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  1. #71
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Have you ever been in a dynamic where someone is moody (Fi or Fe) and the rest of the Fi people pick up the mood like a bad cold and the Fe people get silent and start cold-shouldering the moody person and getting all righteous about it because they see them as the cause of the problem rather than trying to figure out where the problem really lies? Ya. Instead of trying to solve it everyone gets caught up in it rather than trying to transcend it.

    As a person who is nether Fe or Te dominant, I feel like I can reside outside of each, reaching into them sometimes and creating solutions. This is where irl I do well. I am wired to step in. Moodiness is usually simple to address ... then everything else starts to tuck back in. I just head off those issues at the start usually, before they build, keeping things smooth. I can see that kind of stuff coming miles off for sure.

    So, what bugs me in general about Fe? That people are treated well or poorly depending on where the Fe person has assigned them in their trust circle. Like the tier concept that's being discussed in Z Buck's thread. You can see it in fidelia's responses to each person in the thread and to me. For example, I am in a lower tier with her than some others, I'm not out, but not at the friendly neutral spot either - a bit lower. You can feel it in tone and in comparison to other posts, I am not thanked for my contribution, I am spoken to in a more terse and stern manner and increasingly, I am always mentioned at the outset, like I am receiving a bit of a lecture. (@PB, I this and I that.) You might wonder what I've done to earn this, but basically it boils down to not regularly engaging Fe the way it wishes to be engaged.

    (...)

    I guess that is what it boils down to. I don't often feel that mutual respect. I think for the most part an Fi user simply learns what to do and not do to get along, with Fe and Te. Getting along with Fe, however, feels more trying because the emotional realm is so highly discounted in value by Ni - Fe, yet it is the Fi dom's realm. I didn't realize the full extent of that until the last year probably.
    yup, i noticed this too, so don't think you're the only one feeling this way. !!

  2. #72
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Also it occurs to me that I could've taken the opportunity to learn how to fe relate with my last post. Or communicate in a fe ish way but I'm still not sure I know how I could've explained that in that way.
    No, no! You make perfect sense just the way you are.

  3. #73
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    yup, i noticed this too, so don't think you're the only one feeling this way. !!
    Noticed this with regards to her treatment or with yours? Because of you're talking about with you, it was completely unintentional and more likely that in the haste to address all the points being made, I missed something. I was aware of that at the time and feeling badly about it, which is why I even said, "I can't keep up!". I addressed the things that felt most urgent to me first or that I had an off the top of my head response to, with plans to go back and read the rest of the thread. I think I missed a couple of the first longer posts entirely, simply because I was trying to remember how I would multiquote from several different posts.

    With PB, I just don't want a fight, this is a chronic INFJ hitch with her that there seems to be (see Z Buck and Eilonwy's blogs as well as numerous other Fe/Fi threads) and since I don't have a solution for doing it better, I have made a conscious decision to engage less even though it isn't borne out of dislike or disrespect. It just feels like an impasse.

  4. #74
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Anyway, I'm gone for the afternoon. Again, sorry for any bad feelings I've incurred.

  5. #75
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    I've been having interpersonal difficulties with my INTP office mate over the last several months that basically can be boiled down to a fundamentally different view of relating. The best I can articulate the distinction is that it's something akin to positive versus negative rights. Relating and connectedness for Fe is understood in a "positive" sense in that it is active and generally obliges action. The existence of a relationship between two people is dependent upon their participation in it--the things those involved do to outwardly acknowledge the bond they share, and the extent to which they act out the role that that bond has created for them. I'm not exactly doing the mindset justice, but it's what I seem to get from it.

    The Fi perspective takes a "negative" view of attachment. The inaction that preserves the integrity of individual space. Fi relationships are about that freedom to simply be without anything interfering with the other party's expression of themness. There's that desire to get to that point where you feel connectedness on that deepest level to glimpse deeper still into that common thing that gives rise to us all. That emphasis, though, on individual space also leads to the mentality that what happens in your space is on your terms. No one is owed anything just 'cause. Fi-users don't oblige easy, and that "positive" Fe attitude can end up looking like so much self-entitled bullshit to us. Your uniqueness, your value as an individual is inherent to you, and can't be diminished by me acknowledging it or not. It's yours; it's sacrosanct and inviolate. Give me the chance to give you something real and genuine, freely. Being compelled to externalize the feeling that I have for you, that connectedness between us, is like being violated. It creates grounds for heartfelt loathing.

    I understand why Fe could find such an attitude to be selfish. There is more in play and at stake than how I feel about something individually. There is some greater good to be considered out there somewhere, I guess. And, moreover, I'm apart of that greater collective whether I "choose" to be or not. While there are no islands, there are the things that we share in common. Those things can be anything--material, intellectual, emotional, whatever--and it's the voluntary giving and taking of them that creates relationships. Fe entitlement, in my view, utterly corrodes that interaction. When someone's basic attitude is that they have some sort of "right" to partake in what's yours, or have some say in how you manage yours without any greater justification than some vague appeals to "common courtesy", it's hard to construe it as anything other than a power play.

