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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In the middle of re-reading it!

    In my experience, I think I irritate Fi users in the following ways (keep in mind that both Fe and Fi are differently flavoured depending on what other functions are mixed in and what position those functions have).
    I'm going to cherry pick through these and provide a few comments. Not many things offend me. The key thing for is respect. If someone communicates to me in a way that doesn't demonstrate it, it can offend me. Outside of that, there isn’t anything I can think of. It all derives from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - unwilling to listen to all people's ideas equally - the speaker and my history with them, and their areas of expertise matter to me as much as the idea
    This one would bother me for multiple reasons. First, if it appeared the person didn't take my input seriously, that would offend me because I wouldn't say something if I hadn't given some thought to it. Secondly, it is very different than my style. I tend to be open to what anybody says. If it's a valid point, I don't care if it comes from a 12 year old. There are a small number of people who I don't have much respect for (that talk out of their ass mostly) where I stop listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - keep wanting to know WHY they are telling me something so I can figure out how to react appropriately. What is the objective? I discovered in one thread recently that they tend to let things evolve, see what parts they have and then make whatever machine they can. I start with the machine I want to create in mind, and then sort the conversation parts according to what is useful in making that machine and what isn't.
    This is interesting because I think I will tell people things for a reason that I can’t fully explain (think Ni) or sometimes just to make conversation – to build a connection with a person – to get to know them. I like getting to know people and learning about them in general. I think sometimes there is not a reason at all – I just feel like chatting about whatever. I wonder if what you are doing might be an exercise in futility with certain people. Take an ESFP or ENFP. Do they have a reason for everything they are telling you? I seriously doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - only want to engage in a conversation if it's going to have some kind of productive outcome
    I do this too though I think less nowadays than I used to. What I increasingly feel is that sometimes it's nice just to experience things and not have any particular purpose though. Just enjoy a conversation for fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - expecting others to read subtext in what I say
    You’ll be let down probably more than the other person will be offended. I'll press a person to be more direct or provide more details in these situations. Otherwise, it will lead to a conjecture that might not be true. I like direct.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    not being willing to resolve conflict or talk about things in the moment because I want time for my emotions to cool so I can regain a more objective perspective.
    That used to drive me crazy though I’m more tolerant of it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    asking questions that may sound intrusive or invasive (to me they are expressions of interest or care).
    I can see that . My view is it’s fine if you self disclose to the same degree and keep what was said in confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - this is maybe Te/Ti but I have a tendency towards walls of text and too many qualifiers and rabbit trails.
    There is always good content though so it doesn’t really bother me unless I’m in a hurry.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - Don't know if this is just me, but since I feel that way and I'm a Fe user I'll just say it. I hate emotional surprises. Even if something is going to be negative, I'll be fine with it, as long as I know what to expect. Fi seems a little more spontaneous and it scares me a bit because I don't do well dealing with my own emotions on the fly. There's too much information to wade through. I'd rather prepare myself ahead of time. I think it seems a bit stiff and stick in the muddish to Fi though.
    The way I experience the other side of this is in two ways. First, it can be good because the calmness from the non-reaction helps to calm me. On the flip side, it can bother me because I’m not a patient person to begin with and I want to express the emotions, engage in a dialogue and get it over with. There are definite pros and cons of the interaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better.
    DO is good in my book. For me, I’m looking for support in the way of empathetic listening, verbal reassurance, building me up, expressing confidence in me, physical touch or lightening the mood with humor. The worst thing is to criticize the behavior, which in the moment is extremely annoying. I recall one small example where someone said something that bothered me several years ago and you left a rep that made me feel less stupid or that other’s might feel the same way I do. It was a little thing that made a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - I also am not sure how to make my needs for verbal appreciation known. When I show appreciation verbally or in writing for most Fi users, it makes them uncomfortable. I think they'd prefer I make them something homemade or something more indirect that shows my thanks instead.
    Verbal appreciation is important for me though I may not act like it. They might downplay the comment or act a little embarrassed but might not be as uncomfortable as you think. You can never go wrong with that kind of thing as far as I’m concerned as long as it’s sincere. I will say in the jobs I’ve had, in employee surveys, the #1 thing people want more of is appreciation for what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    moodiness and inconsistency really makes me uncomfortable. It feels emotionally threatening and undermines my trust. It also feels very personally directed even when it is not. Fi users seem to have a higher tolerance for this.
    I can be moody and do have some understanding of others who are like that. There are limits though and I won’t tolerate certain things. What do you mean by inconsistency? That seems separate from moodiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    not attempting to do something you don't really want to (but don't have any value-based conviction against) for the sake of someone you care about seems like a personal slap in the face to me. I think maybe Fi users see it more separately from the person in question.
    I’m surprised by the reaction you have on this. Good to know. I have to really force myself to do things I don’t want to do. Part of it is getting into habits.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - Fi seems more selective about who it cares about but really goes all out when it does. In some ways, I feel like I want someone to show basic regard for me, even if we are just casual friends, but I need someone who can remain objective when I bring up a situation that's bothering me. I feel like I'm in the middle of a river with a swiftly moving current and the Fi user just jumps in with me instead of throwing me a rope from the safety of the bank and pulling me onto dry land. I need to figure out how to neither feel rebuffed by the emotional distance initially, nor overwhelmed by the emotional intensity afterwards.
    I understand the first sentence. Yes, I’m like that. After that point, I’m kind of getting lost.

