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  1. #291
    Stansmith
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    The only thing that really offends my Fi in a significant way in day-to-day interaction is deliberately making me feel worthless, or witnessing some unusual act of sadism. I simply disassociate/withdraw from most everything else. I'll react internally, but there's not much I'll do about it; for better or for worse, I don't feel personally responsible for it. I've generally never surrounded myself with exceptionally morally questionable people.

  2. #292
    Stansmith
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    An acquaintance of mine introduced me to an ESTP 8w7 Sx/Sp friend of hers who was subtly racist , and although I found a few of her comments a bit off-putting (I certainly wasn't used to it), I found the context of it within her overall personality rather amusing. We certainly wouldn't make good friends, but my perception of her wasn't negative. I tend to feel this way towards most controversial or offensive figures, which I assume is a result of NeTe, as well as Six-ambivalence.

  3. #293
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK. I finally got around to this...

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i understand what you are saying. but i also take multiple opinions in consideration. what i like is to know what everyone's true feelings are, so we can arrive to a compromise. and the feeling i have and that frustrates me is that Fe users are not interested in hearing what everyone's personal feelings are, it's as if they don't consider the depth of feeling, they just brush it right off. and this is what sometimes offends me about Fe, when feelings are just not considered.

    I'll give you an example.
    This is a nice balanced example of things. I see both sides of this. I've been that INFP who is so stuck in an emotional place where pretending not to feel it is unthinkable. The best I can do is shut up about it or walk away. I've also felt pretty upset at having my feelings dismissed like the ENFJ did. I mean both of them had been party to the argument (even though we don't know the particulars about what went on), and yet she was behaving as if the INFP was wholly responsible for the negative atmosphere.

    I also realise that it's a little manipulative for the INFP play the martyr (specifically like she did in the car). I fully admit to having done this in the past. And I know that the ENFJ just getting things going, knowing the INFP would get over it, was probably the best way to deal with the situation as it stood, even if she was nasty and condescending in the way she went about it.

    We’ve talked so much about adjusting to other people’s communication styles so much in this thread but not enough has been said about the need for opposing styles. Sometimes Fi-users need a Fe solution driven response, and sometimes Fe-users need a Fi empathising/perspective shifting response. And sometimes we might not want to be spoken to like that, but it might be what we really need.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    lso, I find it very interesting that you are an Fe-user and So is your last instinct. Southern Kross is an Fi-user and So is her dominant instinct. It would be lovely to understand how these two things interact and how So can "taint" Fi and Sp/Sx "taint" So, so to speak. I mean, I'd love to understand where Fe ends and So begins.
    Anyway, it's just great to talk to you all, thank you
    Yes, we had a conversation about this. Fe and So do have some cross-over elements. For me So makes me a little more conscious of social expectations/etiquette but it doesn't make me good at matching them (nor does it make me like them!). I'm still looking at the social expectation/etiquette through Fi framework; I see them in terms of subjective values made universal. The Fe mode of thought, behaviour and all the other Fe qualities don't really apply to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And, there's the rub. Fi users don't deal in emotional currency. Thus, can feel they are not afforded the benefit of genuine emotional choice in return. Fi doms generally don't use emotions as a means to an end, even if an Fe user interprets it so; a conflict-avoidant Fi user learns not to emote at all or fake it and just tell an Fe person what they want to hear because we can sense the 'right' answer and it saves us a lot of grief. Personally, I think it sucks for both of us that this is the perspective I have to adopt sometimes. (this para edited a bit for clarity.)
    Yes, this is what I was referring to earlier when I talked about how negative use of Fe can be like an emotional transaction. Fi-users really don't like people messing with emotions or trying to use them with a purpose in mind - this is just cold and calculating to us. I'm not necessarily saying that what the Fe user do is wrong, I'm just describing what it can sometimes look like. I certainly see the value in it and know how good it can feel to be on the receiving end of it.

    I also said something about this in that epic INFJ vs. INFP thread. I'm going to be vulgar and quote myself here (this is more specific to the types involved but there are elements that boil down to Fi vs Fe way of thinking):

    INFPs - need to mentally recreate the feelings someone is experiencing. These feelings are unconscious and relate to valid human experience, and must be addressed as such. Consequently, there is no significant judgement attached.
    INFJs - need to mentally recreate the thought-process someone is motivated by. These thoughts are conscious and relate to significant intentions and goals, and must be addressed as such. Consequently judgement must be attached.