    That gets at the heart of my issues with Fe. Despite all it's anxious feelings about it's myriad obligations, it's fundamental lack of respect for individual choice means that it has no real concept of responsibility. Or freedom. You can't have either without respect for choice.

    These things only crystallized for me as of late. Not totally unrelatedly, I've been catching up on Breaking Bad over the past month or so, and have joined many others in my contempt for Walter's ENFJ wife, Skyler. Anna Gunn, the actress who plays her, wrote an op-ed for The Times a couple of weeks ago defending her character by saying that people hated her because she was a "strong woman", and, you know, sexism. To be fair, I don't see her as particularly strong. I think if your basic attitude is that everyone owes you something, it'd probably be pretty easy to go around being demanding, controlling, and generally placing what you feel to be best above any other consideration. Why would you ever be otherwise?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, what bugs me in general about Fe? That people are treated well or poorly depending on where the Fe person has assigned them in their trust circle. Like the tier concept that's being discussed in Z Buck's thread. You can see it in fidelia's responses to each person in the thread and to me. For example, I am in a lower tier with her than some others, I'm not out, but not at the friendly neutral spot either - a bit lower. You can feel it in tone and in comparison to other posts, I am not thanked for my contribution, I am spoken to in a more terse and stern manner and increasingly, I am always mentioned at the outset, like I am receiving a bit of a lecture. (@PB, I this and I that.) You might wonder what I've done to earn this, but basically it boils down to not regularly engaging Fe the way it wishes to be engaged.[...]
    I think I’m more “stolid” than you, in a Te-ish sort of way.

    As I said to Fidelia, my guiding light is the universal rules of boundaries.

    For example, it doesn’t matter to me what “tier” an Fe-user puts me on. That’s in the mind of the other person. If the “tier placement” manifests itself in a little coolness, that’s fine too. We don’t have to like each other; that’s immaterial in a boundaried relationship. As long as we can still communicate more or less respectfully, i.e., hear each other’s voices and mirror each other (address the points that the other person raised).

    Also, I try to make my boundaries very visible and then stick to them religiously. In the other thread I said that I was simply interested in hearing how INFJs experience Fe and capturing a snapshot of INFJ thinking, and then I would reciprocate with a snapshot of INFP thinking. And that’s exactly where we’re at. That conversation could peter out right now, and that would be fine. I’m happy to have gotten exactly what I set out to get.

    Same with this thread. I complained about Fe venting, and Fidelia and I have stayed pretty close to that. I haven’t raised unrelated issues; I’ve just explained about why I prefer to handle Fe venting with boundaries as opposed to coddling.

    Anyway, that’s my experience. Fe-users are into boundaries, so I try to keep my own boundaries high and visible: I announce early exactly why I’m in the thread, and I stay as close as possible to my original intentions.

    I would contrast that to the typical “Fi vs Fe” thread, which tends to be a long, rambling, everything-but-the-kitchen-sink affair. And I don’t mean any offense to you, PB; you’re just one participant among many in those threads. But I can see why Fe-users get defensive and prickly in those threads. The lack of boundaries and the ad hoc nature of such threads is stunning even to me.

    Anyway, that’s my off-the-cuff interpretation of why I might be getting better treatment despite being an Fi-Dom. I’m pretty good at boundaries, and Fe-users seem to respect that. I just figured I would throw that explanation/interpretation out there. If nothing else, it kind of illustrates exactly what Fidelia and I were already discussing. Of course YMMV, and I'll understand if you're seeing a whole different dynamic in your relation with the INFJ members.

    (By the way, in reference to the dynamic that you mentioned at the start of your post of a moody person infecting everyone else: Again, boundaries help there. I’ve gotten very good at ignoring people’s morale around me. Like I said earlier, I don’t coddle moody INFPs. I just go my own way.)

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    With regard to Peacebaby's comments - I thought I was being courteous by tagging her, as she had said that she was going to leave the thread, and I wanted her to know that I was acknowledging what she said. I also have found in the past that when I am more open, she becomes more prescriptive in expecting me to relate to her in a more Fi way and I am simply unable to do that or at a loss for how to do it. I also tend to tag people to provide clarity for who I am responding to (longer posts usually mean someone is likely to have posted in between so I can't address the person directly) and because I get exceited about a particular point and have to answer it right then and there.

