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  1. #371
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    To me it looks like your post is just as crazy, I suppose.

    I asked for honest advice about something that has been bothering me - and yes, i let my frustration about this situation bleed through. The perceived expectations part is a fair point, but that perception got there for a reason: I've been slammed my entire life by people coz they felt I owed them an answer. Coz guess what happens when I do not reply? Exaclty, I get 2 more messages, with guilt tripping and 'why don't you like me anymore' and 'it is bad manners not to reply within a proper amount of time!'
    The fact that that proper amount of time is something that seems to vary with each person and is completely arbitrary seems to be an issue only I struggle with somehow, or that is how it gets communicated.

    So someone enlighten me. What is the standard for 'proper amount of time lapsed' at which point you get to demand an answer? Coz people seem to think such a thing exists and have no qualms making that clear to you. And all it does is make me wanna ignore them that much more
    There is no set time per se. I think if you can't answer right away, within 6 hours maybe tell them you got their text but you're busy and will get back when you can. But this certainly doesn't apply to a simple "what's up" text. I don't even answer those! Lol!

    I think you need not care. Don't let your feelings even flinch over this issue. If someone wants to scold you over your manners, I would tell them "thank you for the unsolicited advice". I can think of several other statements but that's the most polite one. If someone says "you don't like me anymore?" Cuz you didn't answer their text. Recommend a therapist. Or a self help book. Or to be polite or compassionate, ask them, "why would you think I don't like you based off of that?"

    I honestly think you are frustrated because of the people texting you.
    Not an Fe specific issue.

    Fi is incredibly compassionate sometimes when Fe is not. And vice versa. This is one of those times when you tune into their emotions. Not yours. Because if you did, you would recognize they're insecure. And it's weighing on you.

    Note: everyone has insecurities. But it's important we take responsibility for our lives. Including the emotional one. So I hope I don't sound terribly cold and misperceived.
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  2. #372
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    To me it looks like your post is just as crazy, I suppose.

    I asked for honest advice about something that has been bothering me - and yes, i let my frustration about this situation bleed through. The perceived expectations part is a fair point, but that perception got there for a reason: I've been slammed my entire life by people coz they felt I owed them an answer. Coz guess what happens when I do not reply? Exaclty, I get 2 more messages, with guilt tripping and 'why don't you like me anymore' and 'it is bad manners not to reply within a proper amount of time!'
    The fact that that proper amount of time is something that seems to vary with each person and is completely arbitrary seems to be an issue only I struggle with somehow, or that is how it gets communicated.

    So someone enlighten me. What is the standard for 'proper amount of time lapsed' at which point you get to demand an answer? Coz people seem to think such a thing exists and have no qualms making that clear to you. And all it does is make me wanna ignore them that much more
    It's organic, and depends on the existing relationship, desired relationship, trend in the existing relationship;
    whether the question is out of the blue or related to an existing topic; prior commitment to the other person;
    and urgency of the question vs. whininess / selfishness of the asker.

    Think of a handshake. What are the rules for how firm/soft; how long lasting; whether you grasp their elbow
    in your other hand; number of shakes up and down; open like "lay some skin on me" or closed; who initiates,
    how close to whose body? *It all depends*.

    Fi users tend to need their space and time and energy; but they are so giving they end up draining themselves and then
    going into disappearing mode or "just bite me everyone mode" which wouldn't be so bad if they had guided expectations
    towards normal boundaries in the beginning...but the sudden change from "I'm a helpful puppy" to *SILENCE* is what disconcerts people; they can't help but take it personally.

    This is where the INTJ death stare comes in handy -- people don't dare ask; and when you *do* deign to answer in a
    timely and complete fashion, they are grateful.



    And you can't even pretend that INTJs don't love them some recharge time.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  3. #373
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    There is no set time per se. I think if you can't answer right away, within 6 hours maybe tell them you got their text but you're busy and will get back when you can. But this certainly doesn't apply to a simple "what's up" text. I don't even answer those! Lol!

    I think you need not care. Don't let your feelings even flinch over this issue. If someone wants to scold you over your manners, I would tell them "thank you for the unsolicited advice". I can think of several other statements but that's the most polite one. If someone says "you don't like me anymore?" Cuz you didn't answer their text. Recommend a therapist. Or a self help book. Or to be polite or compassionate, ask them, "why would you think I don't like you based off of that?"

