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  1. #61
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Just wanted to reiterate (to the whole thread, not specifically to you fidelia) that BEHAVIOUR cannot (and should not) be directly tracked to FUNCTIONS. It's just ... unreliable. I acknowledge there are patterns and differences that I see play out again and again, but it's not necessarily about how you see someone manifest in the world. There's far more going on than those functional underpinnings.
    You have a good point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I agree with pinkgraffiti. I understand PeaceBaby’s point that not all Fi-users do these things; but there’s definitely a stereotype to the effect that Fi can be moody and a bit self-centered. And as an Fi-user, I tend to think the stereotype has a basis in fact.
    But I do agree with that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Very helpful on both counts! I think part of the distress for me that comes from moodiness is that I am not sure how to deal with it. Something like this at least gives some tools for addressing it in a more proactive (and hopefully pleasant) way.
    This partly I think is the attraction between INTJs and ENFPs. ENFPs have an intuitive knack for understanding how to deal with this. They are capable of pulling the INTJ out of those moods. They help them look at things from another perspective, make them not take themselves so seriously, make them laugh, etc. It's like "grumble, grumble... " followed by small grin.

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  2. #62
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i wonder if this being mostly an Fe-aux Fi-aux discussion has actually helped not raise the sensitivities. maybe Fe-dom Fi-dom would have been more complicated.

    also, i totally agree with you on the Fi-Fi being useful for discussion of people outside the relationship and not so good when facing each other. i think i read on a socionics site that ENFP-INFP works pretty well as a team facing the same direction, but as soon as the direction becomes facing each other, then it starts a shitstorm.
    ughh yes and we both have very intimate experience with that don't we? and i'll tell you...it's not that way with two enfps either from my experience. another main thing is he pretty much hates my te. and i think i hate his too...if that's what it is...haha
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #63
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes, I can see how this sounds confusing. Certainly I do feel my feelings. However, the more intense they are, the difficult I find it to take any kind of action. I don't trust that I am being objective. I need help distancing myself enough that I can look at the situation in an informed way and make a decision for myself out of the possible choices. For example, I may feel really unsettled about something somebody said. However, when I look at their words, I can't see any reason why they should provoke that kind of reaction in me. Yet, I've learned form experience that that reaction means that there is something there that actually does need examination. Through discussing it, my focus isn't on the thing unsettling me or the emotion it provoked. It's on the WHY I'm finding it unsettling. So, as I describe the situation, the person's body language and what they say, it may suddenly click with me that their body language and their words didn't match up, unconsciously provoking that reaction. Then I might hypothesize about what that might mean and which of the two to put more weight on. After all that work is done, then I will make a much more informed decision about which course of action to take. Having someone else to do this with is very helpful. It's kind being the Watson to Sherlock or the other doctors to House. You may not even come up with the answer, but as I explain more fully what I saw, I suddenly notice details that I had missed before which are more significant than I realized.

    It may seem very strange to hear this, but for me, sometimes I may have an emotion, but I don't always recognize in the moment how strong it is, what significance it has, or why it popped up when it did, especially if I wasn't expecting it. (Usually I can guess what I am going to feel about something and anticipate my response ahead of time. When something unexpected happens, I find it very hard to deal with that emotion in the moment and then pick a course of action right away. It's like the emotion (the house fire) needs addressing first, and then I can decide what it means and how to deal with it.

    If I direct negative emotions outward, it usually is with some intended purpose in mind. At my worst, it's a way of making people feel how unhappy I am at the moment and respond in some way (sulking, slamming doors, silent treatment, non-communicativeness would all fall into this category). At my best, it means that I have exhausted every variable that I can affect on my own and am now turning to you for assistance in altering the situation. Either way, there is some intended action in mind. Ideally, that should be verbalized, but many Fe users think they are speaking a universal language and so assume the other person sees their need and is just choosing to do nothing about it. (Think of the stereotypical men are from mars women are from venus type scenarios). Fe users often don't realize that they are using the same words, but that they mean different things to some extent, so the Fi user may not recognize their request as a request.

  4. #64
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I'm really aware of how often I use personal stories or even just speak in "I" terms, but it feels so out I'd my comfort zone to tell people what they should do! A lot of times, when I start to talk about another person's problems, I immediately get this 'WARNING! WARNING! You can't tell them how to live their life. You don't know what it's like to be in their situation. How dare you assume you know what's best for them." Then I relate it back to myself as a last-ditch effort to not over-step my bounds.

