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What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?

violet_crown

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Lots of food for thought here...

One of the thoughts I had was that Fe seems to require more active action to maintain a neutral to positive relationship. Fi seems to maintain a neutral to positive relationship even without active action being taken. Therefore NOT doing something could be seen as a withdrawal from a Fe bank account, while the same thing could be seen as a neutral action from a Fi perspective.

This is what I was trying to allude to in my post through my analogy of positive/negative rights. My INTP office mate whom I've been having difficulties with said to me explicitly that she didn't feel that I acted as though I was a part of the office that she, my boss and I all share, because I didn't do more to contribute to the space. I come to the office, I work, I go home. For her, there seemed to be a need for me to actively cultivate not only the space that we all shared, but the relationships I have with my colleagues. For me, it was more that I don't expect to be engaged in that way, so I won't in turn take the trouble to make those sorts of overtures.

I think that points to the limitations of Fi-based empathy. Rather than starting with the kind of global notion of the good that Fe-users seem to hold, we give in apportion to what we hope to receive. It may mean that we will feel incredibly deeply for another, but it's equally possible that we will feel nothing at all and feel equally justified in either case. I wouldn't mind feeling more externally accountable. (In fact, a big part of my personal ethical development was having the ENFJ I was seeing take me to task on what was admittedly some flabbily relativistic thinking on my part.) But I think that for an Fe-user to get me to that point, it takes an appeal to reason as opposed to pathos, otherwise Fi will balk.

I'm curious what you think of that as an Fe-user.
 
R

RDF

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This makes sense, to a point, but if I follow it through, it becomes circular.

Fi acts based on individual, internal values. That sense of internal obligation is accurate, and can be very strong, even in a tert-Fi user like myself. But sometimes that obligation involves observing external demands, as when I observe social conventions interacting with family elders, because respect for elders is something I value deeply.

On the Fe side, obligations do seem to come from external sources and standards, and the desire to have harmonious interactions with others. But why is satisfying these important? The desire to do so starts to look again like another internal value: the Fe user values social harmony and external standards.

I find it all confusing if I think about it for very long.

I know what you mean. There is an element of that, but I meant address personal perception of where those standards come from more (the internal experience of the specific function). Basically, it's impossible to separate these functions if we break it down enough literally, because they depend so entirely on each other to work. It's like when you study the human brain. You can point to different parts and say that's the centre where certain things are controlled, but yet all of the centres are so intricately interwoven you could simply separate them off into clear cut sections.

I would argue in your example of respecting your elders, it's still a Fi evaluation of what is right. The fact that you observe social convention is merely co-incidental. The real reason you do it is because it is a person value (ie. an obligation you impose on yourself). You can see the same thing in reverse in Fe. For example, a Fe user may seem to take a stand for the sake of, what appears to be, a Fi-style personal value (ie. doing the right thing because it is intrinsically right) but really it is an external standard. From what I've observed, Fe external standards doesn't necessarily equate with herd mentality or the relinquishment personal responsibility. I'm not sure how that works exactly, but perhaps a Fe user could explain it.

It is an interesting thought to imagine Fe is simply rooted in Fi core values. I don't have an argument against that, but perhaps others might. I would think there is more to it than that, and that maybe Fe is not really compatible with Fi like that, but I don't know.

A lot of the following is just my own opinion. But in any case:

I think Fe is the starting point. All children pick up their first set of morals early along from their parents. As children develop their personality preferences, Fi-users will pull those moral systems inside to play with them in a private “mental laboratory” setting and hone them further. After an Fi-user has treated their parents’ moral standards in this fashion, the result can be either further identification with the parents’ morals or rebellion against them; that’s largely up to the Fi-user.

In another post, I referred to this process as “self-actualization,” IOW, realizing one’s full personal potential with respect to values/morals/emotions. But the same could be said of any other functions. For example, Ni-users take the external iNtuitive process (Ne) and “self-actualize” it by pulling it down inside where problems can be isolated, set up like formulas, and worked out with mathematical rigor.

So in that sense, the extroverted version of any function is the “un-self-actualized” version, while the introverted version of the same function would be the “self-actualized” version: customized and maximized to that specific person’s full potential. INFPs self-actualize their Feeling; INFJs self-actualize their iNtuition.

