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  1. #11
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I like Introverted Thinking because nobody else wuvs it. Poor introverted thinking needs wuv, too. Introverted Thinking is one of us. Just a stranger on the bus.
    Lol. Lots of INFJ's and INFPs love it too and think they are INTP's because of it. But it's not very warm and fuzzy.

  2. #12
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Lol. Lots of INFJ's and INFPs love it too and think they are INTP's because of it. But it's not very warm and fuzzy.
    I would agree with that. Not warm and fuzzy at all. And sometimes, it's merciless, like a judge that's made his ruling.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  3. #13
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    How I understand it:
    Having a hierarchy simply means more conscious to less conscious. Introverted functions work with extroverted functions, to balance subjectivity with objectivity. Information comes in and then is processed. The subject interacts with the object, the external world. Each person has two perceiving functions (S or N) and two judging functions (T or F) in their conscious 4, one extroverted and one introverted. Since a person can't process things using both at the same time, they have complimentary functions, and one will be used more of the time than the other. One of each (perceiving or judging) will be dominant and the corresponding function subservient to it. Like Ni is dominant over Se in INJ's; Ni is used to structure one's cognitive activity, and Se simply provides information and sensory experience, to be integrated by Ni. If feeling is secondary (Fe), then the third will be thinking (Ti); while an INFJ can use Ti perfectly well, it is most natural when balanced by Fe and in service to an Ni framework of understanding. Function hierarchy presumes that each person has a default mode of processing the world and which is most comfortable to be used most of the time.

    None is more preferable to any others, and each has its unique strengths and weaknesses, giving a predisposition to certain skills. For instance, being Fe dominant gives one the predisposition to excel at diplomacy and public relations, but depending on the individual and their circumstances, it may be developed into quite another skill set. It's also worth noting that the converse is not the case; one can't infer with any more than a very crude accuracy an MBTI type or the presence of certain cognitive functions simply by studying a person's skill set and lack thereof.

    Developing less conscious functions I think is a good idea, but it must be done more or less in order. This process naturally occurs as one ages/ experiences life, and one can accelerate the process. You must have a good handle on the functions higher in your consciousness before you can effectively consciously use the ones lower in consciousness. It's like building a tower of blocks, except in the reverse direction; you must have a stable foundation and lower layers before you can stack things on top; otherwise the whole thing will tip over. Or more accurately, you can compare it to a tree and how it grows. Naturally, as it adds height it adds strength in the lower portions. It does not branch out at the top so much that it becomes top heavy. But we usually envision function hierarchy as top-down, so the direction is reversed.

    This mistake happens when people get into dominant-tertiary loops. If a person is introverted, then both their dominant (first) and third functions will also be introverted, and the second one will be extroverted. Insufficient development of the secondary function, i.e. insufficient extroversion (and hence early development of a function lower in consciousness) can cause a person's perspective to be unbalanced. It's not a really bad thing, and it is a necessary coping mechanism for some people, but balancing the excess of introversion with extroversion is preferred because it provides objectivity. The same but opposite can be said about extroverts and insufficient introversion; not enough subjectivity will be developed, and the person will have to make an effort to be more introspective and self sufficient.

  4. #14
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    Ni and Fi are clearly the best functions - what better abilities to have than amazing awareness and passionate embrace!? Those things really give much more of a charge and life force.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Drinking a large barrel of beer to engage Se...
    rofl... i am pretty sure the whole "Se = sex drugs and rock'n roll" thing is a scam made to entice rebellious teenagers, and has very little to do with typology, except maybe the big 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksch88 View Post
    Interesting. What would be an example of an unhealthy use of a function?
    here's a more jungian example of inferior Se fail:
    when in stress, an INFJ may often see threats in the relationship, that may be grains of sand, but which the INFJ will hyperbolize into mountain ranges. this happens with both INFJs and INTJs. in stress, all INxJs can get stuck in the grip of their inferior extroverted sensing, which Roger Pierman in "i'm not crazy i'm just not you",describes in the following terms:
    "extroverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment - people, things and places.
    the fluid experience of information enables those using extroverted sensing to describe experiences well.
    but in its compensatory form, extroverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact,
    at times a simple smell can lead to the catastrophic conclusion that a relationship is over.
    there is no step-by-step logic leading to the conclusion; it is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at."
    ordinarily very good at connection observations to illuminate deeper meaning, when stressed it may be very difficult to get an INFJ to reexamine their trusted insight, as they may simply find new random facts to validate their perspective.

    - source

  6. #16
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    ^ ah, correct depictions of the functions always make me happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It was kind of an exagerration, but a lot of people do see it as dead, empty and joyless. I see it as a lamp, trying to illuminate everything, unafraid of what it might find in the shadows.
    My sister says that about me.

    If she only knew how happy I was draining the life force from everything around me.

    OP - a lot of comes down to personal philosophy, methinks.

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    This idea of "shadow functions" is just some fail theory that contradicts with the definition of what a functions are.

    Basic functions are just T, S, F and N and there is objective and subjective aspects in them. When a function is oriented by the subjective aspect, the objective aspect gets repressed to the furthest degree due to mistrust in the objective aspect. This trust in the subjective and repressing the objective means introverted attitude of a function and it should be obvious to people that you cant really trust and enforce an subjective orientation, while also mistrusting and repressing its opposite as they are mutually exclusive. So while Ti dom cant have Te, he can still have Fe as Fe doesent contradict with Ti. You need to see it as one judging function(T or F) being favored by the subjective world and the other is pushed towards its opposite, the objective world. Same goes with perceiving functions. For example if someone prefers to focus on the things that sensations bring in him instead of just purely focusing on the sensation itself, he can still focus on the possibilities in the objective world(have Ne). You see there is just one truth to people and only schizophrenics can hold two contrary truths. For an INTP the "truth" comes from the subjective logic, possibilities that lie in the objective world, what the sensations release in him and values in the objective world. While logic of the objective world is met with mistrust, ideas without any relation to objective world seem just crazy, sensation itself doesent represent the real truths but are just representations of deeper truths and values without any relation to the external world makes no sense.