    The way to irritate a INFP: use feelings with conscious intentions in mind. The INFP says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as emotions, and used them as means to distort and distract my reasoning. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."

    The way to irritate a INFJ: use a thought process with unconscious intentions in mind. The INFJ says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as logical argument, and distorted and distracted my reasoning with your own personal issues. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."
    The second to last paragraph is really what I'm trying to get at.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    I TOTALLY get though how keeping track can be a real benefit and be useful. I've been a beneficiary of that. I just see so much abuse of the system it's hard to feel positive overall.

    Here's a quick example:


    Fe definitions of our interaction become the expectation and I for one, seeing and experiencing this difficult catch-22 regularly, can come to resent the one-sidedness, and all framed in a way that makes ME, the Fi person, look selfish if I say NO and assert my own boundary. Fe preferences rule and set our interactions. Do you see how one-sided that looks to the Fi POV?
    Oh, I've been in that situation many times. And I know what you mean PB; you just go along with it because it's not that important to have it exactly how you want. I can't say how much that is Fi or whether its just personal values, but this is a way I show respect to others, by pushing my preferences aside and just going along with what they need. It's not important to me to fight every battle, and toss my toys every time things don't go my way. In many ways I feel like it's my duty to get past any irritation I feel, because I feel it's more important that I control myself and my reactions, rather than try to dictate others'. All the same, when people push me to do that too much, or just expect it of me, or abuse my willingness to relent and oblige their preferences, then I start to get resentful. I'm guessing you would have been more OK with what your mum was doing if you felt she was respecting what you were doing on your end of the bargain, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, Fe wants to solve the distressing external situation first, and then process the emotions later (if needed) without external distraction/stress. Fi wants to solve the distressing internal situation first, and then solve the external situation (if needed) without internal distraction/stress.

    Both tend to assume that others take the same approach.

    ?
    This seems accurate.

    For me the stressful part is shifting my thoughts/feelings into the right mindset, which will then enable me to easily take action afterwards. I suppose with Fe, if the situation is dealt with, the emotions will then be easily resolved.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #294
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    The way to irritate a INFJ: use a thought process with unconscious intentions in mind. The INFJ says, "shame on you! You took something so pure and natural as logical argument, and distorted and distracted my reasoning with your own personal issues. This is manipulative and I can no longer trust what you have to say."
    ouoh! what is this? i don't understand any of this. can an INFJ (or @PeaceBaby) explain? And is it also the line of thought of ENFJs!?

  5. #295
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    How different these Fi/Fe threads are from those of Ti/Te Ni/Ne; or should I say Ti/Ni threads?
    The Ti-Ni threads, when they are shitshow flamewars, just consist of Ni calling everyone else an idiot for not recognizing the insight facts at their disposal. Usually the argument Ni is making changes with every post, and very rarely do they actually address anything Ti has pointed out, except to declare it "irrelevant" or lob some kind of ineffectual insult at it.

    Fi-Fe battles usually end in hugs. Ti-Ni battles end with Ti indifference.

    The INTJs that actually engage with Ti instead of merely trying to "beat" it (I mean, I'm usually not even playing to win most of the time.) are incredibly awesome to discuss things with, though. So Ni and Ti don't need to actually be at odds with each other all the time. They can coexist harmoniously.

    Imagine.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #296
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    What bothers me is being criticized by said person with Fe preference for what I said or how I said it, sometimes in combination with what I did. Sometimes it's valid. Other times, it seems trivial.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #297
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The INTJs that actually engage with Ti instead of merely trying to "beat" it (I mean, I'm usually not even playing to win most of the time.) are incredibly awesome to discuss things with, though. So Ni and Ti don't need to actually be at odds with each other all the time. They can coexist harmoniously.
    that is very true to my experience, but i also noticed a pattern when it happened: in areas where the patience required can't be blamed on the other, but rather on the subject matter itself:
    this includes both the patience required of NTPs for Ni to both do it's internal processing and back track to where it came from to understand how it got the idea and understood something, and the patience required of NTJs to watch as Ne-Ti finishes it's last few dozen^x rounds around the possible ways to break down the problem... and both of those seem to come mostly easily when progress - whether it is on a project or in further understanding something - depends on persistent, external factors .

