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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Haven't you ever heard of constructive criticism? There was nothing to fix in @highlander's remark. His point seemed to be that these Fe comments are not always constructive. Not surprisingly I agree with his perspective, and often find in such situations that people are putting superficiality over substance, or judging the book by its cover.
    me = said person with Fe preference criticizing @highlander for how he said something..
    something = complains about being criticized by said person with Fe preference for what he said or how he said it


  2. #302
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ouoh! what is this? i don't understand any of this. can an INFJ (or PeaceBaby) explain? And is it also the line of thought of ENFJs!?
    You missed that whole thread I think.

    Basically it seems the NFJs (and perhaps all FJs, or all Fe users?) dislike objective facts being mixed in with emotion-based information. The NFPs (and perhaps all FPs or all Fi users?) can filter through what is objective and what is subjective and take something of value away from it. Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time. For this reason they prefer to separate emotions from factual information in a more defined manner; they like it to fit into one category or the other and for this to be clearly signposted. If someone mixes facts with emotions (or subjective bias in general) it seems that FJs see that as an attempt to exploit their easily affected nature, and manipulate them into a particular conclusion. It undermines the purity of the facts for them. Whereas Fi is much more concerned about the purity of the subjective experience (feelings in particular).
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #303
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ouoh! what is this? i don't understand any of this. can an INFJ (or @PeaceBaby) explain? And is it also the line of thought of ENFJs!?
    A specific example might be that if you want feedback about why some INFJ you know did such-and-such, it’s most effective to post, “I’m having this problem with an INFJ I know (or “a couple of INFJs I know”), can anyone help me understand why this is happening?”

    If you post it as though you’re presenting some theory (e.g. “INFJs do this because their Ni _____ and their Fe ___, etc.”) as if it applies to all, then we’ll be too distracted by the SYSTEM ERROR flashing through our mind to actually be able to see any truth in what you’re saying. We will nitpick that mofo to death, explaining why it does not apply to all and why it is not an objective assessment- not to invalidate the feeling behind it (which is how it seems to get interpreted) but just to get rid of the SYSTEM ERROR message in our own heads.

    In short- if you’re venting, that needs to be made clear (not sure “venting” is the right word, but it’s the best one I can come up with just now). Presenting a theory as if it’s ‘objective’ means that it would need to be objective (e.g. someone studying the functions without some aim of sorting out personal feelings)- it can’t be fueled by some emotional charge or we sense that and it trips us up. It needs to be presented as sorting out personal feelings if that’s what it is.

    [If you want to see this in action, you need look no farther than the doorslam thread….or this one, which is probably the one Southern Kross is talking about.]

    I do see this a bit in the ENFJs I know, but it isn’t as pronounced. I’ll just see them shrink back a bit because a mental note has been made that something isn’t adding up. [Though they can certainly answer to that better than I could.]


    eta: I should note that I personally would be fine with hearing the whole "Ni does ___ and Fe does ____" if a disclaimer is added and it's explicitly stated that you're trying to work through personal issues with an NFJ and you want to know if the theory resonates. (I should probably add that even beyond that, I still need for things to be phrased "it seems like" and/or "it appear as though" instead of having it stated declaratively- or it will still trip me up.) Without that clear disclaimer though, I sense the charged emotion and can't get past it. It should be noted that I have no idea how much this applies to SFJs (though I suspect it would be somewhat the same).

