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  1. #331
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That's another thing that might be Fe vs. Fi. I'll be complaining about someone else's behavior, and then someone else will try and explain it to me, and say things like "Oh, he's under a lot of stress, you have to see it from his point of view." Fine. Sure, whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying as hell.

    And then, a few days or weeks later, the Fi person will complain about the same thing I was complaining about. This kind of thing annoys me to no end, because I feel like they just ignored me. And what's worse, now they want me to have some kind of appropriate reaction to their dissatisfaction, but the only thing I feel is annoyance at them for brushing off the exact same complaint when I made it.

    I guess they don't like to come to conclusions on those things so quickly, though.
    It's not clear to me if that is a Fi or Fe issue because that inconsistency could be explained either way. Maybe they expect the other person to be in the role of questioning the assumption? Or maybe it's just a person with a strong personal perspective. There is an inconsistency regarding empathy because if you have empathy for someone who hurt you, why not have empathy for another person who is hurt? That scenario would bother me as it did you. I would look for consistency between the two situations and wonder if the friend didn't think my hurt was justifiable, yet hers was. It would feel rather dismissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    For me, the only reason I need for why it's inappropriate behavior is that it made me, and probably other people around me, feel shitty for something that has nothing to do with me, or someone else. Now, If the person apologizes and said they made the mistake, I can let it go, but if they keep on insisting they did nothing wrong, that's going to bother me.

    Boiled down, the reactions of the other person are essentially what matters. I don't think it's so much about being fake as it is about creating win-win scenarios, or in a maybe more developed form like that of @fia it can be about balancing the needs of the few with the needs of the many.

    Although sometimes, it can be about letting others know that you aren't going to let them intimidate me. Because in some situations, this is the only thing people respond to, unfortunately. A fun way to do this is just through honesty, and just pointing out things I've noticed about them that conflict with their self-image or world-view. It sounds a little harsh, maybe, but acting on this allows me to let go of whatever anger I've been feeling and move on, and creates a space for reconciliation (for myself, anyway.)

    And, if nothing else, it usually gets people off my case because the realize that I can bite back.
    Biting back does help solve a lot of these problems better than running away. There is a primal level to new interactions in which people compare their relative levels of dominance. I see it, can know that is what is required, and yet not be able to execute it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #332
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    I've discovered that feeling offended has much to do with the Enneagram's social instinct. That people who value social instinct have a stronger sense of what's appropriate and what's not appropriate to say in various social instuation. Sp/sx and Sx/sp on the contrary are described as "loose cannons" and "blurtateous" because they don't have such social sensitivity.

    So this doesn't correspond only to being Fe or Fi type.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You missed that whole thread I think.

    Basically it seems the NFJs (and perhaps all FJs, or all Fe users?) dislike objective facts being mixed in with emotion-based information. The NFPs (and perhaps all FPs or all Fi users?) can filter through what is objective and what is subjective and take something of value away from it. Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time. For this reason they prefer to separate emotions from factual information in a more defined manner; they like it to fit into one category or the other and for this to be clearly signposted. If someone mixes facts with emotions (or subjective bias in general) it seems that FJs see that as an attempt to exploit their easily affected nature, and manipulate them into a particular conclusion. It undermines the purity of the facts for them. Whereas Fi is much more concerned about the purity of the subjective experience (feelings in particular).
    i have to say, i don't relate to this at all.... neither the Fe or the Fi descriptions....

    for me it's always my subjective experience trying to estimate the objective reality which includes subjective entities within it....

    edit for clarification:
    - my subjective reality is an attempt to grasp objective reality
    - other people are agents within the objective reality
    - their subjective reality is thus an element of objective reality

    so if your telling me what your feeling or thinking, your giving me objective information about what is going on within the mind of an objectively existing person. now i know a bit more of how person X, which (to the best of subjective knowledge) seems to exist within the objective world, is experiencing that objective world.

    looking at objective reality vs. subjective reality as categorically separate... it seems to me to be a false dichotomy.

  4. #334
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I definitely understand what you mean, but I do obsess over unsettling behaviors to understand why the person behaves like that, and why it is unproductive. I can't leave it alone until I have at least one, if not more hypotheses about the reasons behind it. For me I get lost in my Ni-Ti loop after the fact. For the issue with the conductor, I've analyzed that there is a two-way virtually abusive dynamic that can occur. When conductors don't act like that, there will often be members of the orchestra that begin to fill that role. Conductors have social pressure to be in absolute control or their skill can be questioned by the 50+ people standing before them. The orchestra model developed in Europe as a microcosm of its political structures. The improvisatory jazz ensemble of relatively equal individuals is a microcosm of democracy. I also realize that classical music has a sophisticated hazing system that creates a circular dynamic. Every musician who behaves like that was treated like that and has to cling to a dominant role or run the risk of ending up in the submissive, criticized role. I have also noticed that there are a few personality types that can nearly flourish in that environment, mostly E-TJs, and there can even be a sort of pride of creating additional obstacles to conquer. It destroys probably more personality types, since the arts do attract sensitive people. The worst conductor I faced offended me in part because of his stupidity, especially towards me. I was the only person who played my instrument within 100miles, I was willing to work within their budget, I work hard and pull off whatever is handed to me. Instead he paid me below the bottom of the scale, made snarky faces at me, and treated me really weird. My best guess is that he was trying to psychologically dominate me into accepting the lowest possible pay. I quit. I remember saying snarkily to my husband that I wasn't sure which offended me more, his meanness or stupidity.