I’m not sure that “self-actualized” is the best term for all this. Also there’s the issue of how and why the functions after the dominant and auxiliary functions become introverted or stay extroverted. But whatever.

Anyway, hopefully you get the point. An Fe grasp of moral systems is the starting point for all kids. Fi-users attach special meaning to emotions and values, so they seize those Fe moral systems and take them inside for additional examination, and then customize as needed to make them truly Fi. It may or may not result in substantial departures from the original Fe look of the systems. But in any case the result will be idiosyncratic and attuned to the Fi-user’s own needs, whatever that entails (i.e., based on the Fi-user's own attachment disorders, coping mechanisms, developmental idiosyncrasies etc.)

Again, this is my opinion, and the terms that I used are my own. Feel free to review or edit this idea as you please; I’m not wedded to it. It’s just a convenient device for dealing with those particular questions in my own head.
 

Fidelia

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This is awesome! It's the kind of discussion about Fe and Fi that I've been longing for, as I think it is getting to the heart of WHY we see things differently and therefore how to go approach life in a more informed way.

I've got lots of comments I want to make to this last batch of posts over the past few pages. I need more time to think it all over but there is a lot of useful stuff for me to take away. Thank you for taking the time to think it over and share what's in your head because I feel like I'm almost able to reach out and touch something that I haven't had access to before that is really helpful!!!!!!!!!
 

Lady_X

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haha! i love it when you get excited fidelia!

these comments are pretty fantastic yep.
 

Southern Kross

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Fi at it's bestFe at it's best
dom/sec:emotional introspection as means for empathy, the emotional exploration of scenario's used to better understand the points of view of others under a gradual self-study and the shedding of generalized assumptions in favor of finding the circumstances leading to one's own beliefs & emotional triggers, thus expanding the realm of projection to include a larger diversity of others. thrives under a diversity of close relationships.dom/sec:valued interaction as a mean for genuine emotional connectivity, observant of others & inclusive of their needs, accommodates the perspectives of many within a larger social platform, actively seeks opportunities to give & be helpful to others, willing to sacrifice and place one's own ego aside, dutiful towards the well being of others & actively helpful, often using Ti to solve problems for others. thrives under... (fuck if i know... still trying to figure it out, so far all i have is a growing list of what it isn't.)
tert/inf:willingly seek roles & form ideas by which they can deliver value and improve the conditions for others in both the present & future, use introspection to determine their strengths & weaknesses and define how they can best do so, at times prioritizing the utilitarian good over themselves, open and ready to except insight and information from anywhere it comes from. thrives under factually-supported self esteem. tert/inf: caring for others, conscientious of the consequences & implications towards others, uses Ti deductions as means for thoughtfulness towards others. opportunistically considerate & giving, the well being of others will often become an end in itself rather then a mean. thrives under collective problem solving & self fulfillment.
Fi at it's worstFe at it's worst
dom/sec: define everything in relations to the self as it is - make moral judgement calls based on the most literal interpretation of the golden rule, if something is out of the range of "what they would do" immediately assume malevolent intentions. feeds on alienation and isolation.dom/sec:actively lie to themselves with sociological virtues as ego decorations, stemming from idealistic notions of one's relation & value to others but not the practice, the self esteem is entranced in the appearance of things - and one does not need to change reality when one can change the appearance. self righteous & incapable of taking critical thinking or taking responsibility for the external self, control the information about one's self & exclude all who experienced it differently becomes the norm. feeds on notions of boundaries & illusion of control over one's social circumstances.
tert/inf: indulgent and self-serving, defines the world under a relationship of "me (me me me me!) vs. everyone else" leading to resentment, pigeon holing people in terms of utility for one's own ends without acknowledgment of intrinsic value, view any harm or offense to others under a self-serving guise of heroism or karma, indulge in grandiose notions of the self. feeds on others buying in to their illusions. tert/inf: insight into others as a mean to an end. manipulative & juvenile, will openly lie to others and play on the piano of social interactions simply to see what happens & learn the game for the benefit of Ti, or in order to game social interactions for one's own goals. feeds on indirect power & influence over others through deceit.
This is pretty great, mane! Very thoughtful and insightful. If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough. I'm sure we do worse shit than that. We might not be hatching evil plots to take over the world, but we can be pretty self-righteous, obnoxious and pig-headed. Some of the ter/inf negative stuff you listed can be true of us FPs as well.

Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order). There certainly are specific differences between dom/aux and ter/inf usage, which you've pointed out well, but they still draw from the same function. Maybe all the specifics of what I wrote didn't quite work in universal terms 100% (I would have to spend more time on it to refine it perfectly), but I believe there is more cross over than perhaps you imagine. Just as an example: a FJ might use a guilt trip as a form of Fe manipulation, whereas a TP con man might use it to scam people. Both require keen knowledge and awareness of the interpersonal landscape and an ability to finesse it to their needs.


BTW: wow, you wrote a whole table out in HTML - well done! I didn't even know you could do that on this site.
 

Amargith

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:heart: Guys, this is an amazing example of what can happen when expectations and open mindedness is used to bring all types together and creatively brainstorm. There is a level of constructive feedback here that is breathtakingly beautiful.

This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).

I used to be like that. I felt like I couldn't change the emotion I was experiencing - and I still have some triggers that I cannot change. And when Fe-users demand you do so, it feels like they want you to lie both to yourself and them for their own comfort level, as you have no clue how to execute what they are asking for. It is like being told by someone to ignore the splitting migraine you re going through coz you shouldn't have it in the first place. And it breeds resentment to have that expectation put on you.

Otoh, over the years, I've noticed that if you get the time, space and inclination to examine that emotion, follow it back to where it came from and notice the pattern of when it appears, you are at least one step closer to - what I call- disabling it, instead of wasting energy on repressing it. But that requires you to a) become aware of the fact that you re in the throws of it, instead of just acting on it as a kneejerk reaction and b) that others give you a chance - and as an ENFP preferably a soundboard - to actually complete that process, instead of insisting you stop it right now!

Once you have the cause pinpointed, you can backtrack which belief or anxiety is causing it and why. Then you examine *why* that fear or belief exists and whether or not it is in fact useful to you, and what you would like to replace it with if the answer is no. This process takes oodles of time though. After that, there is still the process of implementation and actively paying attention to stopping the kneejerk reaction. So yeah..it takes a while.

The reason it takes so long is because we need to see the whole picture since the response mustve originated somewhere. It is there, to pretend it aint just seems...blatantly wrong. It feels like lying to yourself when you force the emotional response to fit the outcome you want. However, if you can backtrack where it comes from and alter the causes of the response itself more to your own preferences, the integrity of the emotional information is preserved and the process becomes reliable, crystal clear and tailored to your very own beliefs. You become for that matter consciously aware of what *is* in fact important to you as a person, instead of just randomly responding to remnants of traumatic experiences from the past, or beliefs that are forcefed to you throughout your life by others - and whose integrity isnt guaranteed in the same way.

And it is, at least for me, in that way that I declutter my own emotional responses, and reprogram them in a way that is acceptable to me, authenticity and integrity guaranteed, in order to come to the outcome that I want. But yeah...it is a retarded amount of work. I wish in that respect that I could do it like an Fe-user does :smile:

AS for when those -including me- are still figuring things out - for them, their response is very much genuine and authentic, and to have others demand they sacrifice its integrity and authenticity is like asking them to throw away and condemn their very own make-up, and the dna sequence to our soul - something that could teach us - and others, which is how we love - what we re all about. Iow, it is sacrilege :alttongue:

Otoh, Ive also had to learn the hard way that connecting with people does not mean to them what it means to me. To me, connecting with others is about stripping emotionally naked and seeing them the same way - warts and all. That means you get to see my hang ups, the things Im still working on and the genuine emotional responses. It took me forever to see *why* others didn't do this - coz it makes for a more constructive, goal-oriented group/society that can accomplish a lot together if they keep their personal emotional distance, while still being emotionally connected. It took me ages to figure out the reason for it, and even more time to figure out the 'appropriate' emotional distance that was required for this. And even now, it still is taxing to me, especially in a one-on-one capacity, at times.

Yeah, that sounds like a great response! I don't think the issue is so much relating your own personal experience (Fe users do that too). It's just remembering to bring it back around to the person in question and their problem. Most people like to know that they are not alone, particularly when it's an issue that is really making them question their own competence or ability at something that matters to them. Probably too, the more overtly you can state your intentions (as you have here), the better!

