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  1. #1
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Default What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?

    I was reading an old thread and came across this post by @fidelia and thought it might make for interesting/enlightening discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey there EW, thanks for the advice. I'll be writing to you for sure. This is one of the things I find most tricky about Fe and Fi. I've grown to understand why Fi communicates some of the things it does and that it is not for the same reasons as a Fe user does. I also am beginning to understand the mindset a little bit better through some of our long Fe-Fi threads. However, it still takes me by surprise what NFPs would consider as cruel or unkind behaviour or comments vs what I would perceive as offensive. I could say something that I consider totally innocuous and it would be felt as rather harsh and unkind. Then I hear a Fi user suggesting saying something that to my ears sounds totally brutal, and the fellow Fi user is thankful and finds it useful! I'd find it interesting at some point to start a thread about that, because while I am beginning to recognize some of which is which, I still would have a hard time distinguishing between ahead of time and certainly having the judgement to say things appropriately to Fi ears. This would be a really helpful skill to have, especially for teaching.

    You made a great point about the walls of text and ENFPs. What is it that have made some of the ENFPs choose to persist through that sort of thing to continue discussion, while others immediately are turned off and abandon the discussion because of it?

    I know I personally feel as though I offend fe users and would like to work on that. I'll add more in a bit...currently dealing with fried brain syndrome having read that old thread for forever.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #2
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In the middle of re-reading it!

    In my experience, I think I irritate Fi users in the following ways (keep in mind that both Fe and Fi are differently flavoured depending on what other functions are mixed in and what position those functions have).

    - not very playful
    - unwilling to listen to all people's ideas equally - the speaker and my history with them, and their areas of expertise matter to me as much as the idea
    - keep wanting to know WHY they are telling me something so I can figure out how to react appropriately. What is the objective? I discovered in one thread recently that they tend to let things evolve, see what parts they have and then make whatever machine they can. I start with the machine I want to create in mind, and then sort the conversation parts according to what is useful in making that machine and what isn't.
    - only want to engage in a conversation if it's going to have some kind of productive outcome
    - need for privacy if you are going to call someone out on something, rather than just getting everything out in the open.
    - tendency to need to DO something to feel that I am helping, rather than just letting the person tell me what they need.
    - expecting others to read subtext in what I say
    - not being willing to resolve conflict or talk about things in the moment because I want time for my emotions to cool so I can regain a more objective perspective.
    - making what sounds like definite judgements on a situation or on people (these don't sound as definite to me as they do to a Fi hearer - they are more like a Te or Ne hypothesis that is put out there until something that fits better is found).
    - asking questions that may sound intrusive or invasive (to me they are expressions of interest or care).
    - this is maybe Te/Ti but I have a tendency towards walls of text and too many qualifiers and rabbit trails.
    - Don't know if this is just me, but since I feel that way and I'm a Fe user I'll just say it. I hate emotional surprises. Even if something is going to be negative, I'll be fine with it, as long as I know what to expect. Fi seems a little more spontaneous and it scares me a bit because I don't do well dealing with my own emotions on the fly. There's too much information to wade through. I'd rather prepare myself ahead of time. I think it seems a bit stiff and stick in the muddish to Fi though.

    Some things I have had to hammer through are:

