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  1. #341
    Member empertet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    How do you politely tell an Fe user that you're not in the mood to talk when they try and engage you? As much as it pains me to say this, my ISFJ mother loves to small talk with me and verbalize things, and while I understand her need for it and try my best to be receptive, I'm not always in the mood for it, and whenever I tell her this or give her a short response, she reacts by thinking I'm being intentionally spiteful towards her. Although it isn't that bad, it makes me feel terrible sometimes, and I wish I could find some way for me to communicate with her better when this type of situation arises....I can't really mirror her Fe consistently, and the fact that I'm generally inarticulate doesn't help either.
    You have to first establish that it's not her but you (gotta love an awkwardly applied Cliché!), tell her your brain feels frazzled and that you can't handle talking right now and you'd really appreciate the privacy. Maybe add something about "being back to normal soon", Follow this with a hug to symbolise unspoken connection and go on your way. F's can be reasonable, you just have to assure us we've done nothing to upset you and then tell us what we can do that will make you feel better (even if it's nothing at all).



    ---------------------
    (new post, but I don't want to clog the thread.)

    Also, on a personal note I find these simple rules (in order) help people communicate with me:
    1. Don't criticise or be condescending to me, my opinions or my beliefs (Trust me on this, it's a minefield).
    2. If your criticism is quickly followed by an attempt to backtrack I'll know you didn't mean it the way you said it. Build it to be constructive rather than detrimental and I'll appreciate it as concern rather than malice.
    3. Don't butter me up before hand. I'll read you like a book and redirect the conversation so fast you'll forget what you came to me for in the first place.
    4. Give me time to process the information, don't pester me for an out come, I need to reach consensus with my other selves. Expect me not to talk with you for a few days (not out of anger, I view you as a symbol of the conversation and I feel pressured when I see you before I have a resolve).
    Last edited by empertet; 01-13-2014 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Avoiding multi-posts.
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    How do you politely tell an Fe user that you're not in the mood to talk when they try and engage you? As much as it pains me to say this, my ISFJ mother loves to small talk with me and verbalize things, and while I understand her need for it and try my best to be receptive, I'm not always in the mood for it, and whenever I tell her this or give her a short response, she reacts by thinking I'm being intentionally spiteful towards her. Although it isn't that bad, it makes me feel terrible sometimes, and I wish I could find some way for me to communicate with her better when this type of situation arises....I can't really mirror her Fe consistently, and the fact that I'm generally inarticulate doesn't help either.
    Uhh you're just really unlucky with her then. I know an ESFJ who doesn't mind at all if I tell her "not now". Even if I do it rudely :/ Yea she's family too. But she forgets everything rude and crazy pretty fast, really forgiving in this way. Stereotypical ISFJs aren't like that, I guess?

    I think what could work, is you telling her you got a task to do... say if you're reading a book, say it's for college if you go to college. Etc.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by empertet View Post
    You have to first establish that it's not her but you (gotta love an awkwardly applied Cliché!), tell her your brain feels frazzled and that you can't handle talking right now and you'd really appreciate the privacy. Maybe add something about "being back to normal soon", Follow this with a hug to symbolise unspoken connection and go on your way. F's can be reasonable, you just have to assure us we've done nothing to upset you and then tell us what we can do that will make you feel better (even if it's nothing at all).
    Ah well yes your solution might work a lot better than what I said, if he's able to act this nice polite. For me personally it kind of works better if I know the person's got something else to do. Not that I want to take away anyone's privacy


    Also, on a personal note I find these simple rules (in order) help people communicate with me:
    Nice.


    1. Don't criticise or be condescending to me, my opinions or my beliefs (Trust me on this, it's a minefield).
    The problem is... What is condescending is so subjectively interpreted.


    I'll read you like a book
    Lol really
    The confidence with which you said this... ;p


    4. Give me time to process the information, don't pester me for an out come, I need to reach consensus with my other selves. Expect me not to talk with you for a few days (not out of anger, I view you as a symbol of the conversation and I feel pressured when I see you before I have a resolve).
    Symbol of conversation, interesting way to put it. (This isn't criticism)

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Ah well yes your solution might work a lot better than what I said, if he's able to act this nice polite. For me personally it kind of works better if I know the person's got something else to do. Not that I want to take away anyone's privacy
    When I have a "feel" (read: have conversed with regularly) for someone, if they act "rude" by saying "not now" I'd just be like "okay then." I'll later enquire in a sincere manner if I did something wrong, if I haven't I'll note it down in my head and not judge your "brashness" from then on as I assume it's just how you operate.