This too took me forever, as other Fi-users just automatically seem to associate their own experiences - especially fellow Ne users, and spontaneously contribute. It becomes a crazy loop of associations, and you feel like peas in a pod coz you re venting about similar things, related things and see how they handled those situations. Its a combo of getting solutions through stories and venting.


With Fe-users, it made me at times stop...wait for them to contribute, have an awkward silence and panic, send my Ne in overdrive to tell another story, till I was stuck in an NeSi loop and couldnt stop coz you are terrified of the silence. Once I figured out that I should do the full circle and keep the story shorter, to get the back and forth thing going, it was a ton easier to communicate with Fe-users and feel comfortable with them :smile:

I try to do a combo of the two styles nowadays, if I get a chance. I ll automatically - like this post - speak from the 'I' perspective, but I ll try to bring it back to you by stating what to me is the obvious connection and relate it to the other person, then ask them again about how they experienced it specifically, and essentially giving them the mic. I still have to watch it that I dont get caught up in story-telling time when I get super jazzed about a topic though :blush:

warning, demo-attempt:

So yeah, I definitely agree with you that it is vital to learn that Fe-users wait politely for their turn and you have to explicitly return the spotlight to them in order to keep the conversation flowing, even if it perhaps seems stating the obvious to you as an Fi-user. And I absolutely love that you are attempting to integrate both Fi and Fe approaches by learning from this thread into your interaction style. Ive found myself that it helps cover all your bases and strengthens bonds. Besides, there is something to combining both the sharing info, povs and getting to know you part that Fi-users do, and the group strengthening goal oriented tactic of Fe-users. In fact, Id say this thread is demonstrating it to be a perfect storm when combined properly.

I'm also curious to see what it looks like from your side; what is it like to try and integrate Fi into a primarily Fe frame of mind? :thinking:
 

Amargith

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This is pretty great, mane! Very thoughtful and insightful. If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough. I'm sure we do worse shit than that. We might not be hatching evil plots to take over the world, but we can be pretty self-righteous, obnoxious and pig-headed. Some of the ter/inf negative stuff you listed can be true of us FPs as well.

Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order). There certainly are specific differences between dom/aux and ter/inf usage, which you've pointed out well, but they still draw from the same function. Maybe all the specifics of what I wrote didn't quite work in universal terms 100% (I would have to spend more time on it to refine it perfectly), but I believe there is more cross over than perhaps you imagine. Just as an example: a FJ might use a guilt trip as a form of Fe manipulation, whereas a TP con man might use it to scam people. Both require keen knowledge and awareness of the interpersonal landscape and an ability to finesse it to their needs.


BTW: wow, you wrote a whole table out in HTML - well done! I didn't even know you could do that on this site.

Agreed :heart:

I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated. Lastly, being antisocial due to an inability to compromise on their own preferences on how things should be (aka perfectionism), to the point of destroying group harmony, aka the toddler tantrum syndrome.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated..

Yeah, I've definitely witnessed this. It irks me a lot, if I may be frank. If I have understanding towards others when they seem to need it, I expect that understanding to be reciprocated, and when it isn't, I can't help but assume that the person never really cared about me that much to begin with. I'm not sure how true that is.

Regarding Fe:

tert/inf: caring for others, conscientious of the consequences & implications towards others, uses Ti deductions as means for thoughtfulness towards others. opportunistically considerate & giving, the well being of others will often become an end in itself rather then a mean. thrives under collective problem solving & self fulfillment.

tert/inf: insight into others as a mean to an end. manipulative & juvenile, will openly lie to others and play on the piano of social interactions simply to see what happens & learn the game for the benefit of Ti, or in order to game social interactions for one's own goals. feeds on indirect power & influence over others through deceit.

I flip between these two depending on how confident I feel, admittedly. Which is why I'm trying to be more confident. I've certainly made progress. I recognize that the second is bad and unhealthy.
 

