she likes to rip into issues and open them up instead of sweeping them under the carpet. She does seem pretty self-obsessed in general, though.

From my POV, they take offense and object to a lot of little things. The objection is really part of some bigger issue, either with myself, or with me, but the big issue is almost always avoided in favor of the small issues. It seems as though Fi is in touch with their emotions in the sense that they are in touch with their immediate reaction to things, but does not seem to be good at putting it all together and seeing what the real issue is. So even if I figure out on my own, they'll deny it, without even providing an alternative explanation

It's interesting to hear you say this because I can hear my INTP dad say the exact same thing about me. It feels very different from my perspective. It seems like he says clearly inflammatory, personal things without regard to who they may hurt or why. And then if I try to explain to him why what he's saying is hurtful, he will say I am being overly sensitive. Then he may do a similar thing of deciding for himself what the "issue" is and ignoring my viewpoint. It's frustrating to say the least.

I feel like you are an intelligent, amiable, reasonable person, so of course understand that I am voicing this to explain how it looks from the opposite end, not to say that you are wrong in your perspective. Fi and Ti lenses just seem very different at times.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

The concept 'Ladies Night Out' makes me break out in hives.

Why? Do you insist on hanging out with dudes every time you go out? Is there something to the concept I'm not seeing?

Hearing "we should have a girl's night" always makes me want to run for the hills too. I don't even know what it means, or what sorts of things happen during a "girls' night out"....yet somehow, I feel like it tells me everything I need to know. It's not because of gender per se, I think the association it has is because of the type of person who generally says it. I don't personally associate that type with Fe, it seems to me like FPs can be just as girly/frilly, but .

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's interesting to hear you say this because I can hear my INTP dad say the exact same thing about me. It feels very different from my perspective. It seems like he says clearly inflammatory, personal things without regard to who they may hurt or why.

He probably does. But he doesn't mean anything personal about it, if he's anything like me. It's more being oblivious than being full of malice. I like doing stuff like referencing a video I saw one time with Kermit the frog getting a blowjob. Because puppet sex is funny. It's just weird to me that someone would object to it because it taints their childhood or something. I just don't hold very many things sacred.

And then if I try to explain to him why what he's saying is hurtful, he will say I am being overly sensitive. Then he may do a similar thing of deciding for himself what the "issue" is and ignoring my viewpoint. It's frustrating to say the least.

So you feel like this is not being listened to. Interesting. For me, I can't figure out why, for instance, anyone would care that I splash some water on the inside of the sink. It's a sink. It's built for holding water. I get not liking sloppiness, but water in a sink? From my own personal observations, people really only complain about stuff like that if they are upset about something else. It may or may not have to do with me, but I can't fathom how someone could really be upset about a few extra drops of water on one of the walls of a sink. I find myself incapable of accepting that this is all that they are upset about.

Hearing "we should have a girl's night" always makes me want to run for the hills too. I don't even know what it means, or what sorts of things happen during a "girls' night out"....yet somehow, I feel like it tells me everything I need to know. It's not because of gender per se, I think the association it has is because of the type of person who generally says it. I don't personally associate that type with Fe, it seems to me like FPs can be just as girly/frilly, but .

See, I don't even know what type of person even says that. I don't know that I've actually known someone to say that, but I'm sure some women do.

Apparently we are equally clueless as to what a "girl's night out" actually is.

Somehow, I get the sense that it might involve something like Australia's greatest cultural legacy, Thunder From Down Under.

 

[Riva]

Thank you op for posting that. I really didn't know the inner circle part of them.

That really was a good post on behalf of them and goes to show that they aren't being fake but polite/accomodating to strangers. What a wonderful practical thing to do.

 

[skylights]

He probably does. But he doesn't mean anything personal about it, if he's anything like me. It's more being oblivious than being full of malice. I like doing stuff like referencing a video I saw one time with Kermit the frog getting a blowjob. Because puppet sex is funny. It's just weird to me that someone would object to it because it taints their childhood or something. I just don't hold very many things sacred.

Lol, yeah, that's totally something that's initially "ew!" to me and I want to not think about it. In recent years I've been trying to be more objective and see it for what it is, and understand that seeing something in a way that I'm not fond of doesn't destroy its meaning to me. My ISFJ occasionally does the Yoda voice saying sexual things because he knows it bugs me and it's creepy but hilarious.

So you feel like this is not being listened to. Interesting. For me, I can't figure out why, for instance, anyone would care that I splash some water on the inside of the sink. It's a sink. It's built for holding water. I get not liking sloppiness, but water in a sink? From my own personal observations, people really only complain about stuff like that if they are upset about something else. It may or may not have to do with me, but I can't fathom how someone could really be upset about a few extra drops of water on one of the walls of a sink. I find myself incapable of accepting that this is all that they are upset about.

That's probably true. I'd imagine it has something to do with the "greater ethic"- I assume this is an NFP you're talking about, who is likely to expand to a larger principle. Shoot, I'm proud of myself if water is all I get in the sink. Usually I get makeup all over it, too.

See, I don't even know what type of person even says that. I don't know that I've actually known someone to say that, but I'm sure some women do.

Apparently we are equally clueless as to what a "girl's night out" actually is.