    I honestly think you are frustrated because of the people texting you.
    Not an Fe specific issue.

    Fi is incredibly compassionate sometimes when Fe is not. And vice versa. This is one of those times when you tune into their emotions. Not yours. Because if you did, you would recognize they're insecure. And it's weighing on you.

    Note: everyone has insecurities. But it's important we take responsibility for our lives. Including the emotional one. So I hope I don't sound terribly cold and misperceived.



    What if i were to tell you that I often don't check in with people for the better part of a week? Coz *that* is what I do when I cocoon. Ive told this repeatedly to people and they are finally coming to terms with it.

    But your 6 hours? That is incredibly stressful for me. Thats what I mean with 'someone tell me the standard that works for everyone, coz I sure don't know where to find it'
    I live in...another world, shall we say? Which means that my mindset is rarely naturally in tune, the way Fe-users seem to be, with the people around me. I need to consciously do that, and it actually costs me a lot of energy. When I do connect, I go all out, which of course means that Im depleted before I know it as well.

    Fe-users seem to do moderation and frequency. For me, I very much am about abundance and in need of recharging after.

    So your 6 hours? They are like a prison to me. They are like a ticking count down of doom, because I cannot retreat to my world the way I want to. Time doesn't work that way there and I stay up there for days at times. 3 days is my natural response time - if Im not stressed.

    So, understand me when I say - I understand their frustration. I understand they don't work like that. And I understand that the world doesn't have time to wait for me. But how is it that they don't have to be understanding of my rhythm - and how do we find a practical common ground?

    Right now, I make it very clear to anyone who communicates with me that this is normal for me, that it doesn't personally reflect on them. Yet it still sets off all kinds of insecurities, resentment and judgement. And it makes me just wanna stop talking to people coz honestly, who needs that kind of hassle? At the same time, I love these people, they are my friends, my family and I want to have a bond with them - I just am not capable of doing it in the time frame they expect.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #374
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    It's organic, and depends on the existing relationship, desired relationship, trend in the existing relationship;
    whether the question is out of the blue or related to an existing topic; prior commitment to the other person;
    and urgency of the question vs. whininess / selfishness of the asker.

    Think of a handshake. What are the rules for how firm/soft; how long lasting; whether you grasp their elbow
    in your other hand; number of shakes up and down; open like "lay some skin on me" or closed; who initiates,
    how close to whose body? *It all depends*.

    Fi users tend to need their space and time and energy; but they are so giving they end up draining themselves and then
    going into disappearing mode or "just bite me everyone mode" which wouldn't be so bad if they had guided expectations
    towards normal boundaries in the beginning...but the sudden change from "I'm a helpful puppy" to *SILENCE* is what disconcerts people; they can't help but take it personally.

    This is where the INTJ death stare comes in handy -- people don't dare ask; and when you *do* deign to answer in a
    timely and complete fashion, they are grateful.



    And you can't even pretend that INTJs don't love them some recharge time.
    So what you're saying is I'm once again a free candy dispenser machine that people get pissed at when its empty. Lovely *sigh*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #375
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So what you're saying is I'm once again a free candy dispenser machine that people get pissed at when its empty. Lovely *sigh*
    @Amargith --

    Good heavens, no, No, NO, NO, NO, Mr. Baggins!
    That as a type 4 xNFP is your besetting tragic *flaw* -- it is not your fate, it is not inevitable!

    I was merely attempting to do my level best at showing concern by echoing back / paraphrasing what I heard your complaint to be!

    My real answer to you was contained in the *first* two paragraphs ; I am very sorry that I failed to communicate either the
    fact of my good intentions, and further that I failed to transfer the *CONTENTS* of those good intentions.

    Let me repackage the first two paragraphs another way, taken from the immature INTJ lament; but as you will see, it has
    applicability to the xNFP type 4 as well, if you tilt your head to one side like a puppy when reading it.

    When I was but a young dragon, I would *attempt* to socialize by standing on the fringes of a group, making diligent
    eye contact with everyone else's shoes. Occasionally, the conversation would waft within reach of something I knew
    something about : and I would light up and talk at 90 miles a minute, in FAR too much detail, and await the adulation
    and popularity I knew I deserved.