Galena

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Otoh, Ive also had to learn the hard way that connecting with people does not mean to them what it means to me. To me, connecting with others is about stripping emotionally naked and seeing them the same way - warts and all. That means you get to see my hang ups, the things Im still working on and the genuine emotional responses. It took me forever to see *why* others didn't do this - coz it makes for a more constructive, goal-oriented group/society that can accomplish a lot together if they keep their personal emotional distance, while still being emotionally connected. It took me ages to figure out the reason for it, and even more time to figure out the 'appropriate' emotional distance that was required for this. And even now, it still is taxing to me, especially in a one-on-one capacity, at times.
Me, too. When I first began exploring their way, there were a lot of situations where the Fe user felt they had really connected with me while I felt I'd held back any special connection with them. Then I wondered why they kept wanting to hang out with me and considered me their friend when I'd held them at what had seemed like such a distance. I still experience the surprise a little.
 
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Southern Kross

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Agreed :heart:

I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated. Lastly, being antisocial due to an inability to compromise on their own preferences on how things should be (aka perfectionism), to the point of destroying group harmony, aka the toddler tantrum syndrome.
There you go. I knew there would be more to say. :)
 
S

Society

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If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough.

probably - the exact content of what i placed in each box was rushed... it was more a matter of syntax - of how i thought it should be done. feel free to take the boxes and add, edit or contribute anything you'd like.

Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order).

i completely agree - whether tert or dom, a function is still fundamentally the same cognitive/emotional dealing mechanism.

the idea isn't to deny that - though now that i think of it i do appreciate the irony of the possibility (a.k.a. if Fe gone bad is exclusive rather then inclusive = me trying to separating the Fe category i belong too form FJs, which would make sense that i would do given past history etc)... but i think i was actually reacting to the mix up between the results of undeveloped functions with the negative aspects of functions. but yes - underneath that there's certainly a core common to the functions regardless of where it's stacked.


A lot of the following is just my own opinion. But in any case:

I think Fe is the starting point. All children pick up their first set of morals early along from their parents. As children develop their personality preferences, Fi-users will pull those moral systems inside to play with them in a private “mental laboratory” setting and hone them further. After an Fi-user has treated their parents’ moral standards in this fashion, the result can be either further identification with the parents’ morals or rebellion against them; that’s largely up to the Fi-user.

it's interesting that we've reached similar conclusions:

i believe that the difference between Ti-Fe & Fi-Te users is that Ti-Fe users form an earlier separation of inside & outside. we all experience the reality of getting positive & negative feedback from our authority figures as infants.

but as the Fi child grows up, their internal development of a sense of self is actually slower then the rate at which they experience internal growth - so as the separations between the outside & inside slowly forms, it takes in much of the content they where brought up with and experienced to be part of their internal reality, and with it the seed for extending on those notions - starting with the simplest method of knowing that something doesn't feel right/wrong (the awareness of what feels good/bad for the self) and extending it outwards (a.k.a. the entire world is made of people in various circumstances who are fundamentally similar to you).

for the Fe child there is a much earlier separation point - so when your authority figures express approval or disapproval, it isn't a matter of what is right/wrong, it is a matter of what they think/feel - it came from the outside and it remains associated with the outside. this develops much earlier on then our understanding of language, so the Fe child becomes accustomed to listening to paying a lot of attention to voice, facial expressions & body language. and as the Fe child grows up, the need to know what is expected/objectionable builds on the same skill of understanding what the outside is attempting to communicate - essentially as the Fe child grows up, the entire world becomes the source of guiding approval/disapproval information (a.k.a. the entire world is your mommy & daddy).

these later develop into the the differences between Te & Ti:

as the Fi child developers the slow separation between the self & the outside, it didn't only include approval/disapproval, it also included likes/dislikes, preferences wishes.. it included the basics to form goals. so as it develops it's capacity for thinking, it used it as a means to execute those goals - it becomes a tool to better understand how to get from A to B. this is why Te develops as a map making tool, examining the information from above to find the path for the self to go through, filtering what information is relevant to the map.

as the Fe child develops their thinking capacity, information isn't standing in relations to the one's own goals & paths, it is standing in relations to itself, so to better understand it the inside is extended to various points within the web of information to view how it fits together form various perspectives. the Fe child becomes acute towards internal consistency & inconsistency, closed loop inter-connected systems, and extending and/or compensating on Fe's desire to understand the feedback of others through a continues refinement of semantic networks.

edit: damn it [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] - i started writing before i fall asleep and only posted now and didn't think of reloading to check who posted since - your post completely destroyed my continues strike of having my posts in the last post of thee page.
 

pinkgraffiti

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[MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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[MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
On behalf of myself and others THANK YOU! :hug:

First of all I would like to say just how awesome you are to actually ask about Fe. That is rare on this forum. There are a number of points I would like to address, but i have to run to work. I really would like to get back to this post with more thought on your "spoiler" section.
 