You guys are funny. I had a group of three close female friends in college who I used to have regular "girls' nights" with, usually Thursdays during school or weekends when we weren't in school. Mostly it would involve going to our favorite bar late, ordering drinks and snacks, venting about our classes and our relationships and our lives and our families in general. Sometimes afterwards we would watch silly TV shows and make dessert.

We were all ExFx so I can see why an Ixxx might not be as into it, but it was fairly low-key, and I like to think that our group was fairly intelligent and insightful, not the giddy superficial stereotype. The other girls were an ENFJ psych BA major who is now in grad school for counseling, an ESFJ psych BS major who is now an RN, and an ESFJ lit major who is now a middle school teacher. I think especially during school we all saw it as a sort of "therapy"... it's good to be able to share things that have been weighing on you with people you like and trust. And it was something to look forward to during rough weeks. We were all very busy between our respective campus involvement, classes, work, and internships, and it was nice to have that night just for relaxing and letting go. Also, now that I'm living with my boyfriend, it's nice to have some time with just women friends every so often.

Sometimes my mom and I also have "girls' day out" where we go shopping for things we need, which is funny because she's an ESFJ but she's not super girly at all and we both get really sick of shopping pretty quickly.

 

[PeaceBaby]

From my POV, they take offense and object to a lot of little things. The objection is really part of some bigger issue, either with myself, or with me, but the big issue is almost always avoided in favor of the small issues. It seems as though Fi is in touch with their emotions in the sense that they are in touch with their immediate reaction to things, but does not seem to be good at putting it all together and seeing what the real issue is. So even if I figure out on my own, they'll deny it, without even providing an alternative explanation. They'll fit that pattern perfectly.

Hmm, you're not giving me much to go on here. If we use your example about Aragorn's love life above, can you fit that into a larger context? Were you having a serious conversation about LOTR and then made that comment kind of out of the blue, hoping it would be funny? I guess if you and I were talking about LOTR, and I thought we were having an interesting, serious discussion - that comment would seem so incongruous. It would make me pause because it would seem to have no purpose aside from some sort of shock value?

As far as showing irritation with you for it, that would only happen if it happened regularly and you and I were relationally close. For me, it makes conversation less enjoyable because it jars the flow of them. It makes me wonder if you're taking them as seriously as I or if you're poking fun at me for being serious about them. And the topic of your interjection makes it seem like you're about 10 years old.

Thus, if you were my brother for example, with this kind of pattern repeated all the time - in the short term, I might render annoyance and cut our conversation short as a form of avoiding the bigger conflict, yes.

Hence the criticisms I will surely receive that I am speaking not of patterns associated with introverted feeling (even though this even happens with at least one of the Extraverted Thinkers here), but of individuals. The observations are only true for the specific individuals I am speaking of, and cannot, ever, under any circumstance, be applied to to other Fi types to form some kind of conclusion.

There are patterns and I see them myself, but you need to remember that outer behaviour is not reliably trackable to type. One very consistent thing I've seen many of the INFP's here state is that they are not outwardly emotionally demonstrative, yet you seem to use examples of Fi doms who are outwardly emoting some sort of complaint with you. So, I feel there's a pattern mismatch happening somewhere, or else all of the Fi dominant people you speak of are very close to you (siblings, parents, close friends) and feel comfortable showing more of their judging sides.

Moreover, my attempts at reconciliation are sign as "fake", I suspect. I should have said the right thing from the beginning. Because, Fi is simply incapable of saying things that might offend me, obviously, and never makes those kinds of mistakes.

I find your grumpiness interesting. A reconciliation is only regarded as fake if the outer expression does not match an inner sense of your sincerity.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Lol, yeah, that's totally something that's initially "ew!" to me and I want to not think about it. In recent years I've been trying to be more objective and see it for what it is, and understand that seeing something in a way that I'm not fond of doesn't destroy its meaning to me. My ISFJ occasionally does the Yoda voice saying sexual things because he knows it bugs me and it's creepy but hilarious.

See, it's interesting, because for me, humor and playfulness is a sign that I'm happy. Taking things super-seriously is something I do when I'm not feeling that great.

That's probably true. I'd imagine it has something to do with the "greater ethic"- I assume this is an NFP you're talking about, who is likely to expand to a larger principle. Shoot, I'm proud of myself if water is all I get in the sink. Usually I get makeup all over it, too.

Yeah, and I think inferior Te might have been involved. I don't deny that I could be less sloppy, but I think water droplets on the sink is stretching things a little. It's not that she was neat, it was that lack of neatness really bothered her. Not the only INFP I've known to exhibit that pattern. But I'm weird about emoting, so there you go.

We were all ExFx so I can see why an Ixxx might not be as into it, but it was fairly low-key, and I like to think that our group was fairly intelligent and insightful, not the giddy superficial stereotype. The other girls were an ENFJ psych BA major who is now in grad school for counseling, an ESFJ psych BS major who is now an RN, and an ESFJ lit major who is now a middle school teacher. I think especially during school we all saw it as a sort of "therapy"... it's good to be able to share things that have been weighing on you with people you like and trust. And it was something to look forward to during rough weeks. We were all very busy between our respective campus involvement, classes, work, and internships, and it was nice to have that night just for relaxing and letting go. Also, now that I'm living with my boyfriend, it's nice to have some time with just women friends every so often.

So no shirtless Australian men just trying to make a living, you know, men at work?