    When jungians talk of the shadow(not those people who use the term shadow function, but those that invented typology and the term shadow), they are talking about things in yourself that you are not conscious of and are opposite to who you think you are. For example a humble person has a greedy shadow, king has a weak shadow etc etc
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    How I understand it:
    Having a hierarchy simply means more conscious to less conscious. Introverted functions work with extroverted functions, to balance subjectivity with objectivity. Information comes in and then is processed. The subject interacts with the object, the external world. Each person has two perceiving functions (S or N) and two judging functions (T or F) in their conscious 4, one extroverted and one introverted. Since a person can't process things using both at the same time, they have complimentary functions, and one will be used more of the time than the other. One of each (perceiving or judging) will be dominant and the corresponding function subservient to it. Like Ni is dominant over Se in INJ's; Ni is used to structure one's cognitive activity, and Se simply provides information and sensory experience, to be integrated by Ni. If feeling is secondary (Fe), then the third will be thinking (Ti); while an INFJ can use Ti perfectly well, it is most natural when balanced by Fe and in service to an Ni framework of understanding. Function hierarchy presumes that each person has a default mode of processing the world and which is most comfortable to be used most of the time.

    None is more preferable to any others, and each has its unique strengths and weaknesses, giving a predisposition to certain skills. For instance, being Fe dominant gives one the predisposition to excel at diplomacy and public relations, but depending on the individual and their circumstances, it may be developed into quite another skill set. It's also worth noting that the converse is not the case; one can't infer with any more than a very crude accuracy an MBTI type or the presence of certain cognitive functions simply by studying a person's skill set and lack thereof.

    Developing less conscious functions I think is a good idea, but it must be done more or less in order. This process naturally occurs as one ages/ experiences life, and one can accelerate the process. You must have a good handle on the functions higher in your consciousness before you can effectively consciously use the ones lower in consciousness. It's like building a tower of blocks, except in the reverse direction; you must have a stable foundation and lower layers before you can stack things on top; otherwise the whole thing will tip over. Or more accurately, you can compare it to a tree and how it grows. Naturally, as it adds height it adds strength in the lower portions. It does not branch out at the top so much that it becomes top heavy. But we usually envision function hierarchy as top-down, so the direction is reversed.

    This mistake happens when people get into dominant-tertiary loops. If a person is introverted, then both their dominant (first) and third functions will also be introverted, and the second one will be extroverted. Insufficient development of the secondary function, i.e. insufficient extroversion (and hence early development of a function lower in consciousness) can cause a person's perspective to be unbalanced. It's not a really bad thing, and it is a necessary coping mechanism for some people, but balancing the excess of introversion with extroversion is preferred because it provides objectivity. The same but opposite can be said about extroverts and insufficient introversion; not enough subjectivity will be developed, and the person will have to make an effort to be more introspective and self sufficient.
    Thank you, Greenfairy. This is extremely helpful and thorough. While I know that the hierarchy was never intended to be in order of value, people seem to have the sense that Jung did value some more than others. I guess I was curious about how that has evolved. And, about the shadow functions, how do you recognize it if you're engaging a shadow function or just an undeveloped aspirational? I suppose I should do some research on Dom-tert loops to answer that question. I really appreciate your thorough answer and didn't intend to dump my lack of knowledge on anyone .

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It was kind of an exagerration, but a lot of people do see it as dead, empty and joyless. I see it as a lamp, trying to illuminate everything, unafraid of what it might find in the shadows.
    I really like that description of it and think its accurate. I knew you were exaggerating. :-)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    This idea of "shadow functions" is just some fail theory that contradicts with the definition of what a functions are.

    Basic functions are just T, S, F and N and there is objective and subjective aspects in them. When a function is oriented by the subjective aspect, the objective aspect gets repressed to the furthest degree due to mistrust in the objective aspect. This trust in the subjective and repressing the objective means introverted attitude of a function and it should be obvious to people that you cant really trust and enforce an subjective orientation, while also mistrusting and repressing its opposite as they are mutually exclusive. So while Ti dom cant have Te, he can still have Fe as Fe doesent contradict with Ti. You need to see it as one judging function(T or F) being favored by the subjective world and the other is pushed towards its opposite, the objective world. Same goes with perceiving functions. For example if someone prefers to focus on the things that sensations bring in him instead of just purely focusing on the sensation itself, he can still focus on the possibilities in the objective world(have Ne). You see there is just one truth to people and only schizophrenics can hold two contrary truths. For an INTP the "truth" comes from the subjective logic, possibilities that lie in the objective world, what the sensations release in him and values in the objective world. While logic of the objective world is met with mistrust, ideas without any relation to objective world seem just crazy, sensation itself doesent represent the real truths but are just representations of deeper truths and values without any relation to the external world makes no sense.

    When jungians talk of the shadow(not those people who use the term shadow function, but those that invented typology and the term shadow), they are talking about things in yourself that you are not conscious of and are opposite to who you think you are. For example a humble person has a greedy shadow, king has a weak shadow etc etc
    Thank you, INTP. This clarifies a lot for me. I think that I definitely misunderstood the role of the shadow. I was seeing it as a more fluid system. While it makes that a person's functions could never be inverted or used with their opposite simultaneously, it doesn't make sense that someone wouldn't be able to engage what they have no wish to be. Wouldn't that solidify rather than threaten identity?

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