Coriolis

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i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
Both incidents seem rather petty. Your sister was very inconsiderate in her earlier behavior while visiting. Did you point this out to her then? I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.

As for the work incident, both managers are being unreasonable. If the first boss had reservations about your moving on after a year, he should have worked them out with you then (i.e. possibility of your working part time for each group). To release you from your agreement and then complain after the fact, and not even to you directly but to your new boss, is very petty and bordering on malicious. Just what does he hope to accomplish? It is equally unreasonable for your new boss to expect to be informed of all the other jobs you applied for but didn't get, unless some specific conflict of interest might be present. (e.g. "If you have talked with anyone at company ABC, we need to know before hiring you.") I hope you made clear to her that the old boss was agreeable to your moving on after a year. He should be the one looking bad in all this.
 

Vilku

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Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
the demanding of capitalization and correctiism. i rather not conform to irrational ideals.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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sx/sp
I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.


I’m sure this does get annoying. It’s difficult though, when the ability to discern these kinds of things isn’t readily available. In the moment it’s ridiculously hard to tell the difference between feeling angry because things aren’t going my way (which is the embarrassing kind of angry) and feeling angry because someone else really has done something that felt disrespectful. It can take a long time for that difference to surface. For what it’s worth, I only really bother going to people to clean up past incidents (when I realize I actually was angry for the latter reason) when they’re important to me- because I know holding on to it secretly will only pollute the relationship. Sharing it with someone so far after the fact is kind of like cleaning out a junk drawer, it's necessary to keep the interpersonal dynamic running smoothly. And there’s a good chance the person is pretty annoyed with themselves too, it's embarrassing to take such a long time to realize these things.

It’s weird though- you know how the water in a pond will become murky when something stirs it? That’s what it’s like to be Fe and to get upset. I’ll only have any idea of what stirred everything up in the first place once everything in the water has settled and I have a chance to examine what slowly becomes visible. It's mind blowing difficult for me to say something in the moment.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
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[MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)

For people with strong Fe who are positive, it can be helpful to communicate with a positive tone. The best ones tend to make an effort to please others, have a hard time saying "no", and so get over-extended. I've also seen a dynamic in which people realize the Fe person desires social harmony and so they deliberately become negative to manipulate the person because they know the person will work to recreate that harmony. When people see someone who is openly nice and giving, there is also a tendency for them to feel entitled to a piece of that. If the over-extended Fe person doesn't give them the attention and time they desire, they become openly critical of the Fe person in an attempt to manipulate some time and attention out of them. Many people feel emotionally deprived because their parents, sibling, friends, peers, were mean, withholding, critical and draining. As a result, many people feel a personal emotional debt, so when they see someone offering emotional support and attention, they latch on and expect them to fill that void. This is often done unconsciously, so many people would deny being guilty of this, but it's there in plain sight for anyone ready to observe.

This is the biggest issue for Fe-dom/aux who are specifically kindhearted and who focus on social interaction. Some IFJs manage to find ways to put up walls to protect against this floodgate of human need and demands.

In the examples you have given in your spoiler, I don't see the problem being with Fe vs. Fi. If anything, your position was more Fe like as the person planning and working to make the group comfortable. I wouldn't call the other people's inconsiderate behavior as Fi, but just as people being selfish and dismissive of your needs. It tends to be better to avoid people who behave this way, but if you cannot, then it makes sense to plan for their behavior. If they are coming over for dinner, just get a pizza to throw in the oven when they arrive the first night and make the more special meal the next day with their help in the kitchen chatting. If you get hungry waiting, remember that they are unpredictable and have a snack. You can still eat a little whenever they arrive, but just take care of your own needs.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Sorry for the edit: I accidentally left out a break in the quote - fixed.
 

pinkgraffiti

New member
Joined
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Both incidents seem rather petty. Your sister was very inconsiderate in her earlier behavior while visiting. Did you point this out to her then? I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.