    The tier thing is an involuntary response to not being on the same page as each other, rather than a conscious moving people up or down depending how much I like them. I unconsciously weigh whether the amount of effort spent in communicating is worth the potential fireworks/hurt feelings that could result. In my experience with Peacebaby, I feel that she has great expertise that I don't possess in some areas. However, I've found Fe/Fi discussions with her to invariably end in her feeling that she is being rejected by me. I don't feel that way, and beyond telling her I don't feel that way and saying that if she just gives me the information as she sees it and then enough space to digest it I'll probably come to her with questions or overtures, I don't know what else to do. I feel like I am not being given space by her, so I tend to keep taking backward steps in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again. These backward steps are taken as dislike, rather than I'm holding a gas can and you're holding a torch and if we're both running near each other, they might ignite and inadvertently hurt someone.

    So I felt badly initially, but at some point in time after this has repeatedly happened, I cease to feel as badly because the person in question is repeatedly interacting in a way that I know will only end badly and I don't want to contribute to that. I like PB and it seems like the lesser of two evils for me to just take a slight step back.
    Well I certainly have no complaints about the other thread (or this one). In the other thread, you and Z Buck McFate have been very cooperative in meeting me half-way and accommodating my demands concerning how I needed to hear the info you gave me. As I explained to PB, I deliberately exhibited a lot of boundaries so that you could see in advance what my intentions in the thread were, and I think that helped our communications.

  8. #78
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think I’m more “stolid” than you, in a Te-ish sort of way.

    As I said to Fidelia, my guiding light is the universal rules of boundaries.

    For example, it doesn’t matter to me what “tier” an Fe-user puts me on. That’s in the mind of the other person. If the “tier placement” manifests itself in a little coolness, that’s fine too. We don’t have to like each other; that’s immaterial in a boundaried relationship. As long as we can still communicate more or less respectfully (i.e., hear each other’s voices and mirror each other).

    Also, I try to make my boundaries very visible and then stick to them religiously. In the other thread I said that I was simply interested in hearing how INFJs experience Fe and capturing a snapshot of INFJ thinking, and then I would reciprocate with a snapshot of INFP thinking. And that’s exactly where we’re at. That conversation could peter out right now, and that would be fine. I’m happy to have gotten exactly what I set out to get.

    Same with this thread. I complained about Fe venting, and Fidelia and I have stayed pretty close to that. I haven’t raised unrelated issues; I’ve just explained about why I prefer to handle Fe venting with boundaries as opposed to coddling.

    Anyway, that’s my experience. Fe-users are into boundaries, so I try to keep my own boundaries high and visible: I announce early exactly why I’m in the thread, and I stay as close as possible to my original intentions.

    I would contrast that to the typical “Fi vs Fe” thread, which tends to be a long, rambling, everything-but-the-kitchen-sink affair. And I don’t mean any offense to you, PB; you’re just one participant among many in those threads. But I can see why Fe-users get defensive and prickly in those threads. The lack of boundaries and the ad hoc nature of such threads is stunning even to me.

    Anyway, that’s my off-the-cuff interpretation of why I might be getting better treatment despite being an Fi-Dom. I’m pretty good at boundaries, and Fe-users seem to respect that. I just figured I would throw that explanation/interpretation out there. If nothing else, it kind of illustrates exactly what Fidelia and I were already discussing. Of course YMMV, and I'll understand if you're seeing a whole different dynamic in your relation with the INFJ members.

    (By the way, in reference to the dynamic that you mentioned at the start of your post of a moody person infecting everyone else: Again, boundaries help there. I’ve gotten very good at ignoring people’s morale around me. Like I said earlier, I don’t coddle moody INFPs. I just go my own way.)
    Okay see I often feel the same with infjs. I'd say that Dom fe is felt differently but I still don't really have issues with it per se. It's more of feeling as tho my communication style frustrates them.

    So I don't know if that's a so thing like suggested or a fi Dom thing but I don't feel personally attacked pretty much ever in these discussions.

    Also I usually don't feel too affected by moody persons mood unless they are the reason I'm there. If that makes sense. I could be with a group of friends or at a family members house and one person is moody. It doesn't bother me unless the point of me being there is for me and this person to hang out.

    And I usually try to empathize and bring them out of the mood before allowing it to infect me.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Edit: I see I don't belong here. Oops.
    yeah i'm not entirely sure about that myself... hypothetically Fi/Fe should be inclusive to TJs/TPs, but this seems more intended as an FP/FJ off continuity (with Ne/Ni shit getting muddled up.. some of it i am actually finding offensive).

  10. #80
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yeah i'm not entirely sure about that myself... hypothetically Fi/Fe should be inclusive to TJs/TPs, but this seems more intended as an FP/FJ off continuity (with Ne/Ni shit getting muddled up.. some of it i am actually finding offensive).
    Oh interesting. I would like to know what you've found offensive and why. Also I think we all super enjoyed highlanders contribution and he's just fi tert.... So why not??
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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