    Nice.
    I mean as a F type, I don't just assume random people over the internet have any beef with me. I have a rule about media like this: if I can't hear tone of voice, I'll just assume you mean something in the nicest possible way (I just withhold my N and J functions).




    The problem is... What is condescending is so subjectively interpreted.
    True. However condescension requires the speaker to give off an air of "I'm smarter than you". People do this to me a lot. I think in pictures and symbols so my speech is broken in conversation (unless I know the subject matter, then I speak quite eloquently because I formed my opinions and theories ahead of time and bottle it up until it's raised.) They assume my poor "small talk" is the result of stupidity. My tested IQ says otherwise so I don't take insults about the one thing I have pride in.


    Lol really
    The confidence with which you said this... ;p
    It's not confidence when it's fact
    But in all seriousness there are huge signals to being buttered up. The first one is a compliment. No one compliments me because I don't give them anything to compliment me about. (At least I try not to) the second is quickened pulse and the third is a high-pitch in the voice.



    Symbol of conversation, interesting way to put it. (This isn't criticism)
    Thanks I do so enjoy sounding weird :P
    I offer understanding, help and basic human decency, in exchange all I ask is to be accepted.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by empertet View Post
    When I have a "feel" (read: have conversed with regularly) for someone, if they act "rude" by saying "not now" I'd just be like "okay then." I'll later enquire in a sincere manner if I did something wrong, if I haven't I'll note it down in my head and not judge your "brashness" from then on as I assume it's just how you operate.
    Ah, yeah, that makes sense, maybe my ESFJ just knows me well.


    I mean as a F type, I don't just assume random people over the internet have any beef with me. I have a rule about media like this: if I can't hear tone of voice, I'll just assume you mean something in the nicest possible way (I just withhold my N and J functions).
    I see


    True. However condescension requires the speaker to give off an air of "I'm smarter than you". People do this to me a lot. I think in pictures and symbols so my speech is broken in conversation (unless I know the subject matter, then I speak quite eloquently because I formed my opinions and theories ahead of time and bottle it up until it's raised.) They assume my poor "small talk" is the result of stupidity. My tested IQ says otherwise so I don't take insults about the one thing I have pride in.
    I still think feeling this air thingie of "smarter than you" is extremely subjective.

    Interesting what you say about thinking in pictures, symbols etc. I actually don't even code my real thoughts that much, sometimes the logic gets put in a visual way. So I understand you on the issue of having broken speech IRL. But I haven't noticed that this would have any connection to being seen as stupid.


    It's not confidence when it's fact
    But in all seriousness there are huge signals to being buttered up. The first one is a compliment. No one compliments me because I don't give them anything to compliment me about. (At least I try not to) the second is quickened pulse and the third is a high-pitch in the voice.
    Oh in a narrow context like buttering up, it makes sense.


    Thanks I do so enjoy sounding weird :P
    Eheheh :p

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I still think feeling this air thingie of "smarter than you" is extremely subjective.
    It's not what is said but how it's said: Are they "babying" their words? "Do you understand?" "DOOO YOOOU UN-DER-STAND?"
    Are their lips pursed like they have a bad taste in their mouth? Is the head tilted down or are they making a slow nod gesture?
    I'm very good at analysing people (In person), so if they're being condescending I call them on it. For some reason they think they're being subtle, then again I guess they can't see their own face contorting.

    Interesting what you say about thinking in pictures, symbols etc. I actually don't even code my real thoughts that much, sometimes the logic gets put in a visual way. So I understand you on the issue of having broken speech IRL. But I haven't noticed that this would have any connection to being seen as stupid.
    I come across as stupid by choice most of the time because I don't want to be intimidating when someone doesn't know me very well. However to cope with work my brain sort of segregates my real self into a fraction of the person I am. (autopilot) All the conversations I have take on a dream-like quality and I just kind of... watch. My responses are slow and semi-nonsensical if you look into my speech. Very few people notice so I can stay safe in my own head until I'm finished.
    I offer understanding, help and basic human decency, in exchange all I ask is to be accepted.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    How do you politely tell an Fe user that you're not in the mood to talk when they try and engage you? As much as it pains me to say this, my ISFJ mother loves to small talk with me and verbalize things, and while I understand her need for it and try my best to be receptive, I'm not always in the mood for it, and whenever I tell her this or give her a short response, she reacts by thinking I'm being intentionally spiteful towards her. Although it isn't that bad, it makes me feel terrible sometimes, and I wish I could find some way for me to communicate with her better when this type of situation arises....I can't really mirror her Fe consistently, and the fact that I'm generally inarticulate doesn't help either.
    Well, with my ISFJ, he differentiates between when he needs to get emotional things off his chest (which is not often), versus just daily talk. With daily talk, it's fine to postpone it, but with the heavy things, he feels like since he listens to my heavy things all the time, I should try to make time to listen to him. And I think that is perfectly fair and a good exercise in altruism for me. He does not do so much small talk, but sometimes he does get on tangents and it's hard to stay with him for that long. But the longer I'm with him the more I try for his sake. I figure he really does a lot for me and this is something that I can willingly endure for him at least some of the time.