As for the work incident, both managers are being unreasonable. If the first boss had reservations about your moving on after a year, he should have worked them out with you then (i.e. possibility of your working part time for each group). To release you from your agreement and then complain after the fact, and not even to you directly but to your new boss, is very petty and bordering on malicious. Just what does he hope to accomplish? It is equally unreasonable for your new boss to expect to be informed of all the other jobs you applied for but didn't get, unless some specific conflict of interest might be present. (e.g. "If you have talked with anyone at company ABC, we need to know before hiring you.") I hope you made clear to her that the old boss was agreeable to your moving on after a year. He should be the one looking bad in all this.

exactly, thank you! when shit like this happens (especially the thing with my sister, it drove me bonkers) i always feel like i'm living in a different planet and have very high standards or speak another language
ps. yes, i did tell me sister exactly why i wasn't happy at the time. she just shrugged. but she always shrugs when i have any complaints, same as my mother. as both are Fe users, i thought this was connected to Fe. but maybe they're just inconsiderate, like you say.

For people with strong Fe who are positive, it can be helpful to communicate with a positive tone. The best ones tend to make an effort to please others, have a hard time saying "no", and so get over-extended. I've also seen a dynamic in which people realize the Fe person desires social harmony and so they deliberately become negative to manipulate the person because they know the person will work to recreate that harmony. When people see someone who is openly nice and giving, there is also a tendency for them to feel entitled to a piece of that. If the over-extended Fe person doesn't give them the attention and time they desire, they become openly critical of the Fe person in an attempt to manipulate some time and attention out of them. Many people feel emotionally deprived because their parents, sibling, friends, peers, were mean, withholding, critical and draining. As a result, many people feel a personal emotional debt, so when they see someone offering emotional support and attention, they latch on and expect them to fill that void. This is often done unconsciously, so many people would deny being guilty of this, but it's there in plain sight for anyone ready to observe.

This is the biggest issue for Fe-dom/aux who are specifically kindhearted and who focus on social interaction. Some IFJs manage to find ways to put up walls to protect against this floodgate of human need and demands.

ok, what you say is important, but is not my real problem with Fe. you are talking about "good" Fe, when Fe is kind and considerate of other people's needs. i appreciate this very much (grew up with an ENFJ mother) and like to protect and praise my ENFJ and INFJ friends when they are like this. but this is one-on-one communication with an Fe user, and i can handle it mostly fine i think.

what i might have more difficulty comprehending is Fe working in social groups. i think this is my biggy. when they make me feel like i have to change myself to accommodate a group. i had an ESFJ supervisor who just drove me mad all the time. she manipulated people to form "in" and "out" groups and tried to dictate our working environment, from imposing the radio station to imposing certain times and places where we should all have lunch together, to forcing us to follow her conversation topics and allocate time to hear her speak about trivial issues. she was good at being PR and putting people together, but completely tyrannical in allowing each one of us to have our personal liberties.
i guess she was an extreme. so let me get back to what i wanted to say. i have difficulty following through with social conventions, i don't understand what seem to be the "unwritten laws of social etiquette", and this sphere seems to be ruled by Fe-users. so it would be nice if you could give me some tips on what those rules are. and how i should behave so that it is clear to Fe-users that i'm not rude and mean no harm (i'm just not experienced in being socially-nice like them). you see, my only rule is to respect each person's free will and not step on anyone's toes (i guess this is Fi). but it seems that this isn't enough with Fe-users (am i confusing Fe-users with So-doms? so sorry if it's the case, then i'm an idiot)
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
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Edited previous post. My wording reinforced stereotypes I don't actually believe.

Unrelated, I get uncomfortable when an intimate is compassionate when I make a mistake or have a problem because of my relation to them, but then treats people outside our circle hatefully when they do the exact same thing.

I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.
This disturbs me. If I didn't understand I was wronging someone two years ago, I might have made the same mistake again since, toward more people. It's nobody's responsibility but mine to increase my self awareness, but I also just don't want to hurt people, and fewer is better.
 
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