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  1. #31
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    To speak for myself (and assuming you might want my opinion), I'm guilty of both things you mentioned and in fact I do see them as short-comings, which I'm working on to improve. But in my defense, in the first example the way I see it from an Fi point of view is that authenticity is more important than the well-being of the group. I mean, if I was on your side, I'd rather be sure that everybody is the group is happy and nor repressing feelings, than strive for a "fake" group happiness. I'm not saying this is right, just trying to explain my pov.
    Thank you for explaining that.

    I don't like fakeness either. In fact, if someone else is doing something only reluctantly and for me, it kind of spoils it for me. I think probably what rankles more in the Fe mind is the fairness aspect of it. And maybe I'm even overgeneralizing. Might be me as an so dom or me as a Fe using feeler. But for me, I think back over the times when I have gone out of my way to cheerfully do something that probably wasn't at the top of my list for the other person and I am bothered when it seems like they are willing to accept that, but not reciprocate it themselves. In accepting it, it feels to me like a contract that they will do the same for me, which is then not followed through on. So I guess it has to do with me having expectations that I shouldn't have. If it bothers me that much, I should offer left. However, I want the other person to feel loved and feel good and by doing something like that, it is one way that I see of establishing long term credibility as a friend or family member.

  2. #32
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I was just thinking about Fe need for verbal appreciation. I think for me, the reason why I need it is that I want feedback for what I'm doing that works. I do need to know on some inherent level that I am valued by someone whom I really care about, but it is also about figuring out what to do that makes me need that.

    Fi users, what kinds of Fe expressions of care would you find stifling or frustrating? What do you generally find Fe users do that makes you feel more supported or understood?
    Stifling or frustrating: expressing doubt about or assuming to know the cause or nature of my feelings. Trying too hard to coerce me into doing something (I'm much more responsive when I don't feel manipulated or pressured), being too "pushy" about me using their suggested solution to a problem. I'm fine with suggestions but I hate when I feel like its not ok if I don't use them.

    Supported/understood: Saying they've been there before or saying my feelings are valid. Offering their "take" or point of view on the situation, giving suggestions (the more the better!) without pressure to use them, just hanging out/having fun as a release from whatever I'm stressed out about, talking it out with me without trying to solve it.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Excellent! This is good to know. In past threads, Udog has suggested that explaining what a service the other person is doing simply by listening and asking a few questions is great and also that it is important to thank the person for doing so when they have. (Oh yeah, I think EJCC also said that in relation to her INFJ mother's venting). It does serve a really important purpose. Sometimes I think Fe users forget to do this because they do not feel at all emotionally distressed (or even a need to fix things) when listening to venting. I think the ENFJs have more of a compulsion to offer solutions, but even then, I don't think it is something where they feel obligated to solve the problem for the person because they realize that the person just needs to relieve the pressure they are feeling so they can get down to dealing with the problem. It doesn't feel like emotional pollution, because the Fe venter has indicated that the problem is not with the hearer. I think I've gotten better at picking who to vent to, so that I am not needlessly frustrating both parties, and also better at stating what I am looking for from the other person and recognizing that it might be more taxing than I naturally would have thought of it. In a domestic situation, would you prefer for the person to 1) pick someone else to vent to 2) vent, but state what they need from you and recognize that it involves some sacrifice on your part 3) vent, but be more open to looking at your perspective? To me, venting is also an expression of trust in the other person. I wouldn't tell them about my problem unless I trusted that they would want to know and unless I wanted them to be a part of my inner emotional landscape. Only after repeated misunderstandings and problems between us from me doing so would I quit, but then I would feel like I was walling off a piece of myself from them, which would also cause me some distress.
    Basically, I raised the point just to draw a parallel. If I’ve got a moody INFP on one side of me and a venting INFJ on the other side of me, I feel pretty much the same frustration toward both of them.

    As for solutions, I don’t have any to offer you. We’re just different, and we have to live with the differences.

