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  1. #311
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post

    Otherwise it just comes off as a guilt trip designed to infringe upon my freedom to choose since there is usually no escape clause embedded in the hint. It's you do this magical thing I am hinting at or the world is about to end.

    - fin thread -
    To me, it seems to be the same thing either way. I can't believe for a minute that the Fi user wouldn't be annoyed if I said.... "No, I have to watch the cricket match." Either way, there isn't really freedom to choose, not unless you want the person annoyed at you. I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  2. #312
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post

    Otherwise it just comes off as a guilt trip designed to infringe upon my freedom to choose since there is usually no escape clause embedded in the hint. It's you do this magical thing I am hinting at or the world is about to end.

    - fin thread -
    To me, it seems to be the same thing either way. I can't believe for a minute that the Fi user wouldn't be annoyed if I said.... "No, I have to watch the cricket match." Either way, there isn't really freedom to choose, not unless you want the person annoyed at you. I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.

    I do think sometimes Fi people phrase things so that I feel like I'm free to make my own decision. This would be fine, except they seem to do this even when they want me to make a specific decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fi
    You can do that whatever you want. Whatever works for you
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    You sure you're fine if I do Y, and not X.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fi
    It's your decision. You can make choices for yourself.
    Ok, I choose Y.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fi
    You know, it's really better if you choose X. X is going to work way better for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I tried X, i didn't really like it. I'm going to go with Y.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fi
    You know, you're going to be much happier if you do X.
    Quote Originally Posted by my head words
    So it does matter to you which one I pick
    That kind of thing makes me want to make the same noise Charlie Brown makes when that football is taken away. If you have an expectation for me to perform a certain action, don't phrase it like it's all the same and that it doesn't matter. Because when you do that, I'm going to go with only what I want and think. When they tell me that, I read that as them telling me that they don't really care one way or the other. Don't say it's "up to me" and then try and persuade me into doing something different... I know what you're doing there.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I get tired of the Fe-ers in my life endlessly hinting at me to do something instead of just stating it out right. I suspect they want something from me but I find it so irritating to have to puzzle it out when it would make both of our lives easier if they just spit it out.

    Generalized example:

    Fe-user: Boy this table I am trying to move foolishly all on my own sure is heavy!

    What would work better:

    Fe-user: Hey I need to move a table and I think it will be too heavy for me to move solo, do you mind helping me out for 5 minutes?

    Otherwise it just comes off as a guilt trip designed to infringe upon my freedom to choose since there is usually no escape clause embedded in the hint. It's you do this magical thing I am hinting at or the world is about to end.

    - fin thread -
    Agree. I don't like asking for things...but because of that I doing myself, instead of "hint". Hate it when they child it against you because you don't get the "hint" also. Isn't this a "woman" thing...lol. not all women, I just mean a "stereotypical" women thing
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #314
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time.
    I do the highlighted all the time, but have attributed it to Te rather than Fi. I never considered the role of Fi in it, though I'm often the first to point out that no function operates in a vacuum, they all work together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Which type would get offended for having a harder time taking the context into consideration?
    Subjective or objective context? In other words, the factual circumstances, or the emotional atmosphere -- or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I relate to this in two different ways. In online debates I can feel frustrated when objective information which is the core of the discussion is mixed in with ad hominem attacks because I find it distracting. The same is true of playing in an orchestra. When the conductor is angry, temperamental, and humiliates members, I can't focus on the music. It doesn't motivate me in the least to play better, but just distracts. In those impersonal settings I think I agree with what you are saying, and it does feel like manipulation to me.
    I just strip out the emotional attacks to find the objective content. When I find there is none, that is the disappointment. I think this is much easier to do online. In RL situations like your orchestra example, I find that kind of behavior counterproductive in that it just injects noise (no pun intended) into the proceedings. Pulling out the legitimate criticisms becomes much more work.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The FJ,

    Seeking Fe practical mobilization, gets Te crude harshness and Fi impractical idealistic ethics.
    Seeking Ti idealistic logic, gets Fi subjective inaccuracy and Te temporary superficial logistical solution.

    The FP,

    Seeking Fi idealistic ethic, gets Ti impersonal criticality and Fe temporary superficial solution.
    Seeking Te impersonal facilitation, gets Fe personal directives and Ti impractical idealistic logic.
    Does this change for TJ/TP where Fi/Fe are in tert/aux position?

