Fi is awkward too!

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What!? Omg this response cracks me up!

Maybe a little harsh, but I think people don't expect me to be harsh, and don't realize I have that within me.

I do hate that kind of statement, though. If you're going to tell me I'm not relationship material, you might as well just do so rather than saying something nice-sounding that isn't actually true. These kinds of miscommunications are how wars get started. Seriously, it just makes me feel like I'm being talked down to.

I don't feel any better than I would if they said "I don't see it working, sorry."' I feel worse, actually, because I'm a lot more angry. Am I supposed to believe that? We either go on another date or we don't. I don't need my ego boosted. Don't be an ass (and only one person has ever entered that territory) and I'll be fine. You don't need to sugarcoat it, because I can tell that's not real sugar.

Every time a woman says "I'm not interested" without including the F word, I thank them. I find the F-word in these situations to be dishonest and disrespectful.

 

[Lady_X]

Maybe a little harsh, but I think people don't expect me to be harsh, and don't realize I have that within me.

I do hate that kind of statement, though. If you're going to tell me I'm not relationship material, you might as well just do so rather than saying something nice-sounding that isn't actually true. These kinds of miscommunications are how wars get started. Seriously, it just makes me feel like I'm being talked down to.

I don't feel any better than I would if they said "I don't see it working, sorry."' I feel worse, actually, because I'm a lot more angry. Am I supposed to believe that? We either go on another date or we don't. I don't need my ego boosted. Don't be an ass (and only one person has ever entered that territory) and I'll be fine. You don't need to sugarcoat it, because I can tell that's not real sugar.

Every time a woman says "I'm not interested" without including the F word, I thank them. I find the F-word in these situations to be dishonest and disrespectful.

that's a whole lotta assumptions there tho. some people actually would mean that and by the way you wrote it sorta seemed like you did in a way...not necessarily like you wanted to be pals but you said she was nice and not doing anything wrong really?? right?

so...when it's just a chemistry thing why is it bs to say hey...i'm not really feeling a ralationshipy vibe here...not that one would say it like that but you know what i mean.

i think the point was that it's nicer to be upfront, honest and respectful than just oozing disinterest with a smile on your face.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

that's a whole lotta assumptions there tho. some people actually would mean that and by the way you wrote it sorta seemed like you did in a way...not necessarily like you wanted to be pals but you said she was nice and not doing anything wrong really?? right?

It's the pals and friends thing that bothers me.

Most guys hate hearing that. There are probably some super-progressive guys that at least say they don't mind (and maybe they don't... how would I know?), but the vast majority of us.... you didn't make us feel any better by doing that. I could start a poll on this, but I already know what the results would be.

Which ties into my OP about how Fi can be awkward.


I said something like.. "I don't see it working... I just don't think we're compatible. It wasn't any specific thing you said, it's just that I don't think it's going to work out. You seem like a good person, so I don't like having to say that. " That's not a white lie, it's the truth.

 

[gromit]

^how is it different from what Lady X said (in meaning)?


edit wow apparently it was PEACEBABY who said the initial suggestion. Sorry to you both for the mix-up.

 

[Lady_X]

Yeah really? Haha you did do the same thing. It's an awkward conversation no doubt but so much better than going through the whole thing worrying about upsetting the other person.

 

[Lady_X]

I pretty much have zero experience with this tho. I'm still dating the first guy I ever went on a date with that I didn't already know super well beforehand.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Lady X is already on my train of thought here, and makes great points.

Some extra thoughts that pop to mind for me:

I don't believe that... Why would I say that? Who does that make feel better? It doesn't make me feel better, and it probably doesn't make her feel better. uggh. The thought of those words coming out of my mouth disgusts me. Terrible advice. This thread is kind of disgusting me right now. What kind of a moron does that stuff even work on?

(I'm open with my feelings here. Are either of us really any better off because I expressed them? Incidentally, this entire issue was why I didn't think this person was relationship material. )

I've got no problem with you expressing your thoughts. And yes, I would say we are better off. If we don't discuss your reaction to my post, how can I best provide counsel and resolve a potential impasse between us? Yes, we are doing fine. It's called communicating.

Plus, I grew up with an INTP brother - your judgments here don't startle me, you can be as Ti cranky as you like. If you imagine you're the only person in the world with these unfriendly, uncharitable thoughts against others though, think again.

