What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?

[Lady_X]

I have a question to both fps and fjs.

When witnessing a statement/comment by someone you know/friend/acquaintance that you believe is offensive:

How do you react?
Do you judge that person by the comment that person made? Or
By the history of experiences you've had with that person?
Would you give that person time to explain themselves? Or
Do you get further offended when that person tries to defend themselves?
Is a sincere apology accepted? Or
Does it allow you to further feel as though the horse you ride get taller?
Do you feel good about yourselves when you judge another?
And do you consider yourself tolerant? (Tolerance plays a major role in kindness/harmony/acceptance I believe.)

I react just like I do here pretty much. I typically interpret things based on what I know of the person and how I think it was meant. I prefer blunt. I prefer to be friendly and just open... But that would depend on how offended I was. Usually I get more offended or bothered if what you said makes me rethink everything I thought I knew about you... Like this doesn't match with that and wow does that bother me.

I truly do prefer not to have to be delicate. I value my relationships so much more with people that can handle a bit of harshness without taking it too personally.

I don't like hostile tho... I can handle matter of fact blunt comments but I don't like when people get super pissy about it because then I'm reacting to the out of proportion emotion not the words.

So you can say you were such a bitch just then!!

And if you say it like dude I'm just telling you
Or shocked and just omg wtf
Or you can be all whiney and/ or hostile and that will make me go grrrr right back.

Wait... I feel like I'm not answering the actual question right now. Sec.

Hmm... No I don't feel better about myself. That has nothing to do with it.

I just treat people like I want to be treated most the time. Yes I'd let someone explain... I'd ask them to.

I don't really feel like I'm super easy to offend.

But maybe I am I don't know. It's too early for your questions.

 

[skylights]

That's something interesting - I guess it had never occurred to me that Fi users didn't realize that redirection is assumed and welcomed. Would verbalizing that out loud be helpful (in addition to trying to direct less?)

Yeah, definitely! And just trying to notch it back a little both in terms of intensity and speed to let us have time/space to think. The ideas themselves are often helpful but it's a hard process for us to engage with, it seems, since it works in a different "direction" than we're used to.

My ESFJ mom tends to do it to the point where I just am like "Mom that sounds great, I'll definitely try that!" and then gently change the subject because she gets so into her idea of how things should go that it's really hard for me to figure out how to voice how and why that's not what I want to do without making it sound like I don't appreciate her ideas. Which, [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], if you could recommend any good suggestions for how to redirect without being unfriendly, that would be fantastic! Though of course sometimes Mom comes up with the PERFECT solution, and she's very helpful overall. It's also fallout of her being a 2 and getting a lot of satisfaction out of fixing others' problems, not just a Fe thing, I think.

I also eventually spoke to my ISFJ about not speaking in directives at me, because it felt like I was being ordered around, and he explained that it was his way of giving me suggestions. He still does it, though less forcefully now, and since I understand what he's doing it's so much easier for me to take them as ideas and recommendations instead of him pushing me to do things.

In reflection, the whole kind of thing is really silly because I like being in line with their directives - it gives me satisfaction to have my mom or boyfriend recommend something to me and me follow through with it and have it improve my life. For one, of course, it makes it less stressful for me since I didn't have to come up with that idea, and two, it makes me feel cared for and like they understand me. I assume that's how Fe is supposed to work, but it just takes a little mutual understanding, I think, to be able for it to translate readily across Fe-Fi lines

I'm not sure about what to do with that, as I know Fi users don't like Fe "nudges" and they also don't want to be told a prescribed thing to do, as it would be inauthentic, yet I've heard many express that it seems like there is a handbook somewhere that they failed to receive and they would like to be told what is expected.