    As for how I personally handle a venting Fe-user, I take a pretty hard line: When I communicate with someone, I respect the fact that they have their own voice, and I feel obliged to listen to that voice even if I disagree with it. And I expect the same in return: I have my own voice too, and I expect to be allowed to express myself and be heard. We may end up disagreeing, but we should both be allowed to say our piece.

    So in fact if an Fe-user starts venting at me, I’ll almost certainly speak up and give them my opinion. If it freaks them out, then I’ll conclude that they’re not in a position or frame of mind to respect my voice and I’ll politely withdraw from the conversation.

    I don’t really respect the “I’m too stressed to be polite with you” argument. I’m pretty old-school. I tend to think the burden is on people to keep an even keel and hear others out, especially when they initiated the exchange.

    Like I said, I don’t have any solutions to offer here. We’re just different and sometimes communications break down. No hard feelings over it; that’s just the way things are. Like I said in my last post: Male Fi-users can be kind of inconsiderate.

    [Edit:] By the way, I would treat the moody INFP the same; that is, I wouldn't coddle the INFP either.

  4. #34

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    I dislike being laughed at.

  5. #35
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Stifling or frustrating: expressing doubt about or assuming to know the cause or nature of my feelings. Trying too hard to coerce me into doing something (I'm much more responsive when I don't feel manipulated or pressured), being too "pushy" about me using their suggested solution to a problem. I'm fine with suggestions but I hate when I feel like its not ok if I don't use them.

    Supported/understood: Saying they've been there before or saying my feelings are valid. Offering their "take" or point of view on the situation, giving suggestions (the more the better!) without pressure to use them, just hanging out/having fun as a release from whatever I'm stressed out about, talking it out with me without trying to solve it.
    Good stuff!

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Good stuff!
    I thought you were replying to me.

    Oh, I dislike being ignored too.

  7. #37
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @highlander

    I had never thought of crabbiness as a distress signal. I think to me most negative emotions (other than sadness) imply blame of a kind. And if the other person won't say what I can do to fix what I've done wrong (an assumption), then I get impatient and dismissive of them. Throughout my adult life, I've had to work hard to get to the point where I can shrug off other people's negative emotion as sometimes being unrelated to me. Even now, I find silence or withdrawal from other people really disconcerting because when I do that, I am either upset at them, or else it means I am really not okay. When it happens with other people close to me (particularly if they insist they are fine, but show every sign of not being fine), the Ni possibilities in my head run wild. It's terrifying.

    I liked that you included what would be triggers for that kind of mood and what is a helpful response to it.

    Oh! I also thought of another Fe foible of mine
    If I have no accurate information to explain why someone is behaving as they are and they are unwilling or unable to give me more to work with, I sometimes will feel forced to pick a working hypothesis for why, even if it is inaccurate. I try to weigh the information that I have, compare it against past experience with that person and similar situations I can think of with other people, factoring in what is going on now as well. I need to know why because, because depending on the intention, I will act/react very differently and I need something to narrow down the millions of options (Ni thing?).

    I think no one likes their intentions to be misunderstood, but to Fi users it is especially presumptuous because their emotions/intentions are more closely entwined with their identity than with Fe users, so it feels like completely misunderstanding them.

    Another Fe/Fi difference

    Because Fe emotions tend to be more transient and because the user doesn't really identify with them any more than the emotion pointing to something they need to look at, it isn't nearly as offensive to say to a Fe user that they are not reasonable to feel a certain way. (I mean, obviously, it depends on context, but as Fe does mirror things back, the Fe user is more open to considering that their emotion might need tweaking.) In fact, I think that Fe users feel that their emotions, while emerging independently initially, can be shaped or altered, especially with new information or perspective.

    Fi users (I think) see emotion as a part of themselves and as something that can't really be molded or shaped by their own or other's will or by information/perspective. Therefore, suggesting that the Fi user change the outward appearance of their emotion is maybe a form of personal rejection, more than a Fe user would find it to be. In that sense, I think Fe users frequently step on Fi users feelings and invalidate them. Similarly, Fe users often attribute the expression of negative emotion as being selfish or willful because they believe it is very much in the other person's power to alter.