    (crickets)

    (followed by edging away, if not outright fleeing, and days of dirty looks directed at me when people even deigned to
    *allow* eye contact).

    Now, the most obvious thing is that I talked too much, too deep, about stuff nobody else cared about; without a segue;
    and without any warning that I was going to go from deep funk to Mr. Excited.

    But there are scads of other social rules involved: the conversation's flow, what the conversation's *unstated* purpose is
    (bull session, wasting time, checking up on specific friends, talking about last night's big game, gossiping, planning what
    to do to put Susie in her place, etc.) Not to mention the pre-existing relationships and how the participants feel about
    each other, and all the individual and collective cross-currents.

    I was aware of, I allowed for, *none* of these. I'm an INTJ -- here's what *I* find interesting...!

    Now in a similar (but photographic negative type of way), the INFP is unaware of social rules: but unlike the INTJ
    who barges in to mouth OFF, the INFP is unaware of when *they're* allowed to preserve silence, keep to themselves,
    or not HAVE TO answer).
    With the result that they rush around completely exsanguinating themselves and draining themselves of ALL
    their precious life force, because someone three levels out in their social circle *might* get a little inconvenienced
    if the INFP waited a day to answer.
    And that would be...*sniff*...JUST. TERRIBLE.

    The net results is, just as the INTJ is shunned, the xNFP becomes the free candy dispenser.
    There's nothing wrong with dispensing candy -- unless you want to give out broccoli smoothies cause they're healthier.
    But it *is* good to make sure your machine gets re-stocked regularly; and that you wait until people actually
    put in, like, you know, *coins* and all before you give them any candy in return.

    Bonus advanced level: learn to insist on exact change, too. And don't be afraid to tell them when their selection is sold out.

    Best wishes.

    (I hope that helps...honestly, I'm trying to get this right. You deserve praise & a transfer of emotional energy for being such
    a considerate soul!)

    Praise from an INTJ armoured unit.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  6. #376
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    What if i were to tell you that I often don't check in with people for the better part of a week? Coz *that* is what I do when I cocoon. Ive told this repeatedly to people and they are finally coming to terms with it.

    But your 6 hours? That is incredibly stressful for me. Thats what I mean with 'someone tell me the standard that works for everyone, coz I sure don't know where to find it'
    I live in...another world, shall we say? Which means that my mindset is rarely naturally in tune, the way Fe-users seem to be, with the people around me. I need to consciously do that, and it actually costs me a lot of energy. When I do connect, I go all out, which of course means that Im depleted before I know it as well.

    Fe-users seem to do moderation and frequency. For me, I very much am about abundance and in need of recharging after.

    So your 6 hours? They are like a prison to me. They are like a ticking count down of doom, because I cannot retreat to my world the way I want to. Time doesn't work that way there and I stay up there for days at times. 3 days is my natural response time - if Im not stressed.

    So, understand me when I say - I understand their frustration. I understand they don't work like that. And I understand that the world doesn't have time to wait for me. But how is it that they don't have to be understanding of my rhythm - and how do we find a practical common ground?

    Right now, I make it very clear to anyone who communicates with me that this is normal for me, that it doesn't personally reflect on them. Yet it still sets off all kinds of insecurities, resentment and judgement. And it makes me just wanna stop talking to people coz honestly, who needs that kind of hassle? At the same time, I love these people, they are my friends, my family and I want to have a bond with them - I just am not capable of doing it in the time frame they expect.
    @Amargith --

    Hooray for chrysalis mode!
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  7. #377
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    What if i were to tell you that I often don't check in with people for the better part of a week? Coz *that* is what I do when I cocoon. Ive told this repeatedly to people and they are finally coming to terms with it.

    But your 6 hours? That is incredibly stressful for me. Thats what I mean with 'someone tell me the standard that works for everyone, coz I sure don't know where to find it'
    I live in...another world, shall we say? Which means that my mindset is rarely naturally in tune, the way Fe-users seem to be, with the people around me. I need to consciously do that, and it actually costs me a lot of energy. When I do connect, I go all out, which of course means that Im depleted before I know it as well.

    Fe-users seem to do moderation and frequency. For me, I very much am about abundance and in need of recharging after.

    So your 6 hours? They are like a prison to me. They are like a ticking count down of doom, because I cannot retreat to my world the way I want to. Time doesn't work that way there and I stay up there for days at times. 3 days is my natural response time - if Im not stressed.