I think the difference might be in part that FPs tend to lay out information as their way of helping. I totally empathize with wanting a handbook. I do too. But not really a handbook of directions, but one of information. If I know enough information, then I can decide what to do based on my Fi framework. I think the problem with Fe directives coming at the Fi framework is that JiPe has to sort out the Pe information and then run it through the Ji filter. We're can't just take the JePi and see the Pi and reflect back Je like another Fe dom/aux could because it's in a different "language" than what we're used to. If we're just expected to act according to JePi, not only do we feel forced, since we haven't had the opportunity to make our own Ji judgment, but we also don't understand because we didn't get any Pe info, either.

My ESFJ mom is actually pretty good at translating for me. For example, we were recently invited to a charity event. She said, "I was thinking you could wear your green dress", which instantly puts the image in my head of my floor-length, high-neck, sleeveless green gown. That tells me a wealth of P information: fancy but not ultra-fancy, a little modest but not restrictively so, night clothes. Very useful, because I could take that raw "green dress" information right into Pe and Ji. I am still prone to thinking that means she wants me to wear that dress specifically - Si fail ahoy - but in that case I ended up wearing an ivory lace top and dark blue linen skirt and mom told me she loved my outfit. And I did have to fall back on my own Pi, which is trickier for me to use.

Alternatively, it would have been easier and more natural to me to just be given the event invitation. Then I would see that it's on heavy paper, color printed, upscale restaurant, nighttime event, silent auction, and so on, and dress according to all those Pe cues.

So my suggestion would be just to provide an FP with background information that would help them understand the nature of a situation. An NFP, at least.

 

[Fidelia]

I completely understand. This is much like how I feel when people want to prescribe how I should think about things or rush me through a thinking process. I think I encountered that in one thread where a lot of people perceived the INFJs to be on wobbly, unhappy ground, when they were only seeking out more information to make sense of things, not actually feeling confrontation at all. I was surprised to find myself getting a bit prickly even at people I liked and respected, because it felt that they were being too prescriptive about how I should arrive at the conclusions I needed. I would prefer to be given the information they've gleaned out of thinking about something a certain way so that I can customize it, instead of being asked to use a process that isn't as effective for me.

So regarding the handbook thing - what is the kind of information that would be most helpful to you? I certainly don't want to tell people what to do. At the same time, sometimes it seems to me that there are general underlying principles that might be useful for Fi users to sometimes consider that would allow them to be heard better or avoid offending unknowingly. If the principle were to be explained, would that feel intrusive or helpful? Is that just trying to impose Fe on someone else, or is it offering a perspective that might be usable to them?

Regarding redirection - I think that you first look for areas of commonality that you can agree with. Then ask some questions or point out the parts that don't make sense to you. You can also ask what the underlying principle the person sees in that course of behaviour is. Depending on the Fe user, it may all go a bit differently. For example, with my ENFJ mother, she gets impatient when I want to just express frustration about something and she starts telling me what I should do before she understands that I'm just trying to clear away emotional debris. Then when I explain why I don't want to take that course of action, she says, "Well DON'T do it then". I'm learning to try to explain first the reason why I am communicating certain information (sometimes I want to vent, sometimes I just need a check over of my plan, sometimes I need to brainstorm a little, sometimes I want to see if my reaction is off or in line with how she'd see it, sometimes I truly am seeking guidance). When I don't do that, I often end up very frustrated and she is another Fe user (and one who thinks pretty similarly to me, no less!). I've found that all Fe user types are flavoured just a little bit differently, even though there are some overarching principles in common. Is that of any help?

 

[skylights]

I completely understand. This is much like how I feel when people want to prescribe how I should think about things or rush me through a thinking process. I think I encountered that in one thread where a lot of people perceived the INFJs to be on wobbly, unhappy ground, when they were only seeking out more information to make sense of things, not actually feeling confrontation at all. I was surprised to find myself getting a bit prickly even at people I liked and respected, because it felt that they were being too prescriptive about how I should arrive at the conclusions I needed. I would prefer to be given the information they've gleaned out of thinking about something a certain way so that I can customize it, instead of being asked to use a process that isn't as effective for me.

