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  1. #321
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    Seeking Fe practical mobilization, gets Te crude harshness and Fi impractical idealistic ethics.

    Does this change for TJ/TP where Fi/Fe are in tert/aux position?


    I don't think that it does, although I would need practical mobilization to be better defined. I seem to relate to this somewhat. Motivation, perhaps? I often react to Fi as though it wear overly pure... too pure to be workable. I can see all the situations where it would fail and wouldn't work, or even where it seems contradicted when compared to my "universal" ethics. It has no answer for these situations beyond "stick to your values." Extraverted Thinking I think I'm a little more flexible on, at least as long as I feel sure that the Extraverted Thinker actually does know more about something than I am. If I suspect our knowledge of something is equal, then maybe I might balk at it.






    Yes. I dislike being in a situation where I am expected to assume something, or read between the lines like this.
    Meh, I just assume that this is something I'm going to have to do when I interact with someone. I'm not always good at it though. But I find that I have to do this around FPs, too. I think there's a larger pattern I can see that the FP doesn't realize, though. It's probably less because they are trying to be delicate about it, and more that I'm able to interpret the situation differently from the outside.


    On the flip side, I dislike being offered


    help when I don't need it, because someone has assumed wrong or has some other agenda.

    I dislike this too. I loathe when I'm in a store, and someone asks me if I need help because I'm looking around and haven't immediately made a decision. I know it's their job, so I try not to bite their head off, but it does bug me.


    I feel the tendency in myself to do this, because I can have very strong ideas about what is right, even for another person. I have learned to state my


    opinion and make my case, then really step back from it at that point, and let the person make their own choice without further pressure. (Of course,


    I'm not above saying "I told you so" if it turns out I was right!)

    But then people go and they say "You can't say I told you so!" People will hold you responsible for following your bad advice. If they ignore good advice, they will come back to you, though, and ask you to repeat the same advice they ignored the first time. They may even ignore it again. Often times, I just prefer not to get mixed up in it, because I feel like I don't have enough information to begin with.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #322
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Killjoy Village is a happier place than you think. It's not a very good name.
    Hush - don't give away the secret. If the name sounded more appealing, all kinds of riff-raff would want to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Would you prefer something manlier like Ultimate Frisbee? NFPs love ultimate frisbee. There are mountains of scientific evidence.
    Manly, schmanly. When I don't want to be bothered, it's usually because I am in the middle of a task or project myself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #323
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Hush - don't give away the secret. If the name sounded more appealing, all kinds of riff-raff would want to come.


    Manly, schmanly. When I don't want to be bothered, it's usually because I am in the middle of a task or project myself.
    I'm either absorbed in something, in a pissy mood to begin with, or god forbid, actually trying to get something done. Usually not actually watching cricket.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  4. #324
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I relate to this in two different ways. In online debates I can feel frustrated when objective information which is the core of the discussion is mixed in with ad hominem attacks because I find it distracting. The same is true of playing in an orchestra. When the conductor is angry, temperamental, and humiliates members, I can't focus on the music. It doesn't motivate me in the least to play better, but just distracts. In those impersonal settings I think I agree with what you are saying, and it does feel like manipulation to me.
    Makes sense.

    The tyrannical conductor would bother me for slightly different reasons, though. Personally, I agree with what @Coriolis said, I might object to it primarily because it's unproductive (another example of Te-Fi way of thinking perhaps?). I mean, I definitely don't like people speaking to others like that, but I'm inclined to find a reason why that's a bad approach rather than focus on the shittiness of the behaviour; I want to know/show why, in general, it is a bad idea to behave like that. I think Fe takes the fact that it's a bad idea for granted (this isn't a negative thing - it's just a different way of analysing the situation), whereas I need to find the reason why, and maybe make an argument for that. Perhaps this is because Fi has no intrinsic rules for what is good or reasonable or appropriate, and it needs to discover or prove it on a case by case basis (along with some personal values they've established through similar means but prior to the event). In this sense Fi is still engaging with the situation and evaluating all the factors, when Fe has long walked out in disgust. However, I think both types react in disgust, but Fi isn't as affected by that emotional response. Again, neither method is right or wrong, it just comes up with slightly different resulting reactions. In fact, the Fi user might end up walking out in disgust too (ie. ultimately have the same reaction as the Fe user), but it may take longer for them to get to that place.