    So, understand me when I say - I understand their frustration. I understand they don't work like that. And I understand that the world doesn't have time to wait for me. But how is it that they don't have to be understanding of my rhythm - and how do we find a practical common ground?

    Right now, I make it very clear to anyone who communicates with me that this is normal for me, that it doesn't personally reflect on them. Yet it still sets off all kinds of insecurities, resentment and judgement. And it makes me just wanna stop talking to people coz honestly, who needs that kind of hassle? At the same time, I love these people, they are my friends, my family and I want to have a bond with them - I just am not capable of doing it in the time frame they expect.
    I still think you're coming across as an introvert and struggling with extroverts. Only as an Fe user I will push myself to exhaustion because I'm aware of other people's feelings before my own. This of course isn't so much the case as an adult. I think 6 hours or within 24 hours. It all depends though on who. I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to conform to you. Likewise, it's unreasonable not to express your frustration. Taking a narcissistic stand screams self esteem issues.

    If people are overwhelming you be honest, tell them it's a stressful time or want not and you'll get back to them when you're in better spirits. I completely understand how frustrating it is maintaining privacy and space. But it was important to confront needs and feelings I didn't want to because the fact is, if your aren't respecting others time and energy with relation to you, it's nothing but unresolved issues you should probably address. This is what normal healthy people do. They check their shit every few years.

    Yeah, as an introvert, it blows not being able to have space. But, it also would be embarrassing if I chose to delude myself .. ever read emperors new clothes??? It's a balance. You want your time, space and your needs respected. But likewise. You need to recognize others have these same needs. So, to pretend would be to walk about naked. To be angry would be childish. It's good to recognize the feeling of anger and express it too the people if it's a common practice that boundaries need to be set. But, really..It's good to realize everything within reason. If your feelings aren't proportionate to the case at hand (which it seems like) then you might be just distracting yourself from an issue that is overwhelming you that you're ignoring.

    The mind works in mysterious ways

    Take it easy on yourself. And likewise, try not to be too hard on those who care for you. You deserve people who care for you. Don't let your mind push them away because you're not dealing with things. You can slack. Just don't wait till you're sorry is all I'm sayin.
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  8. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So, understand me when I say - I understand their frustration. I understand they don't work like that. And I understand that the world doesn't have time to wait for me. But how is it that they don't have to be understanding of my rhythm - and how do we find a practical common ground?

    Right now, I make it very clear to anyone who communicates with me that this is normal for me, that it doesn't personally reflect on them. Yet it still sets off all kinds of insecurities, resentment and judgement. And it makes me just wanna stop talking to people coz honestly, who needs that kind of hassle? At the same time, I love these people, they are my friends, my family and I want to have a bond with them - I just am not capable of doing it in the time frame they expect.
    I don't know what you mean by "Fe-users" but speaking as a strong introvert with Fe-aux, this sounds to me like maybe you're dealing with extroverts who can't seem to accept that you're an introvert. As for me, all I would need from you would be the information that this is normal for you, and I'd adjust my interactions and understanding of your communication accordingly (meaning, knowing that's your rhythm, I would know that's normal for you and accept that. And if I were in a situation where I needed quicker feedback, I'd not expect you to provide it, I'd connect with someone else for that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I've been slammed my entire life by people coz they felt I owed them an answer. Coz guess what happens when I do not reply to certain people? Exaclty, I get 2 more messages, with guilt tripping and 'why don't you like me anymore' and 'it is bad manners not to reply within a proper amount of time!'
    The fact that that proper amount of time is something that seems to vary with each person and is completely arbitrary seems to be an issue only I struggle with somehow, or that is how it gets communicated.
    As long as you're communicating clearly what it does and doesn't mean when you don't immediately reply ....

    The guilt tripping and "why don't you like me anymore" and telling you it's bad manners not to reply on their timeline - that sounds just terrible, not to mention individualistic and self-centered to me. Why do they expect you to adapt to them but at the same time they aren't also willing to adapt to you as well to find that common ground? Seems to me that Fe would be oriented to that mutual adaptation (though of course I'm not a Fe-dom).

    Seriously, could this be an introvert/extrovert thing? If not, maybe it's some non-MBTI related dysfunction in the people you're connected with? Like ... why can't they hear what you're telling them about your approach to communicaton?