  8. #38
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I thought you were replying to me.

    Oh, I dislike being ignored too.
    Lol! Cut me some slack, wolfy! I can't keep up!

    *points and laughs at wolfy before turning to reply to OTHER people's posts.

  9. #39
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Basically, I raised the point just to draw a parallel. If I’ve got a moody INFP on one side of me and a venting INFJ on the other side of me, I feel pretty much the same frustration toward both of them.

    As for solutions, I don’t have any to offer you. We’re just different, and we have to live with the differences.

    As for how I personally handle a venting Fe-user, I take a pretty hard line: When I communicate with someone, I respect the fact that they have their own voice, and I feel obliged to listen to that voice even if I disagree with it. And I expect the same in return: I have my own voice too, and I expect to be allowed to express myself and be heard. We may end up disagreeing, but we should both be allowed to say our piece.

    So in fact if an Fe-user starts venting at me, I’ll almost certainly speak up and give them my opinion. If it freaks them out, then I’ll conclude that they’re not in a position or frame of mind to respect my voice and I’ll politely withdraw from the conversation.

    I don’t really respect the “I’m too stressed to be polite with you” argument. I’m pretty old-school. I tend to think the burden is on people to keep an even keel and hear others out, especially when they initiated the exchange.

    Like I said, I don’t have any solutions to offer here. We’re just different and sometimes communications break down. No hard feelings over it; that’s just the way things are. Like I said in my last post: Male Fi-users can be kind of inconsiderate.

    [Edit:] By the way, I would treat the moody INFP the same; that is, I wouldn't coddle the INFP either.
    I agree overall. Neither the Fe or the Fi expression is considerate, if indulged in thoroughly.

    I have noticed in myself that I am much more open to hearing the other person out if they've been willing to let me run out of steam before offering the advice. Venting is a distress signal and trying to get work done when someone is in the middle of distress usually makes for bad results. Not that that means I will indiscriminately vent to people, but in close relationships, it avoids misunderstandings if all parties involved get that figured out.

    I'm wondering what the Fi equivalent of letting a person have a little bit of an emotional release without indulging emotionally polluting the whole house would look like.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I agree with pinkgraffiti. I understand PeaceBaby’s point that not all Fi-users do these things; but there’s definitely a stereotype to the effect that Fi can be moody and a bit self-centered. And as an Fi-user, I tend to think the stereotype has a basis in fact. (It may be a gender thing, by the way. I often see female Fi-users as much more considerate than male Fi-users, to the point where Fi females almost seem to be using Fe.)

    But aside from that, I just wanted to jump in and address one point. As a counterpoint to Fi moodiness, I tend to dislike the idea that Fe-users vent about a problem but then get bent out of shape if I try to help them with that same problem. I dislike it for much the same reason that Fe-users dislike Fi moodiness. That is, when the Fe-user vents, they involve the listener in an emotional situation with their venting but then deny the listener a voice or any option for addressing the situation.

    I understand that Fe-users have fairly specific needs in this particular regard. Still, I just want to make the point that I see Fe venting as a form of selfishness or “emotional pollution” pretty much on a par with Fi moodiness. IOW, Fe venting can be hard to swallow for an Fi-user.

    Other than that, I’m generally fine with the way Fe-users communicate. I have some minor pet peeves, but nothing worth raising.
    i'll come back to some of the other points in a min but i'll just say i agree with this. my infp bf can be moody and man does it bug me...i took us out to a really nice dinner one night....i think it was on new years...i wanted to get all dressed up etc but he didn't feel like dressing up and he was moody almost the whole time because it was right after work and he hadn't had any down time. so i had this whole nice thing planned out and h essentially ruined it...ughh yeah bugs me too

    it's funny actually because us fi users annoy each other with some of the same fi stuff you mention. sometimes i need to talk now! and he doesn't...sometimes it's reversed

    also...one of our main relationship issues is communication. and it's a fi/fi thing!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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