    Perhaps this adds to the confusion between the types. Fe sees the conclusion as self-evident, but Fi won't believe it until they come up with an argument to explain it, or have one presented to them. I suppose this can seem like Fi users are consciously and stubbornly resisting (or refusing to admit that they feel) the natural reaction to a situation. The Fi users don't mention that they feel disgusted by it (even though they do - they just skip over it the detail) and proceed to seemingly justify the situation, which I guess seems invalidating to Fe; like ignoring the elephant in the room?

    In personal conflict, I will tend to function on two levels. There will be the visceral, emotional, hurt level where I can be crying or upset, but I can also reason and discuss, or when alone, just analyze internally at the same time. If the emotional state originates within me, I can focus on reasoned discussion probably better than average. I tend to dismiss my own emotions in that state as being the same as vomiting or coughing. I see it as just a physiological reaction to something. It is possible that the difference has to do with my level of trust within the dynamic.
    Huh. I never really thought of it being different depending on whether the emotions originate within you or another person. This just isn't a factor for me.

    I have to think more on that.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #325
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The key to communication would therefore be in learning to translate 4 ways: Te-Ti, Te-Fe, Ti-Fi, and Fi-Fe. To be willing to remove the idealism in the case of the introverted functions and to apply realism, to remove the realism in the case of the extraverted functions and to apply idealism, to remove the personal perspective in the case of the Feeling functions and apply impersonal perspective, and to remove the impersonal perspective in the case of the Thinking functions and apply personal perspective.

    It would seem this could be part of why FPs and FJs often agree on the surface but then it tends to break down once conversation really gets started, but then can come to mutual conclusions again far down the line.
    Do you think perhaps that rather than translating Fe into Fi (or vice versa), find a way to translate it into Te? That perhaps there might be more common language between Ji-Ji and Je-Je, than Ji-Je?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I get tired of the Fe-ers in my life endlessly hinting at me to do something instead of just stating it out right. I suspect they want something from me but I find it so irritating to have to puzzle it out when it would make both of our lives easier if they just spit it out.

    Generalized example:

    Fe-user: Boy this table I am trying to move foolishly all on my own sure is heavy!

    What would work better:

    Fe-user: Hey I need to move a table and I think it will be too heavy for me to move solo, do you mind helping me out for 5 minutes?

    Otherwise it just comes off as a guilt trip designed to infringe upon my freedom to choose since there is usually no escape clause embedded in the hint. It's you do this magical thing I am hinting at or the world is about to end.

    - fin thread -
    I totally agree with this. But then...

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    To me, it seems to be the same thing either way. I can't believe for a minute that the Fi user wouldn't be annoyed if I said.... "No, I have to watch the cricket match." Either way, there isn't really freedom to choose, not unless you want the person annoyed at you. I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.
    I do think sometimes Fi people phrase things so that I feel like I'm free to make my own decision. This would be fine, except they seem to do this even when they want me to make a specific decision.

    When they tell me that, I read that as them telling me that they don't really care one way or the other. Don't say it's "up to me" and then try and persuade me into doing something different... I know what you're doing there.
    Yeah, I totally picked up the fault in what Saturned said and then this post immediately followed

    I do know what you mean, though; there can be an unpleasant usage of that approach. My former boss (a ENFP) abused it terribly. He told me outright when I first got there that all workers' opinions are equal with his and we all just share and discuss ideas freely, unless he has to make a financial decision. Then he would pull this manipulative BS where he totally contradicted that. It was like I was free to have my opinion as long as he pretty much agreed with it - he only gave me the perception of choice. If he didn't agree he would tell you all the flaws in your plan and go on and on. I would argue my case, assuming that it was just a matter of which idea made more sense (ie. who had a better argument for their case). Of course it didn't, he just wanted to wear me down until I did it his way. Once, after a lot of back and forth debate (I'm quite stubborn), he yelled at me basically for not agreeing with him. I wasn't being convinced by his argument and it pissed him off. If he had just told me, "do it this way", there would be no problem at all; I would submit to his authority without another word. In fact, I wish he had done that a lot of the time.

