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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    "Offends"?

    I dunno, being a total dickhole about what one communicates can be grating, but cooler heads prevail. "Like a river over stone," man. One should ideally learn to separate the dickholeness from the core message so that the latter isn't completely discarded--but the separation can still be murky.

    The dickholeness itself provides clues. Some people simply have that style of delivery, some consciously protect a feeble and pithy core message inside a war machine, some actually believe that their messages are stronger than they are (e.g. out of arrogance), and some actually have legitimate, strong messages that wouldn't be heard if not for a strong delivery.
    Also, message 'gift wraps' such as "Yes actually means no" can be offensive when they insinuate that that the receiver can't handle the speaker's actual perspective. The motivation for that particular wrapping can also be one of several--fear of damaging the relationship, wanting to spare the other's feelings, and so on. That class of wrapping is usually short-sighted, but it's okay to be short-sighted if the relationship between the two isn't expected to be close.

    If I had to crumple this whole shebang up and spitball it at a cognitive function, I suppose I'd haphazardly aim for Fe; but I'd love to see whether those from various function-perspectives (?) agree or disagree with the overall sentiment.

  2. #82
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't consider myself a spokesperson for Fe. I think it's just that the same people tend to be willing to participate in certain discussion. I'd like to know too about where Ni/Ne starts bleeding into Fe. If something is offensive, I want to understand why, because that's where I think most of the learning happens.

    I have appreciated the fact that some people have ducked in here whose thoughts I often don't get to hear or who I can learn something about because the function in question occupies a different position in the lineup.

    Fineline delineated his approach with INFJs very well. I agree that it is effective, and I also have thought of several different ways in which I need to adopt elements of his style. One of the things that I really admire is that he doesn't take rejection of a discussion as rejection of him personally, which allows for the other person to then come to him more easily. The other thing he has done well is defining the boundaries of the discussion. He is accommodating, but still brings things back to what the original aim was. This is tremendously reassuring for me, because Ni/Ti can overwhelm me with so many details, that it is difficult for me to decide what belongs in the discussion and what goes outside of it. By him making clear what it is that he needs, it not only makes it more likely that I can deliver it, but it also helps me reign in and trim the information that makes it more manageable. Then he even giftwraps it up with a nice summarized form!

  3. #83
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've been having interpersonal difficulties with my INTP office mate over the last several months that basically can be boiled down to a fundamentally different view of relating. The best I can articulate the distinction is that it's something akin to positive versus negative rights. Relating and connectedness for Fe is understood in a "positive" sense in that it is active and generally obliges action. The existence of a relationship between two people is dependent upon their participation in it--the things those involved do to outwardly acknowledge the bond they share, and the extent to which they act out the role that that bond has created for them. I'm not exactly doing the mindset justice, but it's what I seem to get from it.

    The Fi perspective takes a "negative" view of attachment. The inaction that preserves the integrity of individual space. Fi relationships are about that freedom to simply be without anything interfering with the other party's expression of themness. There's that desire to get to that point where you feel connectedness on that deepest level to glimpse deeper still into that common thing that gives rise to us all. That emphasis, though, on individual space also leads to the mentality that what happens in your space is on your terms. No one is owed anything just 'cause. Fi-users don't oblige easy, and that "positive" Fe attitude can end up looking like so much self-entitled bullshit to us. Your uniqueness, your value as an individual is inherent to you, and can't be diminished by me acknowledging it or not. It's yours; it's sacrosanct and inviolate. Give me the chance to give you something real and genuine, freely. Being compelled to externalize the feeling that I have for you, that connectedness between us, is like being violated. It creates grounds for heartfelt loathing.

    I understand why Fe could find such an attitude to be selfish. There is more in play and at stake than how I feel about something individually. There is some greater good to be considered out there somewhere, I guess. And, moreover, I'm apart of that greater collective whether I "choose" to be or not. While there are no islands, there are the things that we share in common. Those things can be anything--material, intellectual, emotional, whatever--and it's the voluntary giving and taking of them that creates relationships. Fe entitlement, in my view, utterly corrodes that interaction. When someone's basic attitude is that they have some sort of "right" to partake in what's yours, or have some say in how you manage yours without any greater justification than some vague appeals to "common courtesy", it's hard to construe it as anything other than a power play.

    That gets at the heart of my issues with Fe. Despite all it's anxious feelings about it's myriad obligations, it's fundamental lack of respect for individual choice means that it has no real concept of responsibility. Or freedom. You can't have either without respect for choice.