    I think try to weigh how much you can tolerate at the moment, and try to push yourself for the sake of the other - that's kind of the idea of Fe. She's your mom and has probably done a lot for you, can you give her just 10 minutes to talk? My ISFJ will say that I don't have to even internalize it that well, just be there for him and do my best to be supportive. You can tell her that you are tired but you'd like to do your best to listen to her so please bear with you, or something similar. As far as I understand it's really about the gesture of being there for the other and reaching out of yourself to support them. I think as FPs sometimes we can overestimate our need to stay in our internal emotional state - after a while of practicing getting out of it regularly to reach out to my ISFJ, I can definitely say it's not as painful or taxing as I thought it was. At the very least, let her know that you would really like to talk with her but are feeling a bit muddy at the moment and reschedule - ask if you can talk after you shower or over dinner instead. Sometimes doing something physical while talking can be good, too - taking a walk or cooking or eating - it helps give a buffer from the conversation and gives you something to engage over that is less emotionally demanding.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by empertet View Post
    It's not what is said but how it's said: Are they "babying" their words? "Do you understand?" "DOOO YOOOU UN-DER-STAND?"
    Are their lips pursed like they have a bad taste in their mouth? Is the head tilted down or are they making a slow nod gesture?
    I'm very good at analysing people (In person), so if they're being condescending I call them on it. For some reason they think they're being subtle, then again I guess they can't see their own face contorting.
    My question is, how did you determine that e.g. pursed lips mean a condescending attitude/intention?

    Maybe a strange question but this is what comes to my mind reading this.

    I have an alternative interpretation: person might just be impatient. For example.

    Meaning of condescending attitude to me involves explicit intention to belittle and perhaps even humiliate the other person.


    I come across as stupid by choice most of the time because I don't want to be intimidating when someone doesn't know me very well. However to cope with work my brain sort of segregates my real self into a fraction of the person I am. (autopilot) All the conversations I have take on a dream-like quality and I just kind of... watch. My responses are slow and semi-nonsensical if you look into my speech. Very few people notice so I can stay safe in my own head until I'm finished.
    Well... I think I would be one of the few people to notice ;P Because I actually care to hear and understand what the other person says, I mean, if someone says something I don't let it just go past my ears. So I would notice if you said some nonsensical BS to look like you're paying attention (Maybe I misunderstand this and you don't mean that you're just letting others talk while you're paying attention to your internal world instead)

    Also, why disguise yourself? If someone gets intimidated, that's their problem. Deal with it somehow. (I mean, the person who gets intimidated, should deal with it somehow.. don't just run away!)

  9. #349
    Member empertet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    My question is, how did you determine that e.g. pursed lips mean a condescending attitude/intention?

    Maybe a strange question but this is what comes to my mind reading this.

    I have an alternative interpretation: person might just be impatient. For example.

    Meaning of condescending attitude to me involves explicit intention to belittle and perhaps even humiliate the other person.
    I see your point, however I find people who are impatient are impatient on a regular basis, making it easier to identify a difference (If I don't know someone enough I won't call them on it, after all I can just pretend they don't exist if I have no "relationship" with said person.), Condensation is usually very rare and very obvious, it also usually comes with either a sarcastic or clipped comment about your level of intelligence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rude if I call it out- I just state it and walk away. 90% of people apologise. The other 10% become submissive.
    Though I admit that impatience has a tendency to manifest in various forms and emotions, most people (myself included) don't like to think they have a dislike of waiting (after all, it's hardly flattering and we all know that being impatient often has a negative result) so we hide it under the guise of something else, usually curiosity "How long do you think it might take?".
    There is room for error though, you're right.