    Anyway, it used to drive me frickin' CRAZY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I do the highlighted all the time, but have attributed it to Te rather than Fi. I never considered the role of Fi in it, though I'm often the first to point out that no function operates in a vacuum, they all work together.
    Absolutely. Whenever I write about Fi, I often mentally note that this is really Fi-Te or Te-Fi. They exist on their own in a sense but their relationship is sort of like the Hegelian dialectic. For me when I write "Fi", it's just a shorthand for more surface usage of one element in the process created by the inextricably intertwined relationship. In other words, the difference between TJ or FP usage is simply determined by which function is the "master" and which is the "slave".

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    That is very true. But at the same time, I think the way it is "supposed" to go in the Fi world is:

    A: "Hey, would you help me move this table?"
    B: "This cricket match is at a really intense point right now. Do you mind if I help you as soon as it calms down?"
    A: "Oh no that's fine!"

    (alternatively, A: "My arms are going to break off if you don't help me move the table right now!"
    B: "Sucks for you. I'll call the wahmbulance.")

    It's like... you're supposed to hit on certain things that affirm the value of the other person, but it's okay if you have other things you value, too, and you respect both of them. It's okay that you're really into your cricket match as long as you respect that the other person could use your help. Or you could suggest that someone else could help them. You have to acknowledge the Te fact that the table needs to be moved, and the Fi value that you want to help them. But you can also acknowledge the Te fact that the match happens to be at a great point you don't want to miss out on, since cricket is Fi valuable to you.

    The second scenario is where Fi/Ne overexaggeration and "cold" Te playfulness can come in.
    Yes, I agree. That is the goal: to allow people to offer an alternative scenario/approach/timeline/idea etc if they don't agree with the suggested one. It's not meant to be a veiled imperative; it's "I share, you share". But as I said, some people abuse it, and if they do, I think they deserve to be called out on that.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #326
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Makes sense.

    The tyrannical conductor would bother me for slightly different reasons, though. Personally, I agree with what @Coriolis said, I might object to it primarily because it's unproductive (another example of Te-Fi way of thinking perhaps?). I mean, I definitely don't like people speaking to others like that, but I'm inclined to find a reason why that's a bad approach rather than focus on the shittiness of the behaviour; I want to know/show why, in general, it is a bad idea to behave like that. I think Fe takes the fact that it's a bad idea for granted (this isn't a negative thing - it's just a different way of analysing the situation), whereas I need to find the reason why, and maybe make an argument for that. Perhaps this is because Fi has no intrinsic rules for what is good or reasonable or appropriate, and it needs to discover or prove it on a case by case basis (along with some personal values they've established through similar means but prior to the event). In this sense Fi is still engaging with the situation and evaluating all the factors, when Fe has long walked out in disgust. However, I think both types react in disgust, but Fi isn't as affected by that emotional response. Again, neither method is right or wrong, it just comes up with slightly different resulting reactions. In fact, the Fi user might end up walking out in disgust too (ie. ultimately have the same reaction as the Fe user), but it may take longer for them to get to that place.