Yeah exactly. I think that can be a P-dom commonality, too. TBH I think in general overall everyone's desires in interaction are mostly similar - respect, time to process, space to act, assumption that they are not being malicious, communication in a language they understand - it's just that we all have those little oddities that are different, like what we tend to look at first or how we'd rather decide, etc.

So regarding the handbook thing - what is the kind of information that would be most helpful to you? I certainly don't want to tell people what to do. At the same time, sometimes it seems to me that there are general underlying principles that might be useful for Fi users to sometimes consider that would allow them to be heard better or avoid offending unknowingly. If the principle were to be explained, would that feel intrusive or helpful? Is that just trying to impose Fe on someone else, or is it offering a perspective that might be usable to them?

Personally, as Ne dom, I love hearing principles explained. That is super helpful to me. I'd love to expand more but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good example situation at the moment. I'll try to think of one but in the meantime please let me know if you have one or two in mind, because I'd be more than happy to flesh them out!

Regarding redirection - I think that you first look for areas of commonality that you can agree with. Then ask some questions or point out the parts that don't make sense to you. You can also ask what the underlying principle the person sees in that course of behaviour is. Depending on the Fe user, it may all go a bit differently. For example, with my ENFJ mother, she gets impatient when I want to just express frustration about something and she starts telling me what I should do before she understands that I'm just trying to clear away emotional debris. Then when I explain why I don't want to take that course of action, she says, "Well DON'T do it then". I'm learning to try to explain first the reason why I am communicating certain information (sometimes I want to vent, sometimes I just need a check over of my plan, sometimes I need to brainstorm a little, sometimes I want to see if my reaction is off or in line with how she'd see it, sometimes I truly am seeking guidance). When I don't do that, I often end up very frustrated and she is another Fe user (and one who thinks pretty similarly to me, no less!). I've found that all Fe user types are flavoured just a little bit differently, even though there are some overarching principles in common. Is that of any help?

Yes, that is very helpful! Thank you!!

I think I tend to want to start with why I don't feel like it's quite right so I'll try voicing the commonalities first. Prefacing with my goal would probably help a lot, too. I've noticed I don't tend to do that and then I get frustrated when the other person is directing the parts I've already figured out. I've noticed that of the ISFJ, ESFJ, and ENFJ I talk to on a hyper-frequent basis, all of us like venting emotions with others and seek solutions less than just safe space to let that emotion out.

 

[Fidelia]

The reason for starting with commonality first is that it is a way of building common ground with the other person and establishing that you are not opposing them as a person. Then if you can point out where your thinking starts to diverge and tell how it looks from your perspective, it allows the other person to be less prescriptive. They may end up asking you some why questions, but if you realize that they are not challenging the validity, but actually complimenting you by trying to understand your point of view, then it makes it easier for them to see your perspective and give you what you need.

Also keep in mind that Fe is purpose and action oriented. So, if you are finding that someone is being too prescriptive or doing too much, if you can redirect them by telling them what would be more helpful to you and why, they often will be happy to oblige. This may seem selfish, as you are the one in distress and yet you have to be thinking of how to make them feel more useful. On the other hand, (at least in my case), I've found that being misunderstood or overly prescribed can be more distressing to me, so sometimes it is worth the bit of effort it takes to redirect them to something that would be more useful.

 

[skylights]

The reason for starting with commonality first is that it is a way of building common ground with the other person and establishing that you are not opposing them as a person. Then if you can point out where your thinking starts to diverge and tell how it looks from your perspective, it allows the other person to be less prescriptive. They may end up asking you some why questions, but if you realize that they are not challenging the validity, but actually complimenting you by trying to understand your point of view, then it makes it easier for them to see your perspective and give you what you need.