    I also analyze my own reactions to death and realize it has to do with father-figure and authority figure issues, etc. etc.

    I described this in detail because I think it is important to realize the commonalities and complexities amongst reactions from various types. I am not typically able to analyze when placed on the spot or being hurt when I am supposed to perform a task, although somehow I manage to perform the task, typically. This is why I withdraw and cannot let go of the topic inwardly until I can make some kind of sense of it.

    There is also one level of non-judgment that occurs. I distance myself from such a scenario and consider that if everyone in that environment prefers it that way, then I let go and leave them to their choice of dynamics. If it works for them, great. I feel like the context is significant and that people seek coherency, similarities of patterns. Since that model originated in environments of strict authority, it likely provided a sense of security and familiarity for people. It is at odds with my context and model, so if I can't influence it in another direction, I will leave. I am unmotivated to influence it if that is not helpful to anyone except for me. If many people suffer from it, then it is worth changing.

    I realize this was pretty long post, but I am just trying to use it as an example of how a person could think.
    Orchestras are strange and fascinating in their social politics. There's so much history wound up in it and so many roles are established in very particular ways. You wonder how much is rigid adherence to convention and how much is natural, and perhaps necessary, dynamics. I imagine that trying to resolve a situation with an asshole conductor can be like fighting history. It's interesting that you liken it to hazing too. I wouldn't have thought about it like that.

    But yes these factors do add complexity to the situation. Maybe each of the musicians needs to be treated like dirt a little to create a level playing field; to eliminate egos and diva behaviour; to force people into teamwork; to teach them total submission to the conductor. I don't know enough about it to know if that really works or if it's totally necessary. From what I've heard, in a relatively respectable orchestra, each individual member is exceptional in their field. They've spent a lifetime practising and perfecting their technique - something that is typically done alone. Naturally this can often lead to an arrogance, an unwillingness to listen and a resistance to teamwork. Perhaps a strong hand is necessary to break down those behaviours.

    Personally, I think you can be tough without being an asshole.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #335
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    I've discovered that feeling offended has much to do with the Enneagram's social instinct. That people who value social instinct have a stronger sense of what's appropriate and what's not appropriate to say in various social instuation. Sp/sx and Sx/sp on the contrary are described as "loose cannons" and "blurtateous" because they don't have such social sensitivity.

    So this doesn't correspond only to being Fe or Fi type.
    Hey you might be right.

  6. #336
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Hey you might be right.
    I think so. I say stupid shit all the time. But I've noticed that INFP truly are also awkward (and not just making it up, like I thought before) , just in a different way.

    I think INPs are very unlikely to be So. I'd include INTJs in that list also. Not sure about INFJs.... it might be somewhat more common, but they certainly can also be solitary. Introverted Sensors I don't know enough about.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  7. #337
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think INPs are very unlikely to be So. I'd include INTJs in that list also. Not sure about INFJs.... it might be somewhat more common, but they certainly can also be solitary. Introverted Sensors I don't know enough about.
    Agreed. I feel the isolation of being an so-dom INFP. It runs contrary to type, and is also contrary to enneagram 9.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #338
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are two stages in my reaction to behavior like what the nasty conductor does. I do feel annoyed by it right away, before any analysis. It is unproductive in that it is words, effort, and time spent without getting the group any closer to the supposed goals. I also find it ugly in an almost aesthetic sense. I recognize, though, that some of this is subjective and not everyone might be bothered by the behavior. Also, other people have different ways of doing things, so what looks unproductive and inefficient to me (and may actually be so) might be something the other person has found works for them. I feel, therefore, almost a burden of proof on myself in expecting something to change. It is not enough simply to say I don't like it, or it offends my sensibilities. it is incumbent on me to show why the nasty behavior really is a bad idea in some more objective sense.
    Exactly. The bolded is especially well put - I very much agree.

    My immediate instinct/reaction might be that his behaviour wrong, but I have to make a case for why it's wrong, beyond how it simply effects me. I take note of my reaction and value it as one opinion, one sign, one potential conclusion, but I don't assume that it's right until I've considered other possible explanations and run the numbers, so to speak.

    Is this Fi understanding that people's values are different, with Te trying to find the external, objective common ground based on reaching shared goals? In any case, it is a common and natural thought process for me.
    I think it's more than that. I think it's about trying to find common ground between the subjective evaluation and the objective evaluation. If they don't match up then there needs to be a shift: either you need to find a rational argument for why that initial instinct was accurate, or you need to alter your mindset to the appropriate response. On top of that (similar to what you mentioned), Fi considers the subjective reasoning of the other individual, and Te considers the role of the universal.