    Perhaps this adds to the confusion between the types. Fe sees the conclusion as self-evident, but Fi won't believe it until they come up with an argument to explain it, or have one presented to them. I suppose this can seem like Fi users are consciously and stubbornly resisting (or refusing to admit that they feel) the natural reaction to a situation. The Fi users don't mention that they feel disgusted by it (even though they do - they just skip over it the detail) and proceed to seemingly justify the situation, which I guess seems invalidating to Fe; like ignoring the elephant in the room?
    I definitely understand what you mean, but I do obsess over unsettling behaviors to understand why the person behaves like that, and why it is unproductive. I can't leave it alone until I have at least one, if not more hypotheses about the reasons behind it. For me I get lost in my Ni-Ti loop after the fact. For the issue with the conductor, I've analyzed that there is a two-way virtually abusive dynamic that can occur. When conductors don't act like that, there will often be members of the orchestra that begin to fill that role. Conductors have social pressure to be in absolute control or their skill can be questioned by the 50+ people standing before them. The orchestra model developed in Europe as a microcosm of its political structures. The improvisatory jazz ensemble of relatively equal individuals is a microcosm of democracy. I also realize that classical music has a sophisticated hazing system that creates a circular dynamic. Every musician who behaves like that was treated like that and has to cling to a dominant role or run the risk of ending up in the submissive, criticized role. I have also noticed that there are a few personality types that can nearly flourish in that environment, mostly E-TJs, and there can even be a sort of pride of creating additional obstacles to conquer. It destroys probably more personality types, since the arts do attract sensitive people. The worst conductor I faced offended me in part because of his stupidity, especially towards me. I was the only person who played my instrument within 100miles, I was willing to work within their budget, I work hard and pull off whatever is handed to me. Instead he paid me below the bottom of the scale, made snarky faces at me, and treated me really weird. My best guess is that he was trying to psychologically dominate me into accepting the lowest possible pay. I quit. I remember saying snarkily to my husband that I wasn't sure which offended me more, his meanness or stupidity.

    I also analyze my own reactions to death and realize it has to do with father-figure and authority figure issues, etc. etc.

    I described this in detail because I think it is important to realize the commonalities and complexities amongst reactions from various types. I am not typically able to analyze when placed on the spot or being hurt when I am supposed to perform a task, although somehow I manage to perform the task, typically. This is why I withdraw and cannot let go of the topic inwardly until I can make some kind of sense of it.

    There is also one level of non-judgment that occurs. I distance myself from such a scenario and consider that if everyone in that environment prefers it that way, then I let go and leave them to their choice of dynamics. If it works for them, great. I feel like the context is significant and that people seek coherency, similarities of patterns. Since that model originated in environments of strict authority, it likely provided a sense of security and familiarity for people. It is at odds with my context and model, so if I can't influence it in another direction, I will leave. I am unmotivated to influence it if that is not helpful to anyone except for me. If many people suffer from it, then it is worth changing.

    I realize this was pretty long post, but I am just trying to use it as an example of how a person could think.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #327
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Perhaps this adds to the confusion between the types. Fe sees the conclusion as self-evident, but Fi won't believe it until they come up with an argument to explain it, or have one presented to them. I suppose this can seem like Fi users are consciously and stubbornly resisting (or refusing to admit that they feel) the natural reaction to a situation. The Fi users don't mention that they feel disgusted by it (even though they do - they just skip over it the detail) and proceed to seemingly justify the situation, which I guess seems invalidating to Fe; like ignoring the elephant in the room?
    There are two stages in my reaction to behavior like what the nasty conductor does. I do feel annoyed by it right away, before any analysis. It is unproductive in that it is words, effort, and time spent without getting the group any closer to the supposed goals. I also find it ugly in an almost aesthetic sense. I recognize, though, that some of this is subjective and not everyone might be bothered by the behavior. Also, other people have different ways of doing things, so what looks unproductive and inefficient to me (and may actually be so) might be something the other person has found works for them. I feel, therefore, almost a burden of proof on myself in expecting something to change. It is not enough simply to say I don't like it, or it offends my sensibilities. it is incumbent on me to show why the nasty behavior really is a bad idea in some more objective sense.