It makes a lot of sense... in my sorority we used to do something called "pro-con-pro" which was where you would give feedback in the format of something positive, a constructive criticism, and then something positive again. Then even when you were getting criticized it would be couched in two nice things and would feel far less upsetting. When people did it well it felt like they were on your side and trying to help you see something you'd missed, rather than down-rating you.

 

[Fidelia]

I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view.

 

[Fidelia]

I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view and building trust?

I'm not saying that all Fi users do this. Would it be fair to say though that with Fi, the focus is more on the immediate and on the individual, rather than on the long term and how it affects everyone.

 

[skylights]

I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view and building trust?

I'm not saying that all Fi users do this. Would it be fair to say though that with Fi, the focus is more on the immediate and on the individual, rather than on the long term and how it affects everyone.

Yeah, for sure. I think also more the "ideal" than the individual, honestly. Like to some extent I don't even think in terms of people, but in terms of what should happen in a perfect world, and then only process individual reactions later.

It makes me think, yesterday I was doing a particularly hard job at work, and I haven't had much experience at it, so I was really having to push myself. I'm usually fast enough at my job to be able to do it as well as help other people out, so naturally people were coming to me with questions, like they often do. While I was happy to help them, I also really wanted to leave, so I tried to just give them enough info to get them started, and then sent them on their way. Eventually I got so fed up with this one girl coming to me about small issues she knew how to fix herself, and just whining incessantly (she's a good bit younger and I've sort of been mentoring her), and then as the kicker, she teasingly me, well when are you going home, geez - and I said loudly, "Well I've been trying, but people keep bothering me about everything!" It wasn't really my best moment, obviously, and mostly it was meant to be a pointed comment to her. Biut I noticed a second later that the poor new kid who was closing the department must have heard me, and he'd been asking me questions too, so I went over and apologized, told him please not to feel like that comment was directed towards him, it was just an expression of frustration at the other girl. More than that honestly it was the vocalization of an overall exasperation that even though I tend to give a lot of my time to others, those same people not only didn't give me time to finish my own work without constant interruption - a common courtesy - but they also didn't even seem to notice that I was having a hard time. To me it seemed like not only were they not being grateful of the help I regularly give that is above and beyond my job duties, but they weren't even giving me the common courtesy of letting me finish my own work. It felt like "I do all this for you, and you won't even give me basic respect, much less will you reciprocate". And then on top of it all, this girl displays the sublime ignorance of clearly not even noticing that I had that much work that day, too, even though I'd told her several times. She was just so absorbed in her own stuff.

And yeah, it was total imprecise TeFi venting, nothing particularly eloquent or illuminating, for sure. I didn't really even think about other people, it was totally just about my feelings and how I was really frustrated about being treated in a totally unappreciative way. That's the downside of Fi, I think, it processes way more in "I feel this because of this" instead of "these people will feel this if I say this".

 

[Riva]

I was wondering if this is also true of Fi and Fe. If Fi looks for core, universal principles, while Fe looks at the details of interaction in real time.

Thanks for the reply.

I think in extreme cases what I have quoted could lead to a lot of issues for Fe and in extreme cases it - it being the opposite - could lead to a lot of benefits for Fi. However these I have noticed only in extreme cases.

How different these Fi/Fe threads are from those of Ti/Te Ni/Ne; or should I say Ti/Ni threads?

 

[Stansmith]

The only thing that really offends my Fi in a significant way in day-to-day interaction is deliberately making me feel worthless, or witnessing some unusual act of sadism. I simply disassociate/withdraw from most everything else. I'll react internally, but there's not much I'll do about it; for better or for worse, I don't feel personally responsible for it. I've generally never surrounded myself with exceptionally morally questionable people.

 

[Stansmith]

An acquaintance of mine introduced me to an ESTP 8w7 Sx/Sp friend of hers who was subtly racist , and although I found a few of her comments a bit off-putting (I certainly wasn't used to it), I found the context of it within her overall personality rather amusing. We certainly wouldn't make good friends, but my perception of her wasn't negative. I tend to feel this way towards most controversial or offensive figures, which I assume is a result of NeTe, as well as Six-ambivalence.