    I'm loving all the tips though. I can totally repeat things back and ask questions to better understand the problem. As long as its not too invasive and prying (which is what I fear when taking that approach).

    @IndyAnnaJoan, so funny about your Fe sister thinking you're always trying to be rebellious! That's the story of my life! I'm the only non-Fe user on my family, and I've encountered that forever.
    Yes! The bolded! Exactly how I feel a lot of the times.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #65
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yes, I can see how this sounds confusing. Certainly I do feel my feelings. However, the more intense they are, the difficult I find it to take any kind of action. I don't trust that I am being objective. I need help distancing myself enough that I can look at the situation in an informed way and make a decision for myself out of the possible choices. For example, I may feel really unsettled about something somebody said. However, when I look at their words, I can't see any reason why they should provoke that kind of reaction in me. Yet, I've learned form experience that that reaction means that there is something there that actually does need examination. Through discussing it, my focus isn't on the thing unsettling me or the emotion it provoked. It's on the WHY I'm finding it unsettling. So, as I describe the situation, the person's body language and what they say, it may suddenly click with me that their body language and their words didn't match up, unconsciously provoking that reaction. Then I might hypothesize about what that might mean and which of the two to put more weight on. After all that work is done, then I will make a much more informed decision about which course of action to take. Having someone else to do this with is very helpful. It's kind being the Watson to Sherlock or the other doctors to House. You may not even come up with the answer, but as I explain more fully what I saw, I suddenly notice details that I had missed before which are more significant than I realized.

    It may seem very strange to hear this, but for me, sometimes I may have an emotion, but I don't always recognize in the moment how strong it is, what significance it has, or why it popped up when it did, especially if I wasn't expecting it. (Usually I can guess what I am going to feel about something and anticipate my response ahead of time. When something unexpected happens, I find it very hard to deal with that emotion in the moment and then pick a course of action right away. It's like the emotion (the house fire) needs addressing first, and then I can decide what it means and how to deal with it.

    If I direct negative emotions outward, it usually is with some intended purpose in mind. At my worst, it's a way of making people feel how unhappy I am at the moment and respond in some way (sulking, slamming doors, silent treatment, non-communicativeness would all fall into this category). At my best, it means that I have exhausted every variable that I can affect on my own and am now turning to you for assistance in altering the situation. Either way, there is some intended action in mind. Ideally, that should be verbalized, but many Fe users think they are speaking a universal language and so assume the other person sees their need and is just choosing to do nothing about it. (Think of the stereotypical men are from mars women are from venus type scenarios). Fe users often don't realize that they are using the same words, but that they mean different things to some extent, so the Fi user may not recognize their request as a request.
    okay yes...*warning* about to fi relate first haha!

    but okay! i get this! because you're using ti in support of fe...right? just as i/we will use te in support of fi usually in times of distress...but as my boyfriend has said...he feels at times that i'm explaining things in a business proposal way or that i'm scolding him when i do this. that's not meant to mean the same thing. i mean...it can be one or the other.

    but if it's a purely felt and expressed fi type feeling the te isn't needed...it's just flowey...infusing you with my feeling expression...or whatever. that's the natural instinct but when that hits a wall...lil te captain comes in and explains things in a clear decisive way.

    so...same with you? i mean not the same but...your natural expression is that of group harmony. everyone taking care to manage the feeling vibe and when it hits a wall...you ti through it...or you fe/ti through it and if that doesn't work...you mirror back your internal distress through passive aggressive behavior or obvious signs that you're exhausted and feel abandoned to manage it alone?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #66
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I agree with pinkgraffiti. I understand PeaceBaby’s point that not all Fi-users do these things; but there’s definitely a stereotype to the effect that Fi can be moody and a bit self-centered. And as an Fi-user, I tend to think the stereotype has a basis in fact. (It may be a gender thing, by the way. I often see female Fi-users as much more considerate than male Fi-users, to the point where Fi females almost seem to be using Fe.)
    I do agree that there is some basis to the stereotyping, as I do see the patterns, and they make me annoyed with some of my Fi friends for getting stuck in their own worlds!

    Have you ever been in a dynamic where someone is moody (Fi or Fe) and the rest of the Fi people pick up the mood like a bad cold and the Fe people get silent and start cold-shouldering the moody person and getting all righteous about it because they see them as the cause of the problem rather than trying to figure out where the problem really lies? Ya. Instead of trying to solve it everyone gets caught up in it rather than trying to transcend it.