    These things only crystallized for me as of late. Not totally unrelatedly, I've been catching up on Breaking Bad over the past month or so, and have joined many others in my contempt for Walter's ENFJ wife, Skyler. Anna Gunn, the actress who plays her, wrote an op-ed for The Times a couple of weeks ago defending her character by saying that people hated her because she was a "strong woman", and, you know, sexism. To be fair, I don't see her as particularly strong. I think if your basic attitude is that everyone owes you something, it'd probably be pretty easy to go around being demanding, controlling, and generally placing what you feel to be best above any other consideration. Why would you ever be otherwise?
    Lots of food for thought here...

    One of the thoughts I had was that Fe seems to require more active action to maintain a neutral to positive relationship. Fi seems to maintain a neutral to positive relationship even without active action being taken. Therefore NOT doing something could be seen as a withdrawal from a Fe bank account, while the same thing could be seen as a neutral action from a Fi perspective.

    Need to mull over this more and I'd like to get back to it. Also Southern Cross's post earlier on and anyone else I've missed.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Lots of food for thought here...

    One of the thoughts I had was that Fe seems to require more active action to maintain a neutral to positive relationship. Fi seems to maintain a neutral to positive relationship even without active action being taken. Therefore NOT doing something could be seen as a withdrawal from a Fe bank account, while the same thing could be seen as a neutral action from a Fi perspective.

    Need to mull over this more and I'd like to get back to it. Also Southern Cross's post earlier on and anyone else I've missed.
    That's pretty impressive... I mean in an emotionally healthy sort of way for you to consider that possible perspective. It's not one I've considered before and I don't know how I feel about it yet.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #85
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Lots of food for thought here...

    One of the thoughts I had was that Fe seems to require more active action to maintain a neutral to positive relationship. Fi seems to maintain a neutral to positive relationship even without active action being taken. Therefore NOT doing something could be seen as a withdrawal from a Fe bank account, while the same thing could be seen as a neutral action from a Fi perspective.

    Need to mull over this more and I'd like to get back to it. Also Southern Cross's post earlier on and anyone else I've missed.
    This is interesting. I rarely get upset in the absence of action, and have noticed quite a few of the Fe users I'm close to become upset by it.

    Anyone have any ideas as to why?
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #86
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    it feels as tho it could be something as simple as not "managing" the emotional vibe in the room...in a sense leaving that task up to them.

    or maybe that feels accusatory. it's not meant to. just that we are being self contained and they are being focused outward...in that way.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #87
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post

    The Fi perspective takes a "negative" view of attachment. The inaction that preserves the integrity of individual space. Fi relationships are about that freedom to simply be without anything interfering with the other party's expression of themness. There's that desire to get to that point where you feel connectedness on that deepest level to glimpse deeper still into that common thing that gives rise to us all. That emphasis, though, on individual space also leads to the mentality that what happens in your space is on your terms. No one is owed anything just 'cause. Fi-users don't oblige easy, and that "positive" Fe attitude can end up looking like so much self-entitled bullshit to us. Your uniqueness, your value as an individual is inherent to you, and can't be diminished by me acknowledging it or not. It's yours; it's sacrosanct and inviolate. Give me the chance to give you something real and genuine, freely. Being compelled to externalize the feeling that I have for you, that connectedness between us, is like being violated. It creates grounds for heartfelt loathing.
    this is awesomely well explained and i'd love to give you a huge kiss for that
    (however, walter irritates me way more than skyler )

  8. #88
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Hmm. I identify with stuff that is described both as Fe and Fi. Usually assume no news is good news unless it's a drastic change in a previous pattern.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #89
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yeah i'm not entirely sure about that myself... hypothetically Fi/Fe should be inclusive to TJs/TPs, but this seems more intended as an FP/FJ off continuity (with Ne/Ni shit getting muddled up.. some of it i am actually finding offensive).
    Whenever I see the term Fe/Fi "users" used in the context of these sorts of threads I tend to assume we're talking about those with Feeling in either the first or second position. Mostly because I can never really relate, to pretty much anything that is discussed.

    Not sure why you'd find anything offensive.



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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Whenever I see the term Fe/Fi "users" used in the context of these sorts of threads I tend to assume we're talking about those with Feeling in either the first or second position. Mostly because I can never really relate, to pretty much anything that is discussed.

    Not sure why you'd find anything offensive.
    curious...why is it i wonder intjs seem to relate more to their fi than you all do to your fe? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!!???
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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