 

[Southern Kross]

OK. I finally got around to this...

i understand what you are saying. but i also take multiple opinions in consideration. what i like is to know what everyone's true feelings are, so we can arrive to a compromise. and the feeling i have and that frustrates me is that Fe users are not interested in hearing what everyone's personal feelings are, it's as if they don't consider the depth of feeling, they just brush it right off. and this is what sometimes offends me about Fe, when feelings are just not considered.

I'll give you an example.

this one time, i had arranged with two friends of mine (lesbian couple) to go to a natural reservation outside of the city. we were taking their car, so i went to meet them at their house. when i arrived, my ENFJ friend was happy to see me, and arranging everything. but i sensed that she was being a bit bitchy to her INFP girlfriend. and when i was alone with the INFP friend, i realised that she wasn't happy. so the ENFJ friend had put on a show of happiness, when really things weren't alright. and i felt partially guilty, because i'd also replied in a happy tone, without knowing that the room wasn't full of happy feelings.

now, when someone is not happy or in pain, i feel their feeling. that's where my empathy comes from. so immediately i talked in private to my INFP friend: "hey, what's up, you're not ok?" - although, at the same time, i also felt like i shouldn't dig a lot, because it might be a private issue between the couple. but it pained me to see someone so sad and bottled up with emotions that were not being addressed at all.

so, already i didn't feel well. when we got to the car, my silent INFP friend finally talked. she said she was so very sorry for the situation (she trully was so embarrassed) but she couldn't pretend everything was alright, and she wasn't feeling in the right mood, and me and the ENFJ friend should go alone, without her, because she just ruins everything and she's worthless blah blah. i said right away: "sure, but we don't need to go at all, don't worry, it's not your fault, if we're not all in the mood, there's no point in going, we can do it another time ". this is my way of solving things.

i was surprised by the reaction of my ENFJ friend, totally different. she said to her girlfriend: "oh shut up, get in the car and let's drive. it seems like i'm the only adult here, the only one who takes care of things". so both me and the INFP got in the car, and i felt like a girl who'd just received a command by a parental figure. i also felt awful for my INFP friend, and i tried the whole trip to acknowledge her feelings (by supporting her when she was talking, etc).

but when we arrived to the destination, my INFP friend was happy. she was in the nature and she was happy. and i was surprised again, because i saw how one way of solving issues that is so different to mine, can also work out. but, at the same time, it really got me this Fe way of solving issues, that is about ignoring the feelings that are not useful to you, and i wondered if my friend was ok or just hiding her feelings, still.

This is a nice balanced example of things. I see both sides of this. I've been that INFP who is so stuck in an emotional place where pretending not to feel it is unthinkable. The best I can do is shut up about it or walk away. I've also felt pretty upset at having my feelings dismissed like the ENFJ did. I mean both of them had been party to the argument (even though we don't know the particulars about what went on), and yet she was behaving as if the INFP was wholly responsible for the negative atmosphere.

I also realise that it's a little manipulative for the INFP play the martyr (specifically like she did in the car). I fully admit to having done this in the past. And I know that the ENFJ just getting things going, knowing the INFP would get over it, was probably the best way to deal with the situation as it stood, even if she was nasty and condescending in the way she went about it.

We’ve talked so much about adjusting to other people’s communication styles so much in this thread but not enough has been said about the need for opposing styles. Sometimes Fi-users need a Fe solution driven response, and sometimes Fe-users need a Fi empathising/perspective shifting response. And sometimes we might not want to be spoken to like that, but it might be what we really need.

lso, I find it very interesting that you are an Fe-user and So is your last instinct. Southern Kross is an Fi-user and So is her dominant instinct. It would be lovely to understand how these two things interact and how So can "taint" Fi and Sp/Sx "taint" So, so to speak. I mean, I'd love to understand where Fe ends and So begins.
Anyway, it's just great to talk to you all, thank you

Yes, we had a conversation about this. Fe and So do have some cross-over elements. For me So makes me a little more conscious of social expectations/etiquette but it doesn't make me good at matching them (nor does it make me like them!). I'm still looking at the social expectation/etiquette through Fi framework; I see them in terms of subjective values made universal. The Fe mode of thought, behaviour and all the other Fe qualities don't really apply to me.