    - realizing that Fi users are trying to relate to the situation when they talk about their own experiences. They aren't making the situation all about them.
    - understanding that I need to volunteer more information instead of feeling rejected if a Fi user doesn't seek out information. They are trying to respect my privacy.
    - I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better.
    - I also am not sure how to make my needs for verbal appreciation known. When I show appreciation verbally or in writing for most Fi users, it makes them uncomfortable. I think they'd prefer I make them something homemade or something more indirect that shows my thanks instead.
    - I think this is more Ne/Ni stuff, but sometimes I get impatient with being offered "uncooked" ideas - stuff that has not been thought through to conclusion, because I mistake it for being offered a "cooked" but odd-tasting conclusion. I'm getting better at recognizing this sooner, but I still sometimes get kind of judgey and frustrated before I remember.
    - moodiness and inconsistency really makes me uncomfortable. It feels emotionally threatening and undermines my trust. It also feels very personally directed even when it is not. Fi users seem to have a higher tolerance for this.
    - not attempting to do something you don't really want to (but don't have any value-based conviction against) for the sake of someone you care about seems like a personal slap in the face to me. I think maybe Fi users see it more separately from the person in question.
    - not taking what seem to me very clearly delineated danger warnings to heart and then feeling upset when I get blunt. I still am not sure what goes wrong there. From one of the threads I think I concluded that the signals are seen but the Fi user is protesting against their unfairness. But I'm not sure if that's accurate, and if it was accurate in that situation, how generalized to Fi that is or isn't.
    - Ne/Fi people sometimes tend to say things in the heat of the moment that they mean only then and assume others know that. They also sometimes are more general than my Ti would like (is that more of a Te/Ti deal?).
    - Fi seems more selective about who it cares about but really goes all out when it does. In some ways, I feel like I want someone to show basic regard for me, even if we are just casual friends, but I need someone who can remain objective when I bring up a situation that's bothering me. I feel like I'm in the middle of a river with a swiftly moving current and the Fi user just jumps in with me instead of throwing me a rope from the safety of the bank and pulling me onto dry land. I need to figure out how to neither feel rebuffed by the emotional distance initially, nor overwhelmed by the emotional intensity afterwards.

    This is rather messy and a little scattered, but maybe is a jumping off point. I'm missing a few things on both lists but can't quite remember what they are. Will edit as I remember.

  3. #3
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i've come to some of the same realizations but also have a hard time remembering them when talking with a fe user.

    i noticed your structure change...it's appreciated. haha i really do find it easier to read and i know you did that for us so thank you.

    so let me ask this...would it be helpful if we were to take a mirroring approach in conversation? like repeating back to you what we're hearing and clarify it's meaning and ask you questions to further work through the issue?

    rather than relating in an empathetic way?

    example: you tell me you have an issue with your boyfriend or friend at work and rather than say omg i knew this girl who always did that and...blah blah blah

    instead i say...so do you feel like she's undermining you? or not respecting you? or do you feel like maybe she's just threatened by you and is doing such and such to make herself feel like blah blah...

    i mean...would that be helpful? is that the way it's done? or would the jumping to conclusions ahead of you be annoying? i mean i think i can get it if i get it in my head that it's more like playing therapist and helping you work through your problem...rather than my natural inclination to sort of fi relate/bond/empathize with you.

    also...does that approach feel like bonding to you? or is simply just felt like care? does that mean the same thing to you?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #4
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    honestly, it's way harder to offend me with what you say than it is by what you do. but as far as communication...hmm, i'm offended by manipulation and by bullying (that includes bystander bullying).
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    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - not being willing to resolve conflict or talk about things in the moment because I want time for my emotions to cool so I can regain a more objective perspective.
    Yes!

    This one drives me nuts the most, I think. Of course, when I play by their rules, they get mad at me for acting like a prick. Yet, the simple act of asking for time to cool down is seen as "selfish" because "'Oh, so now I'm supposed to SIT WITH THIS." Yes. You'd be sitting with it anyway, because trying to esolve it immediately would only create more conflict, 9/10.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #6
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yes!

    This one drives me nuts the most, I think. Of course, when I play by their rules, they get mad at me for acting like a prick. Yet, the simple act of asking for time to cool down is seen as "selfish" because "'Oh, so now I'm supposed to SIT WITH THIS." Yes. You'd be sitting with it anyway, because trying to esolve it immediately would only create more conflict, 9/10.
    okay...i'm confused by this. fi people often need time to process stuff too. i know if i'm extremely hurt or irritated the best thing for both of us is for me to take some space. i don't always want to but it's often turned out worse when i don't.

    can you elaborate? are you saying you have not experienced a fi user needing processing time?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #7
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i've come to some of the same realizations but also have a hard time remembering them when talking with a fe user.