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    To me, it seems to be the same thing either way. I can't believe for a minute that the Fi user wouldn't be annoyed if I said.... "No, I have to watch the cricket match." Either way, there isn't really freedom to choose, not unless you want the person annoyed at you. I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.
    Yes. I dislike being in a situation where I am expected to assume something, or read between the lines like this. On the flip side, I dislike being offered help when I don't need it, because someone has assumed wrong or has some other agenda. When I want help, I ask very explicitly.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I do think sometimes Fi people phrase things so that I feel like I'm free to make my own decision. This would be fine, except they seem to do this even when they want me to make a specific decision.
    I feel the tendency in myself to do this, because I can have very strong ideas about what is right, even for another person. I have learned to state my opinion and make my case, then really step back from it at that point, and let the person make their own choice without further pressure. (Of course, I'm not above saying "I told you so" if it turns out I was right!)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #315
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Does this change for TJ/TP where Fi/Fe are in tert/aux position?
    I would tend to assume it is the same process of seeking one thing and finding another... probably the Fs will be looking more for their F processes and the Ts for the T processes, but I suspect it is the same clash in general. Would you agree with that, as a TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2
    I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.

    I do think sometimes Fi people phrase things so that I feel like I'm free to make my own decision. This would be fine, except they seem to do this even when they want me to make a specific decision.
    That is very true. But at the same time, I think the way it is "supposed" to go in the Fi world is:

    A: "Hey, would you help me move this table?"
    B: "This cricket match is at a really intense point right now. Do you mind if I help you as soon as it calms down?"
    A: "Oh no that's fine!"

    (alternatively, A: "My arms are going to break off if you don't help me move the table right now!"
    B: "Sucks for you. I'll call the wahmbulance.")

    It's like... you're supposed to hit on certain things that affirm the value of the other person, but it's okay if you have other things you value, too, and you respect both of them. It's okay that you're really into your cricket match as long as you respect that the other person could use your help. Or you could suggest that someone else could help them. You have to acknowledge the Te fact that the table needs to be moved, and the Fi value that you want to help them. But you can also acknowledge the Te fact that the match happens to be at a great point you don't want to miss out on, since cricket is Fi valuable to you.

    The second scenario is where Fi/Ne overexaggeration and "cold" Te playfulness can come in.

  6. #316
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I would tend to assume it is the same process of seeking one thing and finding another... probably the Fs will be looking more for their F processes and the Ts for the T processes, but I suspect it is the same clash in general. Would you agree with that, as a TJ?
    You are right that the Te process gets much more attention. "Seeking Te impersonal facilitation, gets Fe personal directives and Ti impractical idealistic logic" is then the biggest conflict. "Seeking Fi idealistic ethic, gets Ti impersonal criticality and Fe temporary superficial solution" is probably accurate, too, though I never looked at it that way. I can understand someone having a different "Fi idealistic ethic" and discuss on these terms to understand each other. I can deal with criticisms of my Fi ideals in terms of consistency and practicality, but responses that contain none of the above seem to miss the point entirely. Perhaps Fe and Ti are what is left over here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #317
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    Oh goody. Fe's counterpart, Ti, has arrived to the station. Let's see which killjoy village it drops us off at. Oh, right. ALL OF THEM.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    To me, it seems to be the same thing either way. I can't believe for a minute that the Fi user wouldn't be annoyed if I said.... "No, I have to watch the cricket match." Either way, there isn't really freedom to choose, not unless you want the person annoyed at you. I don't feel like I have any more freedom if someone states something more directly. The only thing is that if someone is less direct, I might not understand that they are asking me to do something. It varies.
    Well, I would upset if my man said he was watching cricket because I didn't realize I liked wussies so much. Unless he had a Brit accent in which case ALL IS FORGIVEN so long as he talks dirty to me, MRROW.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Agree. I don't like asking for things...but because of that I doing myself, instead of "hint". Hate it when they child it against you because you don't get the "hint" also. Isn't this a "woman" thing...lol. not all women, I just mean a "stereotypical" women thing
    Lulz, possibly!! I prefer the direct and happy approach because it makes things happier in ze long run. I'm not a real girl!! D: I am the Pinocchio of vaginas.

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Lulz, possibly!! I prefer the direct and happy approach because it makes things happier in ze long run. I'm not a real girl!! D: I am the Pinocchio of vaginas.
    Lol...imagining all the possible parts that can grow when you lie
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #320
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Oh goody. Fe's counterpart, Ti, has arrived to the station. Let's see which killjoy village it drops us off at. Oh, right. ALL OF THEM.
    Killjoy Village is a happier place than you think. It's not a very good name.


    Well, I would upset if my man said he was watching cricket because I didn't realize I liked wussies so much. Unless he had a Brit accent in which case ALL IS FORGIVEN so long as he talks dirty to me, MRROW.
    Would you prefer something manlier like Ultimate Frisbee? NFPs love ultimate frisbee. There are mountains of scientific evidence.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

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