    eta: It's also worth mentioning, this is a conclusion the INFJs in this forum reached. It's always possible this forum draws in a certain kind of INFJ and that this isn't as widely applicable as it may seem.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  4. #304
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that is very true to my experience, but i also noticed a pattern when it happened: in areas where the patience required can't be blamed on the other, but rather on the subject matter itself:
    this includes both the patience required of NTPs for Ni to both do it's internal processing and back track to where it came from to understand how it got the idea and understood something, and the patience required of NTJs to watch as Ne-Ti finishes it's last few dozen^x rounds around the possible ways to break down the problem...
    [
    [qwu and both of those seem to come mostly easily when progress - whether it is on a project or in further understanding something - depends on persistent, external factors .
    What kind of external persistent factors? Perhaps I should allow them the time to formulate more clear statements instead of demanding them immediately.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What kind of external persistent factors?
    a few examples off the tip of my head:
    - when the discussions entails the next stages of the project you are working on which you can't get too anyway until the team finishes the current stage (RL example: coding, writing & flashing out content together, unfolding small scale petty political schemes)
    - when the discussion includes long waiting periods for the responses of a lot of different people who are in on the endeavor (RL example: coordinating initiating & LARPs).
    - when the discussion requires waiting for actual data regarding the nature of the events being analyzed or the change being forecast (RL: following events in politics, expected software or book releases, following the LHC or that time they thought they found a particle traveling in FTL, etc).

    edit: i am wondering if any of this can somehow be stretched to work for Fi/Fe....

  6. #306
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You missed that whole thread I think.

    Basically it seems the NFJs (and perhaps all FJs, or all Fe users?) dislike objective facts being mixed in with emotion-based information. The NFPs (and perhaps all FPs or all Fi users?) can filter through what is objective and what is subjective and take something of value away from it. Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time. For this reason they prefer to separate emotions from factual information in a more defined manner; they like it to fit into one category or the other and for this to be clearly signposted. If someone mixes facts with emotions (or subjective bias in general) it seems that FJs see that as an attempt to exploit their easily affected nature, and manipulate them into a particular conclusion. It undermines the purity of the facts for them. Whereas Fi is much more concerned about the purity of the subjective experience (feelings in particular).
    ok, i get it, but this is valid only in the rare case that my/someone's mood is altered. not valid in normal conversation (or?)
    also, i have to remind myself everytime that, whilst Fe-users seem way more emotional than Fi-users, at the end of the day (also by what you're saying) they seem like unemotional machines (wtf!?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    A specific example might be that if you want feedback about why some INFJ you know did such-and-such, it’s most effective to post, “I’m having this problem with an INFJ I know (or “a couple of INFJs I know”), can anyone help me understand why this is happening?”

    If you post it as though you’re presenting some theory (e.g. “INFJs do this because their Ni _____ and their Fe ___, etc.”) as if it applies to all, then we’ll be too distracted by the SYSTEM ERROR flashing through our mind to actually be able to see any truth in what you’re saying. We will nitpick that mofo to death, explaining why it does not apply to all and why it is not an objective assessment- not to invalidate the feeling behind it (which is how it seems to get interpreted) but just to get rid of the SYSTEM ERROR message in our own heads. .......etc.etc....
    ok ok i get it now. but reading this makes me feel you're INTJs or something.....aren't you emotionally proficient enough to swift through the emotion taint thing of the conversation? in your case, if i was telling my experience with someone and asking for your opinion, i'd be very careful to mention that it's my own personal experience and that my outlook on it may be narrow and not representative of the bigger, true state of things (Ne?). but normally i get along very well with INFJs, i guess we both have that dominant non-judgmental outlook on things..be it Ne for me or Ni for you.

  7. #307
    Riva
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    Which type would get offended for having a harder time taking the context into consideration?

    Theoretically it should be fps who should have an issue in this department but i've met a few fjs that have issues too? Maybe it's their/fjs' desire to politically correct others to maintain harmony which makes it appear so?

  8. #308
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You missed that whole thread I think.