    i noticed your structure change...it's appreciated. haha i really do find it easier to read and i know you did that for us so thank you.

    so let me ask this...would it be helpful if we were to take a mirroring approach in conversation? like repeating back to you what we're hearing and clarify it's meaning and ask you questions to further work through the issue?

    rather than relating in an empathetic way?

    example: you tell me you have an issue with your boyfriend or friend at work and rather than say omg i knew this girl who always did that and...blah blah blah

    instead i say...so do you feel like she's undermining you? or not respecting you? or do you feel like maybe she's just threatened by you and is doing such and such to make herself feel like blah blah...

    i mean...would that be helpful? is that the way it's done? or would the jumping to conclusions ahead of you be annoying? i mean i think i can get it if i get it in my head that it's more like playing therapist and helping you work through your problem...rather than my natural inclination to sort of fi relate/bond/empathize with you.

    also...does that approach feel like bonding to you? or is simply just felt like care? does that mean the same thing to you?
    That's roughly what I try to do nowadays. I've had a few Fe types tell me I was selfish due to my 'wanting to relate with a story' way. So now, I'll try and take a more objective approach to one of my personal stories that relates to the original speaker, and try to bring my story back around to them and their point.


    My sister is an Fe-dom who often likes to think that my ideas and opinions are purposefully rebellious. It always bothered me that she saw me as insincere. I don't know if this is a common problem between Fe and Fi, but it's my sisters main problem with me.

    I'll post as I think of more communication differences.
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  8. #8
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, Lady X, what you're describing is what would feel to me like being heard. Mirroring back in other words is great as long as it is not in therapist speak (It sounds to me like you are saying blah blah blah, etc). It's also fine to relate your own experiences, as long as you bring it back around to the other person and their problem.

    The only change I'd make to that is that it is less for the purpose of helping the person decide what to do or for guiding them, and more so that you either
    1) understand the situation/them and therefore become closer
    2) help them clear away the emotional trees that have blown down over the road so they can solve the problem at hand themselves
    3) allow them to talk so they can clarify for themselves what pieces of information are most important and get a more clearly articulated view of the situation for themselves
    4) serve as a quick check to see whether their reaction is reasonable or not.

    If your reaction and theirs are very different, they will go back and consider why that is and if their assessment is accurate or not. It's like taking a quick check in the mirror before you go out to make sure that you look the way you think you look in your mind's eye.

    Is that of any help?

    As far as the solving things in the moment part - I've found, especially with some ENFPs (which I like, by the way), that sometimes when they are most upset, they would prefer a little verbal plate throwing and raging (some of which is meant, and some of which is not really meant) and will metaphorically follow you into the next room while you are trying to cool off and get some mental distance from the situation so that you will not hurl verbal plates and have time to consider all points of view. After they are done throwing plates, then they can get on with loving you again, regardless of everything that just happened.

    For me, I take longer to heat up and longer to cool down. If I am agitated, I'd rather be agitated privately and remove myself enough that I can feel more objective again. I find I get increasingly blunt and direct the closer someone starts following me when I am feeling like that.

    This may be based on a very small sample selection, but overall, I think that Fi is more in the moment and more intense. It can flare up quite suddenly if a value has been stepped on. Fi love also seems to me more concentrated and intense. Fe seems more diffuse and the functions that interact with it seem to require more time to moderate it for me. I think it is a little different with other varieties of Fe users though. For example, my ENFJ mother usually speaks in the moment and then regrets saying too much later. So maybe this is not a Fe/Fi thing at all. What do you think, Lady X?

  9. #9
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Speaking of which, if you bring something up, would you prefer that we relate with a story, without bringing it back around to your original problem? Would you want help solving the problem, or just a listening ear? Do questions like the ones you mention sound intrusive? I've never really heard my Fi friends give negative feedback, but then maybe they wouldn't and I know my way is different than theirs, so maybe I need to do some adjusting.

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    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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