My advice is excellent advice IF you tailor it to your voice. I should have been explicit to say so. There was nothing in my suggestion that said, "Lie to her when expressing your truth." My sentence was mostly a paraphrase of the gist behind your very own words. Just put it back into your voice, with a dash at least of grace and gentlemanliness. I'm not saying be disingenuous in any way if that's not your desire.

It's the pals and friends thing that bothers me.

ok, so there's the hot button. As I said above, you use your own words ... I'm not saying you LIE to her if you don't want to be friends. Of course, you should ironically realize that saying you would like to be friends is no more a lie than you sitting there going through the motions on your date and expecting her to pretend she doesn't notice.

You're a fascinating contradiction ... you want authenticity yet you duck and hide from the implications of authenticity, both in yourself and others. Authenticity does not come in only one form. Does recognizing it in others make you feel like you're not doing a very good job at it yourself?

Most guys hate hearing that. There are probably some super-progressive guys that at least say they don't mind (and maybe they don't... how would I know?), but the vast majority of us.... you didn't make us feel any better by doing that. I could start a poll on this, but I already know what the results would be.

I agree, you're right about that.

Which ties into my OP about how Fi can be awkward.

Sure, Fi can be awkward but no more awkward than any other human being attempting to communicate with another human being who doesn't share the same wiring trying to find common ground. Fi is awkward to you because you experience uncomfortable emotions when faced with it. YOU own those emotions. I don't. She doesn't. And that's ok. Ya, you find it icky, but it's normal. Just because you're an INTP doesn't mean you don't have to face the reality of what to do with your emotions, how to best process them and interpret them in your life.

I said something like.. "I don't see it working... I just don't think we're compatible. It wasn't any specific thing you said, it's just that I don't think it's going to work out. You seem like a good person, so I don't like having to say that. " That's not a white lie, it's the truth.

So there you go. When did you say this, after she asked you "What's wrong?" Or was this your texting?

 

[21%]

Not speaking for all girls, but I think PB's approach is excellent:

You just say it like that. "You are intelligent and lovely and I appreciate the concern you have right now for me, but I think our date is leaning me towards us being friends rather than a couple. I'd like to enjoy the rest of our date as friends, but I understand if you'd like to cut it short."

Then you be a gentleman, drive her home or whatever, and thank her for her time to get to know you a little better.

You could even apologize for not helping the evening go smoother ...

In response to the OP, this is going to sound very weird, so feel free to ignore it if you think I don't know what I'm talking about:

It's not about being fake. It's about being on mutual grounds and respecting the other person as a fellow soul and not get stuck in all the pettiness. I mean no offense. I'm often stuck in the whole pettiness thing myself and if you don't know what I mean it's the endless train of thoughts and feelings that usually go like this "He said that so I'm so hurt and now this means this and now I should say this, but then what if he says that -- OMG it must mean that he secretly thinks that! Oh noes!". It's also being stuck on how much someone upsets you, or how much things don't go as planned -- you get what I mean with pettiness? When I can look at the big picture, I realize that it all boils down to my own insecurity somewhere, and when I see that it's liberating.

 

[the state i am in]

i find that discomfort, at least what i think what you mean, comes from not knowing how i feel and not clearly respecting the role feeling plays within myself. if i do, it is easier to be authentic in the relationship, because i'm aware of what's happening within myself. it makes it easier to relate, rather than feeling like i either have to control the other person or control myself (especially controlling the information that is present).

as a 5, i know how invasive it feels to have someone see into you when you don't know what is there, because you're not at that moment super connected to what you yourself feel. it's kind of threatening, because the kind of ephemeral quality of feeling is made even more ephemeral when your mind is as wide open (and somewhat fixated on unpleasant things, on don't want) as an e5. that can be really cutting, or at least not in a very compassionate place a lot of the time. if it is, it's a lot easier to own disappointment and own one's own positive desires, because it has more vitality and energy to stand up to life and keep moving forward. this makes it easier to accept others and allow them to do the same, rather than leading you to get caught in a kind of worried, Fe projection game because that side of things is ungrounded to actual feeling and the realities of how feeling operates within our interiors (and Fe DOES have an interior quality, even if it focuses on a different kind of emotional information).

 

[the state i am in]

I don't think it's really that type specific. I have had other Fe doms pressure me to open up to them because they craved the connection in some way (and not always in the name of social pragmatism). I was talking to an ENFJ friend of mine and the conversation went like this.