And, there's the rub. Fi users don't deal in emotional currency. Thus, can feel they are not afforded the benefit of genuine emotional choice in return. Fi doms generally don't use emotions as a means to an end, even if an Fe user interprets it so; a conflict-avoidant Fi user learns not to emote at all or fake it and just tell an Fe person what they want to hear because we can sense the 'right' answer and it saves us a lot of grief. Personally, I think it sucks for both of us that this is the perspective I have to adopt sometimes. (this para edited a bit for clarity.)

Yes, this is what I was referring to earlier when I talked about how negative use of Fe can be like an emotional transaction. Fi-users really don't like people messing with emotions or trying to use them with a purpose in mind - this is just cold and calculating to us. I'm not necessarily saying that what the Fe user do is wrong, I'm just describing what it can sometimes look like. I certainly see the value in it and know how good it can feel to be on the receiving end of it.

I also said something about this in that epic INFJ vs. INFP thread. I'm going to be vulgar and quote myself here (this is more specific to the types involved but there are elements that boil down to Fi vs Fe way of thinking):

INFPs - need to mentally recreate the feelings someone is experiencing. These feelings are unconscious and relate to valid human experience, and must be addressed as such. Consequently, there is no significant judgement attached.
INFJs - need to mentally recreate the thought-process someone is motivated by. These thoughts are conscious and relate to significant intentions and goals, and must be addressed as such. Consequently judgement must be attached.

The way to irritate a INFP: use feelings with conscious intentions in mind. The INFP says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as emotions, and used them as means to distort and distract my reasoning. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."

The way to irritate a INFJ: use a thought process with unconscious intentions in mind. The INFJ says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as logical argument, and distorted and distracted my reasoning with your own personal issues. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."

The second to last paragraph is really what I'm trying to get at.

I TOTALLY get though how keeping track can be a real benefit and be useful. I've been a beneficiary of that. I just see so much abuse of the system it's hard to feel positive overall.

Here's a quick example:

My ISFJ Mom has an abundance of tomatoes in her garden. She does not wish to see them go to waste and has mentioned to me a few times that she would like to get rid of them. I know she is strongly hinting at me to take them and do something with them, so I think about that and Monday tell her, "Sure, I have time this year, I could make chili sauce with them." So, I say, "Yes, I would be happy to take them" but me taking them is now part of our Fe dance on the matter. Yesterday we confirm our plans and because I am taking her gift I am now obligated in turn to do something in return, and my Mom is not shy about pressing this quickly. She then says, "That would be great, and since you are coming up, pick me up some Mason jars on the way. And oh, I don't have much salad, could you bring that too for our lunch?" Now, here's the rub - I am happy to do that, because I like my Mom and I understand how she is wired in this way and means nothing terrible by it, but the following bugs me about being pressed:

1.) This extra errand was not something I knew about in advance, so I will have to add 30 minutes overall to get that stuff and bring it to her place.
2.) She does not mention whether she will pay me back so I will have to gently suss out whether I can ask to be reimbursed the $10 for Mason jars or consider it part of the collateral of getting the 'free' tomatoes.
3.) She does not seem to take into account the expense or inconvenience factor for me coming to get the tomatoes in the first place. I live 45 minutes away and am mostly going to help her out. (I wonder if she even gets that I'm just being nice about it.) But in saying yes, I open myself to have to be ingratiated for something that is likely easier and cheaper for me to obtain at the farmer's market 2 min down the street. I've now spent over $10 in gas and $10 in Mason jars for my free tomatoes. And the way I am wired is that I see that as a write-off, I cannot fathom asking for her to comp me on that in return.
4.) She was going into town that morning anyway before I arrived! Why do I have to be the one to do the errands? I would never ask her to do something that I could readily do myself.
5.) We have to see what each gives and takes as being 'equal' for the concept of currency to work. I don't think the tomatoes were worth what I 'paid'. Since I don't keep tabs, it doesn't really bother me to come out on the bottom of that. But, I am aware of it.