    Basically it seems the NFJs (and perhaps all FJs, or all Fe users?) dislike objective facts being mixed in with emotion-based information. The NFPs (and perhaps all FPs or all Fi users?) can filter through what is objective and what is subjective and take something of value away from it. Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time. For this reason they prefer to separate emotions from factual information in a more defined manner; they like it to fit into one category or the other and for this to be clearly signposted. If someone mixes facts with emotions (or subjective bias in general) it seems that FJs see that as an attempt to exploit their easily affected nature, and manipulate them into a particular conclusion. It undermines the purity of the facts for them. Whereas Fi is much more concerned about the purity of the subjective experience (feelings in particular).
    I relate to this in two different ways. In online debates I can feel frustrated when objective information which is the core of the discussion is mixed in with ad hominem attacks because I find it distracting. The same is true of playing in an orchestra. When the conductor is angry, temperamental, and humiliates members, I can't focus on the music. It doesn't motivate me in the least to play better, but just distracts. In those impersonal settings I think I agree with what you are saying, and it does feel like manipulation to me.

    In personal conflict, I will tend to function on two levels. There will be the visceral, emotional, hurt level where I can be crying or upset, but I can also reason and discuss, or when alone, just analyze internally at the same time. If the emotional state originates within me, I can focus on reasoned discussion probably better than average. I tend to dismiss my own emotions in that state as being the same as vomiting or coughing. I see it as just a physiological reaction to something. It is possible that the difference has to do with my level of trust within the dynamic.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #309
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You missed that whole thread I think.

    Basically it seems the NFJs (and perhaps all FJs, or all Fe users?) dislike objective facts being mixed in with emotion-based information. The NFPs (and perhaps all FPs or all Fi users?) can filter through what is objective and what is subjective and take something of value away from it. Like if you have an emotional argument with someone, Fi sifts through what which information is viable and which is biased and/or irrelevant, and find some nugget of truth in it all. However, Fe is more likely to feel affected by other people's emotional states, and this can interfere with their ability to evaluate any objective claims at the same time. For this reason they prefer to separate emotions from factual information in a more defined manner; they like it to fit into one category or the other and for this to be clearly signposted. If someone mixes facts with emotions (or subjective bias in general) it seems that FJs see that as an attempt to exploit their easily affected nature, and manipulate them into a particular conclusion. It undermines the purity of the facts for them. Whereas Fi is much more concerned about the purity of the subjective experience (feelings in particular).
    I wonder if, in a cognitive function light, it doesn't distill down to a misread.

    The FJ,

    Seeking Fe practical mobilization, gets Te crude harshness and Fi impractical idealistic ethics.
    Seeking Ti idealistic logic, gets Fi subjective inaccuracy and Te temporary superficial logistical solution.

    The FP,

    Seeking Fi idealistic ethic, gets Ti impersonal criticality and Fe temporary superficial solution.
    Seeking Te impersonal facilitation, gets Fe personal directives and Ti impractical idealistic logic.

    The key to communication would therefore be in learning to translate 4 ways: Te-Ti, Te-Fe, Ti-Fi, and Fi-Fe. To be willing to remove the idealism in the case of the introverted functions and to apply realism, to remove the realism in the case of the extraverted functions and to apply idealism, to remove the personal perspective in the case of the Feeling functions and apply impersonal perspective, and to remove the impersonal perspective in the case of the Thinking functions and apply personal perspective.

    It would seem this could be part of why FPs and FJs often agree on the surface but then it tends to break down once conversation really gets started, but then can come to mutual conclusions again far down the line.

  10. #310
    Anew Leaf
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    I get tired of the Fe-ers in my life endlessly hinting at me to do something instead of just stating it out right. I suspect they want something from me but I find it so irritating to have to puzzle it out when it would make both of our lives easier if they just spit it out.

    Generalized example:

    Fe-user: Boy this table I am trying to move foolishly all on my own sure is heavy!

    What would work better:

    Fe-user: Hey I need to move a table and I think it will be too heavy for me to move solo, do you mind helping me out for 5 minutes?

    Otherwise it just comes off as a guilt trip designed to infringe upon my freedom to choose since there is usually no escape clause embedded in the hint. It's you do this magical thing I am hinting at or the world is about to end.

    - fin thread -

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