    As a person who is neither Fe or Te dominant, I feel like I can reside outside of each, reaching into them sometimes and creating solutions. This is where irl I do well. I am wired to step in. Moodiness is usually simple to address ... then everything else starts to tuck back in. I just head off those issues at the start usually, before they build, keeping things smooth. I can see that kind of stuff coming miles off for sure.

    So, what bugs me in general about Fe? That people are treated well or poorly depending on where the Fe person has assigned them in their trust circle. Like the tier concept that's being discussed in Z Buck's thread. You can see it in fidelia's responses to each person in the thread and to me. For example, I am in a lower tier with her than some others, I'm not out, but not at the friendly neutral spot either - a bit lower. You can feel it in tone and in comparison to other posts, I am not thanked for my contribution, I am spoken to in a more terse and stern manner and increasingly, I am always mentioned at the outset, like I am receiving a bit of a lecture. (@PB, I this and I that.) You might wonder what I've done to earn this, but basically it boils down to not regularly engaging Fe the way it wishes to be engaged.

    Again, this could very well be enneagram-based social dominance reading these signals.

    And yes, I am using your post to say how I feel indirectly without expressing it in some kind of blame-game way. I find it hurtful but it's been going on for a long time. I try to ignore it but since that doesn't help, why not just talk about it?

    I've had a hypothesis that Ni - Fe is possibly the closest functional combination outside of being an Fi user to 'get' Fi, that the Ni - Fe combo might really be able to stretch and have an 'aha!' moment. But in 4 years of trying I don't see it happening despite better intellectualizing on the issue. I don't always want to abide by an Fe structure, but I respect it. What bugs me is that when I need to venture from that structure to try to explain myself, the Fe structure seeks to realign me for doing so, either by freezing me out or making me fall back in line. Ergo, my structure is not respected in turn.

    I guess that is what it boils down to. I don't often feel that mutual respect. I think for the most part an Fi user simply learns what to do and not do to get along, with Fe and Te. Getting along with Fe, however, feels more trying because the emotional realm is so highly discounted in value by Ni - Fe, yet it is the Fi dom's realm. I didn't realize the full extent of that until the last year probably.

    So, my hypothesis is basically a fail. But, if there are any takeaways, it would be in having some little lists here and there of how to better co-exist.

    Anyways, with that, I really am out of this thread. Maybe feeling some frustration is still a good reason to stay in here, but I've been down this road before. I know where it goes.


    @highlander: for your moodiness -
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #67
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    ughh yes and we both have very intimate experience with that don't we? and i'll tell you...it's not that way with two enfps either from my experience. another main thing is he pretty much hates my te. and i think i hate his too...if that's what it is...haha
    ahahah i hate her lack of te lol

  8. #68
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Also it occurs to me that I could've taken the opportunity to learn how to fe relate with my last post. Or communicate in a fe ish way but I'm still not sure I know how I could've explained that in that way.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #69
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    I think I shall attempt it when I return! Haha
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #70
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    With regard to Peacebaby's comments - I thought I was being courteous by tagging her, as she had said that she was going to leave the thread, and I wanted her to know that I was acknowledging what she said. I also have found in the past that when I am more open, she becomes more prescriptive in expecting me to relate to her in a more Fi way and I am simply unable to do that or at a loss for how to do it. I also tend to tag people to provide clarity for who I am responding to (longer posts usually mean someone is likely to have posted in between so I can't address the person directly) and because I get exceited about a particular point and have to answer it right then and there.

    The tier thing is an involuntary response to not being on the same page as each other, rather than a conscious moving people up or down depending how much I like them. I unconsciously weigh whether the amount of effort spent in communicating is worth the potential fireworks/hurt feelings that could result. In my experience with Peacebaby, I feel that she has great expertise that I don't possess in some areas. However, I've found Fe/Fi discussions with her to invariably end in her feeling that she is being rejected by me. I don't feel that way, and beyond telling her I don't feel that way and saying that if she just gives me the information as she sees it and then enough space to digest it I'll probably come to her with questions or overtures, I don't know what else to do. I feel like I am not being given space by her, so I tend to keep taking backward steps in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again. These backward steps are taken as dislike, rather than I'm holding a gas can and you're holding a torch and if we're both running near each other, they might ignite and inadvertently hurt someone.

    So I felt badly initially, but at some point in time after this has repeatedly happened, I cease to feel as badly because the person in question is repeatedly interacting in a way that I know will only end badly and I don't want to contribute to that. I like PB and it seems like the lesser of two evils for me to just take a slight step back.

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