Fe definitions of our interaction become the expectation and I for one, seeing and experiencing this difficult catch-22 regularly, can come to resent the one-sidedness, and all framed in a way that makes ME, the Fi person, look selfish if I say NO and assert my own boundary. Fe preferences rule and set our interactions. Do you see how one-sided that looks to the Fi POV?

Oh, I've been in that situation many times. And I know what you mean PB; you just go along with it because it's not that important to have it exactly how you want. I can't say how much that is Fi or whether its just personal values, but this is a way I show respect to others, by pushing my preferences aside and just going along with what they need. It's not important to me to fight every battle, and toss my toys every time things don't go my way. In many ways I feel like it's my duty to get past any irritation I feel, because I feel it's more important that I control myself and my reactions, rather than try to dictate others'. All the same, when people push me to do that too much, or just expect it of me, or abuse my willingness to relent and oblige their preferences, then I start to get resentful. I'm guessing you would have been more OK with what your mum was doing if you felt she was respecting what you were doing on your end of the bargain, so to speak.

So, Fe wants to solve the distressing external situation first, and then process the emotions later (if needed) without external distraction/stress. Fi wants to solve the distressing internal situation first, and then solve the external situation (if needed) without internal distraction/stress.

Both tend to assume that others take the same approach.

?

This seems accurate.

For me the stressful part is shifting my thoughts/feelings into the right mindset, which will then enable me to easily take action afterwards. I suppose with Fe, if the situation is dealt with, the emotions will then be easily resolved.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

The way to irritate a INFJ: use a thought process with unconscious intentions in mind. The INFJ says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as logical argument, and distorted and distracted my reasoning with your own personal issues. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."

ouoh! what is this? i don't understand any of this. can an INFJ (or [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]) explain? And is it also the line of thought of ENFJs!?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

How different these Fi/Fe threads are from those of Ti/Te Ni/Ne; or should I say Ti/Ni threads?

The Ti-Ni threads, when they are shitshow flamewars, just consist of Ni calling everyone else an idiot for not recognizing the insight facts at their disposal. Usually the argument Ni is making changes with every post, and very rarely do they actually address anything Ti has pointed out, except to declare it "irrelevant" or lob some kind of ineffectual insult at it.

Fi-Fe battles usually end in hugs. Ti-Ni battles end with Ti indifference.

The INTJs that actually engage with Ti instead of merely trying to "beat" it (I mean, I'm usually not even playing to win most of the time.) are incredibly awesome to discuss things with, though. So Ni and Ti don't need to actually be at odds with each other all the time. They can coexist harmoniously.

Imagine.

 

[highlander]

What bothers me is being criticized by said person with Fe preference for what I said or how I said it, sometimes in combination with what I did. Sometimes it's valid. Other times, it seems trivial.

 

[Society]

The INTJs that actually engage with Ti instead of merely trying to "beat" it (I mean, I'm usually not even playing to win most of the time.) are incredibly awesome to discuss things with, though. So Ni and Ti don't need to actually be at odds with each other all the time. They can coexist harmoniously.

that is very true to my experience, but i also noticed a pattern when it happened: in areas where the patience required can't be blamed on the other, but rather on the subject matter itself:
this includes both the patience required of NTPs for Ni to both do it's internal processing and back track to where it came from to understand how it got the idea and understood something, and the patience required of NTJs to watch as Ne-Ti finishes it's last few dozen^x rounds around the possible ways to break down the problem... and both of those seem to come mostly easily when progress - whether it is on a project or in further understanding something - depends on persistent, external factors .

in forum debates those are the exception to the rule, but in RL (and particularly in work environments), they are the rule.