Him: (talking about universal values and what people truly love and want out of life for like 40 minutes)
Me: (zoning out for 2 minutes after that)
Him: What are you thinking about?
Me: I don't know.
Him: You do know... You just don't want to tell me.
Him: (launches into a 20 minute discussion about the importance of expressing yourself).
Him: Do you know the value if your own thoughts?... What do you love?

maybe not quite this bad, but, embarrassing as it is, i do this. it motivates me to actually talk at work and get a feel for others and where they are at. that it is in tension with another motivation, to test my ideas, is clear, but something i try to balance when i have the opportunity to have more grounded relationships with other people. i'm still working on my not-overstepping rules, or my consider so a little bit when your sx impatience to make something valuable for yourself sparks check point.

the internet does feel like more of a writing game, to me. but that's probably because the experience of making someone happy in real life vs the internet is like the difference between having sex and trying to watch sex on a scrambled tv channel as a 14 year old. i think, wait, was that, no, yeah, was that a breast, or, no, is that... aww, fuck it. time for the tried and true imagination to kick in.

 

[Glycerine]

maybe not quite this bad, but, embarrassing as it is, i do this. it motivates me to actually talk at work and get a feel for others and where they are at. that it is in tension with another motivation, to test my ideas, is clear, but something i try to balance when i have the opportunity to have more grounded relationships with other people. i'm still working on my not-overstepping rules, or my consider so a little bit when your sx impatience to make something valuable for yourself sparks check point.

Funnily enough, that snippet of the conversation is actually rather baseline for our friendship... we have had much more intense conversations. I engage it because that is what he craves and has become a good friend of mine but for most other people, I would give them a mental "fuck off". Even with the friend, it feels like being put into a pressure cooker though.

 

[the state i am in]

Funnily enough, that snippet of the conversation is actually rather baseline for our friendship... we have had much more intense conversations. I engage it because that is what he craves and has become a good friend of mine but for most other people, I would give them a mental "fuck off". Even with the friend, it feels like being put into a pressure cooker though.

i do think the right to remain silent is inviolable. it is nice of you to recognize that he craves it and try to work with it even if he doesn't always recognize that the reason, the motivation for why he's doing it, is because of himself rather than because of you.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

as a 5, i know how invasive it feels to have someone see into you when you don't know what is there, because you're not at that moment super connected to what you yourself feel.

Bingo. It's invasive. I don't feel as though it was better for me to talk about what was on my mind.

I mean, I couldn't even do it. I stumbled over the words and just sort of freaked out. I could only tell them what was going on through texts after he fact. I saw them looking upset and hurt, and I just found myself frozen up and broken down.

I don't believe it when people say they don't mind what I say. I don't feel liberated or calmed by someone demanding, in a way, that I share. I feel like I'm placed on a stage. I know I can't express the raw emotions, because that's too thoughtless. And often times, people will say they don't care if my response is negative, but I can sense resentment bubbling under the surface.

If the feelings I express will be unacceptable to someone, I'd rather say nothing, until such time as they become more of an intellectual phenomenon, the acceptance or rejection thereof becoming less relevant.

I don't owe people who aren't part of my inner circle an expression of my feelings when all I'm doing is having them. If I'm acting on them, then yes, it is relevant. If I'm frowning about something, no, I don't need to explain that to you. If I'm "not having a good day" and generally staying out of someone's way, I don't need to divulge to someone who won't actually give a damn.

All I feel from someone prying into facial expressions or body language like that is that I need to learn some acting skills so that people can leave me to my own devices and not make me more upset by interfering.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Also, I should point out at this point that she said something like, "If you don't want to be here, you can just leave, it's fine."

I got up, and then she called out "I'm worried about you."

Immediately I sat back down, I couldn't help it.

I don't know what she was doing, but this isn't a conversation I have with someone I just met, and it's not as big of a deal as it seems, anyway.

The situation is like this.. .I want to leave, but I can't, because it would be rude, and (before she started asking about my feelings) because maybe things will turn around. She says.... you can leave if you want to, but then says "wait, I'm worried about you.' Now, I don't only feel naked and uncomfortable, I feel guilty. Because she's concerned about me, and I'm trying to not get involved here. I can't have an "I'm worried about you" conversation without getting emotionally attached. How the hell does that help me walk away from the situation like I know that I need to? I decided I didn't want to date you, remember? That means I don't want to share things with you.

Folks, that's as awkward as anything I've done.