    Well... I think I would be one of the few people to notice ;P Because I actually care to hear and understand what the other person says, I mean, if someone says something I don't let it just go past my ears. So I would notice if you said some nonsensical BS to look like you're paying attention (Maybe I misunderstand this and you don't mean that you're just letting others talk while you're paying attention to your internal world instead)
    I do pay attention, however I'm constantly feeling the pull from my internal world these days, I won't lie, I can feel it rotting inside me because I haven't "recharged" properly in the past two years (I talk to hundreds of people at work and I have no feeling of privacy at home), so I'm getting socially and emotionally slower. The thing that's suffered most however is speech, When I open my mouth it's like a fog comes over my thoughts making me forget what I intended to say. So I panic and substitute it with parroting people and changing the sentence slightly. Apparently it works, however I must admit it makes me feel fake, dirty and nasty.
    I try to pay attention to those close to me but it's getting harder, I don't know if it's a defence mechanism or what, but my brain won't "latch-on" to conversations properly, I think it irritates me more than them though... for now at least.

    Also, why disguise yourself? If someone gets intimidated, that's their problem. Deal with it somehow. (I mean, the person who gets intimidated, should deal with it somehow.. don't just run away!)
    If they express a genuine interest in me I start to come out of my shell a little, however it's a long process. Also, the "brain fog" tends to drop mid-sentence now-a-days, resulting in me not just forgetting what I was saying, but often the whole conversation too. It makes me embarrassed so I just don't open up any more really.
    And besides, making other people uncomfortable makes me hate myself so I'd rather be seen as an idiot than not liked by a stranger. I literally can't put myself first unless I think someone is a terrible human being, which is very few people. Fortunately
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  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by empertet View Post
    I see your point, however I find people who are impatient are impatient on a regular basis, making it easier to identify a difference (If I don't know someone enough I won't call them on it, after all I can just pretend they don't exist if I have no "relationship" with said person.), Condensation is usually very rare and very obvious, it also usually comes with either a sarcastic or clipped comment about your level of intelligence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rude if I call it out- I just state it and walk away. 90% of people apologise. The other 10% become submissive.
    Though I admit that impatience has a tendency to manifest in various forms and emotions, most people (myself included) don't like to think they have a dislike of waiting (after all, it's hardly flattering and we all know that being impatient often has a negative result) so we hide it under the guise of something else, usually curiosity "How long do you think it might take?".
    There is room for error though, you're right.
    Ahh okay, that makes more sense now :p It's funny what you say about their reactions

    I agree btw, if they explicitly call you an idiot or just sarcastically hint at it, then yeah no question of it being a condescending attitude....

    I only met one person who had the tendency to do that to me. I either shouted back at them about how I'm not tolerating that sort of thing or if the situation was such, I - somewhat angrily but still mostly calmly - explain to them that they failed to see the entire situation expecting me to have information which I could not possibly have. I did tend to get my point across & into the person's head.

    I guess the walking away can be pretty effective, I'm just not that sort of person

    Yes I'm impatient and I freely admit it, I guess I'm the exception with that hahah


    I do pay attention, however I'm constantly feeling the pull from my internal world these days, I won't lie, I can feel it rotting inside me because I haven't "recharged" properly in the past two years (I talk to hundreds of people at work and I have no feeling of privacy at home), so I'm getting socially and emotionally slower. The thing that's suffered most however is speech, When I open my mouth it's like a fog comes over my thoughts making me forget what I intended to say. So I panic and substitute it with parroting people and changing the sentence slightly. Apparently it works, however I must admit it makes me feel fake, dirty and nasty.
    I try to pay attention to those close to me but it's getting harder, I don't know if it's a defence mechanism or what, but my brain won't "latch-on" to conversations properly, I think it irritates me more than them though... for now at least.
    That sounds really bad. Can you not set aside some "me-time" for yourself???


    If they express a genuine interest in me I start to come out of my shell a little, however it's a long process. Also, the "brain fog" tends to drop mid-sentence now-a-days, resulting in me not just forgetting what I was saying, but often the whole conversation too. It makes me embarrassed so I just don't open up any more really.
    And besides, making other people uncomfortable makes me hate myself so I'd rather be seen as an idiot than not liked by a stranger. I literally can't put myself first unless I think someone is a terrible human being, which is very few people. Fortunately
    First, the same thing I said above

    As for not being liked by a stranger, interesting attitude. That along with the thing about not being able to put yourself first, I saw your enneagram thread, maybe you're an introverted type 2.

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