  9. #379
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "Fe-users" but speaking as a strong introvert with Fe-aux, this sounds to me like maybe you're dealing with extroverts who can't seem to accept that you're an introvert. As for me, all I would need from you would be the information that this is normal for you, and I'd adjust my interactions and understanding of your communication accordingly (meaning, knowing that's your rhythm, I would know that's normal for you and accept that. And if I were in a situation where I needed quicker feedback, I'd not expect you to provide it, I'd connect with someone else for that).



    As long as you're communicating clearly what it does and doesn't mean when you don't immediately reply ....

    The guilt tripping and "why don't you like me anymore" and telling you it's bad manners not to reply on their timeline - that sounds just terrible, not to mention individualistic and self-centered to me. Why do they expect you to adapt to them but at the same time they aren't also willing to adapt to you as well to find that common ground? Seems to me that Fe would be oriented to that mutual adaptation (though of course I'm not a Fe-dom).

    Seriously, could this be an introvert/extrovert thing? If not, maybe it's some non-MBTI related dysfunction in the people you're connected with? Like ... why can't they hear what you're telling them about your approach to communicaton?
    @Werebudgie

    Let me chime in here...it often seems to me that INFPs (whether E4 or E9) tend to be more passive, (in some ways) to have lower self-esteem: some E9s like to merge with another, and lose themselves, some E4s like to play "I *am* tragedy and nobody wants me."

    With the results that INFPs often SERIOUSLY underestimate just how loved they are, and how much continuing contact with them is desired.
    Other types smile and make eye contact while passing in the coffee room or the hallway at work, or send funny LOLcats on email, or whatever, and acknowledge such.
    But often as not, an INFP sees the receipt of such as a DEMAND, rather than an affirmation: "I regard you so much I am sending you something lighthearted."
    And since most non-INFPs don't get drained, but send a smiley or a 1-sentence approval back, the other person feels that their affection or friendship has been reciprocated.
    But the INFP...gets pained, and goes to radio silence.
    Coming from any other types, radio silence either means, "I'm busy, kindly flockoff" or "I hate you, kindly flockoff".
    But somehow the INFP often expects the other person to know and sense and read the cascade of poignant sweet pain knocked loose in the INFP's soul by the email and
    by all the random associations it brings up, and to *feel* the vibes of "Wow, they *thought* of me" that the INFP reverberates with as though a struck bell.
    Unfortunately, unless the person sending the email is another intuitive, and one whose radar is *tuned* to the INFP broadcasts, these messages will never be picked up.
    And the other person might even feel (mistakenly) a little chill in the air, and decide to withdraw from the INFP, not knowing the proper time and measure to offer support
    and comfort and companionship : the miscommunication goes both ways!

    One possible compromise, as I have suggested elsewhere to an INFP I know, is, if you see a touching email, or you suddenly realize you haven't said ANYTHING to the
    person you actually are friends with, for a week or more, just drop a single line "Still outside of my own head to recharge. The unicorns are really pretty, though"
    so the other person realizes that they still exist to you...

    Best wishes.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @Werebudgie

    Your INFP description is unrecognizable to me in relation to what I know of my INFP E9 partner, but I assume actual INFPs might have a better grip on its accuracy than I would.

    eta1: I also don't see the connection between the description and what @Amargith is describing of people getting all upset at the lack of a quick response. The way I see it, if radio silence for a period of time is in fact normal for someone and if that person clearly communicates this fact to others, then why is there a problem with the lack of immediate reply? For me, with clear communication about that being normal, I would just code it as "Amargith just doesn't reply right away, no need to be concerned" and use that information to not expect quick replies from this particular person, and to understand that a lack of a quick reply doesn't mean something is wrong.

    eta2: I'm thinking that there are also people who may need quick verbal reassurances in order to feel loved/cared about/etc. I'd guess that people who really need this wouldn't be a good fit for a personal connection with someone who doesn't do quick responses like that. For me, this becomes more relevant in a romantic/intimate relationship or a really close friendship. Sometimes there just isn't a fit between specific people's needs and what others can do. No one's right or wrong in that case, it's just not a good fit. There may also be work situations in which quick acknowledgement of communication is necessary for professional reasons, but I'm not sure that's relevant to the topic at hand.

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