What bothers me is being criticized helped and guided into better communication by said person with Fe preference for what I said or how I said it, sometimes in combination with what I did. Sometimes it's valid. Other times, it seems trivial.

criticize implies Fe can be judgmental, which i am sure you had no intention too. you are welcome btw

 

[Azure Flame]

I think the only thing that offends me is when people give me advice on how to fix a problem I don't actually have. Because when I ask for feedback, my emotional gate is wide open.

"You need to be more honest with yourself bro"
"You need to stop being so self critical!"

lol.

I also hate projection, which falls in line with the first problem.

 

[Evo]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] haven't been able to read the whole thread just yet...but I liked your posts I've read so far...they've been helpful!

As for the OP [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] I really like this thread!

I would say that

1) If I am getting offended, it's more for E6 reasons as a whole, than it would be offending a function of mine

2) I don't like pressure. (MANY things fit into this category)

3) I'm much more apt to feel anger and annoyance than feel offended
_______________

I'm usually the offender.

I'm much more apt to be considered a raging bitch, than to consider others that.

I will be venting and Fi/Fe doms/aux/tert. are much more apt to be taking what I'm saying and how I'm saying it as " it's the end of the world. Stay away from that person." lol

But once it's out it's out. *shrugs*
________________

So I'm gonna change this to: what type of phrasing gets my attention and most likely makes me annoyed

And I'm trying not to stereotype here...I certainly don't hold this stuff against anyone, so try to take it more along the lines of wanting feedback from others:

1) I think it was said some where here... when an Fi user discounts information cause they're biased (Ti does this too, but it's off subject so I wont go there)

I don't like when I'm explaining a story and I say someone's name, and now all of a sudden we must stop to cater to the Fi users feelings about that person.

Example:

-I'll say: "and remember when Rachel did that the o. t. h. e. r........"

-Fi-user interrupts by *scoffing*. And now for the rest of the gd conversation they have this twisted, bitter, resentful look on their gd face!

-And this face has now indicated to me that they have not been listening to a word I said -_-...cause they're too caught up on what that jezebel Rachel did to them...or made them feel.

What the heck do I do in this situation?

Never bring up Rachel ever again? Talk out the problems that they have with Rachel, so that I can get to my point? Or never talk to you again...cause all I wanna talk about is Rachel? (jk on the latter)

The subjectivety doesn't bother me...I don't care how the Fi user feels about Rachel...but why are they so stuck on it? And am I REALLY not supposed to discuss this just because THEY don't like it?

I don't feel like I should have to cater the information dealt...If someone can give me advice on the way I should present the information differently, tha'd be nice.

Otherwise...I'm going to continue to just avoid certain convos with certain Fi users.

2) Not even sure if these are Fe user things...I feel like they are more prominant with them though

a.) I don't think I can tell much to an Fe user.

I think just from past experience as I get to know the people...I give them tiny bits of information, and I can't trust that they won't tell the whole world.

Not that I mind self-disclosure, I just would like it to be MYSELF.

b.) They give me the mommy look.

Like I did something bad just because I don't agree with them...

I can get upset at this, cause I can feel the pressure, and cannot feel a way out of it in the situation at the time.

The look kinda consumes me...I think it relates to that good ol' fear of abandonment crap.

That's everything I can think of.

 

[Coriolis]

criticize implies Fe can be judgmental, which i am sure you had no intention too. you are welcome btw

Haven't you ever heard of constructive criticism? There was nothing to fix in [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]'s remark. His point seemed to be that these Fe comments are not always constructive. Not surprisingly I agree with his perspective, and often find in such situations that people are putting superficiality over substance, or judging the book by its cover.