    Is this Fi understanding that people's values are different, with Te trying to find the external, objective common ground based on reaching shared goals? In any case, it is a common and natural thought process for me.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #328
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    Perhaps this adds to the confusion between the types. Fe sees the conclusion as self-evident, but Fi won't believe it until they come up with an argument to explain it, or have one presented to them. I suppose this can seem like Fi users are consciously and stubbornly resisting (or refusing to admit that they feel) the natural reaction to a situation. The Fi users don't mention that they feel disgusted by it (even though they do - they just skip over it the detail) and proceed to seemingly justify the situation, which I guess seems invalidating to Fe; like ignoring the elephant in the room?
    That's another thing that might be Fe vs. Fi. I'll be complaining about someone else's behavior, and then someone else will try and explain it to me, and say things like "Oh, he's under a lot of stress, you have to see it from his point of view." Fine. Sure, whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying as hell.

    And then, a few days or weeks later, the Fi person will complain about the same thing I was complaining about. This kind of thing annoys me to no end, because I feel like they just ignored me. And what's worse, now they want me to have some kind of appropriate reaction to their dissatisfaction, but the only thing I feel is annoyance at them for brushing off the exact same complaint when I made it.

    I guess they don't like to come to conclusions on those things so quickly, though.

    For me, the only reason I need for why it's inappropriate behavior is that it made me, and probably other people around me, feel shitty for something that has nothing to do with me, or someone else. Now, If the person apologizes and said they made the mistake, I can let it go, but if they keep on insisting they did nothing wrong, that's going to bother me.

    Boiled down, the reactions of the other person are essentially what matters. I don't think it's so much about being fake as it is about creating win-win scenarios, or in a maybe more developed form like that of @fia it can be about balancing the needs of the few with the needs of the many.

    Although sometimes, it can be about letting others know that you aren't going to let them intimidate me. Because in some situations, this is the only thing people respond to, unfortunately. A fun way to do this is just through honesty, and just pointing out things I've noticed about them that conflict with their self-image or world-view. It sounds a little harsh, maybe, but acting on this allows me to let go of whatever anger I've been feeling and move on, and creates a space for reconciliation (for myself, anyway.)

    And, if nothing else, it usually gets people off my case because the realize that I can bite back.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  9. #329
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Is this Fi understanding that people's values are different, with Te trying to find the external, objective common ground based on reaching shared goals? In any case, it is a common and natural thought process for me.
    I don't know if Fi is understanding that people's values are different, because I understand that. I do place a greater importance on how those values affect the wider context, though, in as much as I concern myself with Feeling stuff. For instance, I'll get annoyed at someone who voluntarily adopted a strict diet throwing a hissy fit because people aren't accommodating to the extent that they would like.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  10. #330
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Do you think perhaps that rather than translating Fe into Fi (or vice versa), find a way to translate it into Te? That perhaps there might be more common language between Ji-Ji and Je-Je, than Ji-Je?
    That's an interesting question. I am going to have to think about this. I think there are certain times when certain translations work better but I will have to think about which ones tend to work better when and why.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That's another thing that might be Fe vs. Fi. I'll be complaining about someone else's behavior, and then someone else will try and explain it to me, and say things like "Oh, he's under a lot of stress, you have to see it from his point of view." Fine. Sure, whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying as hell.

    And then, a few days or weeks later, the Fi person will complain about the same thing I was complaining about. This kind of thing annoys me to no end, because I feel like they just ignored me. And what's worse, now they want me to have some kind of appropriate reaction to their dissatisfaction, but the only thing I feel is annoyance at them for brushing off the exact same complaint when I made it.
    It strikes me that in the first situation, you're saying something is annoying you, so the Fi user most likely is trying to help ease your internal annoyance by helping you see it through that person's eyes. They aren't brushing it off; they're trying to help you not feel bad about it. One way of doing that can be minimizing the situation, so I can understand why it might at times feel like a dismissal, but I doubt that is the intention.

    Also, for myself, if someone else later pointed out the same behavior as I indicated earlier, with them having the same emotional reaction, it would feel like confirmation of evidence as well as affirmation of my emotional state. It would be a positive gesture. I would not be at all annoyed by it. After all, when a behavior happens once, it may be a minor aberrance, and not really something worth concentrating on. We all have our days when we are assholes for some reason or another that may have little to do with anything significant. But if it happens again, then it becomes a pattern, and something worth further consideration.

    That is just my take on that.

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