    in forum debates those are the exception to the rule, but in RL (and particularly in work environments), they are the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What bothers me is being criticized helped and guided into better communication by said person with Fe preference for what I said or how I said it, sometimes in combination with what I did. Sometimes it's valid. Other times, it seems trivial.
    criticize implies Fe can be judgmental, which i am sure you had no intention too. you are welcome btw

  8. #298
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    I think the only thing that offends me is when people give me advice on how to fix a problem I don't actually have. Because when I ask for feedback, my emotional gate is wide open.

    "You need to be more honest with yourself bro"
    "You need to stop being so self critical!"

    lol.

    I also hate projection, which falls in line with the first problem.

  9. #299
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    @fidelia haven't been able to read the whole thread just yet...but I liked your posts I've read so far...they've been helpful!

    As for the OP @Lady X I really like this thread!

    I would say that

    1) If I am getting offended, it's more for E6 reasons as a whole, than it would be offending a function of mine

    2) I don't like pressure. (MANY things fit into this category)

    3) I'm much more apt to feel anger and annoyance than feel offended
    _______________

    I'm usually the offender.

    I'm much more apt to be considered a raging bitch, than to consider others that.

    I will be venting and Fi/Fe doms/aux/tert. are much more apt to be taking what I'm saying and how I'm saying it as " it's the end of the world. Stay away from that person." lol

    But once it's out it's out. *shrugs*
    ________________

    So I'm gonna change this to: what type of phrasing gets my attention and most likely makes me annoyed

    And I'm trying not to stereotype here...I certainly don't hold this stuff against anyone, so try to take it more along the lines of wanting feedback from others:

    1) I think it was said some where here... when an Fi user discounts information cause they're biased (Ti does this too, but it's off subject so I wont go there)

    I don't like when I'm explaining a story and I say someone's name, and now all of a sudden we must stop to cater to the Fi users feelings about that person.

    Example:

    -I'll say: "and remember when Rachel did that the o. t. h. e. r........"

    -Fi-user interrupts by *scoffing*. And now for the rest of the gd conversation they have this twisted, bitter, resentful look on their gd face!

    -And this face has now indicated to me that they have not been listening to a word I said -_-...cause they're too caught up on what that jezebel Rachel did to them...or made them feel.

    What the heck do I do in this situation?

    Never bring up Rachel ever again? Talk out the problems that they have with Rachel, so that I can get to my point? Or never talk to you again...cause all I wanna talk about is Rachel? (jk on the latter)

    The subjectivety doesn't bother me...I don't care how the Fi user feels about Rachel...but why are they so stuck on it? And am I REALLY not supposed to discuss this just because THEY don't like it?

    I don't feel like I should have to cater the information dealt...If someone can give me advice on the way I should present the information differently, tha'd be nice.

    Otherwise...I'm going to continue to just avoid certain convos with certain Fi users.

    2) Not even sure if these are Fe user things...I feel like they are more prominant with them though

    a.) I don't think I can tell much to an Fe user.

    I think just from past experience as I get to know the people...I give them tiny bits of information, and I can't trust that they won't tell the whole world.

    Not that I mind self-disclosure, I just would like it to be MYSELF.

    b.) They give me the mommy look.

    Like I did something bad just because I don't agree with them...

    I can get upset at this, cause I can feel the pressure, and cannot feel a way out of it in the situation at the time.

    The look kinda consumes me...I think it relates to that good ol' fear of abandonment crap.

    That's everything I can think of.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  10. #300
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    criticize implies Fe can be judgmental, which i am sure you had no intention too. you are welcome btw
    Haven't you ever heard of constructive criticism? There was nothing to fix in @highlander's remark. His point seemed to be that these Fe comments are not always constructive. Not surprisingly I agree with his perspective, and often find in such situations that people are putting superficiality over substance, or judging the book by its cover.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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