    I would say that probably FPs put more stock in the instinctual reaction and TJs put more stock in what they can clearly prove. Of course, both approaches have their pros and cons.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That's another thing that might be Fe vs. Fi. I'll be complaining about someone else's behavior, and then someone else will try and explain it to me, and say things like "Oh, he's under a lot of stress, you have to see it from his point of view." Fine. Sure, whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying as hell.
    The things is, with Fi-users (primarily with FPs) the explanation can very much effect the reaction. For us, if there's a good enough reason for why someone behaves like an asshole, it can potentially dissipate our annoyance altogether; the right perspective can negate the emotions.

    And then, a few days or weeks later, the Fi person will complain about the same thing I was complaining about. This kind of thing annoys me to no end, because I feel like they just ignored me. And what's worse, now they want me to have some kind of appropriate reaction to their dissatisfaction, but the only thing I feel is annoyance at them for brushing off the exact same complaint when I made it.

    I guess they don't like to come to conclusions on those things so quickly, though.
    I can see why this would bother you.

    Personally, I tend to breeze over those immediate reactions (the same one you're probably having) because they're just so apparent and straight-forward. I don't mention them because it would be like stating the obvious. I've usually moved 5 steps past that in a just a few seconds, so what you end up hearing isn't affirmation of a reaction, instead it's the reaction to the reaction (or the reaction to the reaction to the reaction ). If that thought ends up taking a very complicated route, and after much processing, circles back to the original response, I may not notice that it's what you originally mentioned.

    I don't think it's just that we don't like to come to conclusions quickly, it's partly that we just can't. We just don't have the short hand version that Fe has, and sometimes the long way is the only reliable way for me. Also it's important that Fi users do take the long way or else we can get lost in lazy assumptions, become reactive or make selfish decisions.

    For me, the only reason I need for why it's inappropriate behavior is that it made me, and probably other people around me, feel shitty for something that has nothing to do with me, or someone else. Now, If the person apologizes and said they made the mistake, I can let it go, but if they keep on insisting they did nothing wrong, that's going to bother me.

    Boiled down, the reactions of the other person are essentially what matters. I don't think it's so much about being fake as it is about creating win-win scenarios, or in a maybe more developed form like that of fia it can be about balancing the needs of the few with the needs of the many.

    Although sometimes, it can be about letting others know that you aren't going to let them intimidate me. Because in some situations, this is the only thing people respond to, unfortunately. A fun way to do this is just through honesty, and just pointing out things I've noticed about them that conflict with their self-image or world-view. It sounds a little harsh, maybe, but acting on this allows me to let go of whatever anger I've been feeling and move on, and creates a space for reconciliation (for myself, anyway.)

    And, if nothing else, it usually gets people off my case because the realize that I can bite back.
    This does make sense to me but I just have trouble trusting in that stuff. It's not that I discount other people's reactions, it's just that I would be really nervous about relying on them too much. It would feel like blindly following, hoping that those people are right. I need to grasp the reasoning to feel safe in making a judgement.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #339
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There is an inconsistency regarding empathy because if you have empathy for someone who hurt you, why not have empathy for another person who is hurt? That scenario would bother me as it did you. I would look for consistency between the two situations and wonder if the friend didn't think my hurt was justifiable, yet hers was. It would feel rather dismissive.
    It might seem dismissive, yes. The things is that FPs often forget to directly voice the implied information; the hypothesis, the methodology, the footnotes and the disclaimers. It's like doing a complex maths equation, writing the answer down and not showing the working. It's quite possible that the friend had empathy for both parties and thought that both's behaviour was reasonable (in their subjective perspective). The friend may have in all likelihood registered the hurt @msg_v2 felt, and thought it a totally reasonable reaction to the situation, but forgot to overtly validate that. Instead, she/he just moved on to trying to fix the situation by explaining the other guy's perspective (in hopes it would help negate the emotions). I realise this may seem a bit insensitive, but it can be a genuine mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i have to say, i don't relate to this at all.... neither the Fe or the Fi descriptions....
    Again, it may just be a NFP vs. NFJ thing (or FP vs. FJ). I didn't mean to force it on the TPs and TJs too.

    for me it's always my subjective experience trying to estimate the objective reality which includes subjective entities within it....

    basically: if your telling me what your feeling or thinking, your giving me objective information about what is going on within the mind of an objectively existing person. now i know a bit more of how person X, which (to the best of subjective knowledge) seems to exist within the objective world, is experiencing that objective world.

    basically it seems to me to be a false dichotomy.
    Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at.

    I don't see that information coming from another person as objective - I just classify it as subjective information from another source other than myself. The objective information then comes from drawing together many subjective threads until they form a clear pattern.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #340
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    How do you politely tell an Fe user that you're not in the mood to talk when they try and engage you? As much as it pains me to say this, my ISFJ mother loves to small talk with me and verbalize things, and while I understand her need for it and try my best to be receptive, I'm not always in the mood for it, and whenever I tell her this or give her a short response, she reacts by thinking I'm being intentionally spiteful towards her. Although it isn't that bad, it makes me feel terrible sometimes, and I wish I could find some way for me to communicate with her better when this type of situation arises....I can't really mirror her Fe consistently, and the fact that I'm generally inarticulate doesn't help either.

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