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  2. #22
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Your bulleted list above was sensitively formatted and well-thought out from your vantage point. You've really taken a lot of time to put together your thoughts as they've evolved over time, and it's nice to see it in written form.

    And your examples are appreciated too, but they don't work for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It seems like the person is imposing their mood on others in an effort to either get them to do something, or inadvertently polluting the emotionally environment of everyone around them. Whether imposing those emotionas on others is intentionally done or not, it seems selfish and inconsiderate because someone may not have done anything wrong, yet has to deal with behaviour that implies they did until it wears off for the other person. Moodiness, especially in a confined space, (like on a trip) casts a pall over everyone. I find it emotionally threatening because it is unpredictable - no one (including the moody person) knows when it will start or end, and it can manifest itself in a number of ways at any time. I think most people who are moody don't see it as something personally directed, yet it affects the people around them whether or not they intend it to. I think Fe users tend to take it as "You are not doing your job. If you were, I wouldn't feel this way." I think when Fe users act moody, they are (badly) communicating that they are at the end of their string and are upset at someone and expect the person to notice and make adjustments. Fi doesn't seem to operate in the same way. Therefore, they may miss the Fe signals that something is wrong, and they also may not realize how personally some people may take their moodiness.
    Since I feel the same way about moody people polluting the environment I hesitate to think this is about Fe or Fi specifically ... you and I are social doms. I think it's much more about this. From my observations, I see Fe and Fi folks do the polluting equally. As an Fi user, I take it as, "Are you not aware of how you are emotionally affecting everyone around you? Can we deal with how you are feeling so you can enjoy the trip better and not cast negativity on everyone else?"

    An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there. I think Fi is more likely to say, "It's not them. I just don't like hospitals. I'm staying home." whereas Fe reasoning might be more like, "I hate hospitals, but so and so has been there for me in the past and they need me right now because there's no one that can fill that place for them. I guess I'll go, even though I really don't want to." Another example might be going to a musical with your SO. You don't really enjoy musicals and you have no real interest in seeing this one. However, your SO has checked around and they have no one else to go with and they've offered to pay for your ticket. They'd really like to have a shared experience and it matters to them. Fi reasoning might go something like, "I have other things I'd rather do with my evening and I don't even like musicals. Is it such a big deal to go alone?" Fe reasoning might be more like, "They did this this and this that I wasn't interested in. I guess I'll go even though I don't really want to and make it fun for them". Fe focusses more on the fairness aspect and also how it will impact on other people. More priority is given to sacrifice for people closer to them, because more investment has been offered in the past which obligates. (I'm not sure about this, because this might only be NFJ Fe, or it might be more individual than that). Fi is much more about the individual and being authentic to their feelings instead of doing things out of obligation????? (I don't really want to presume to say, because I'm not sure what it's about). I'm not even sure if these examples sound fair to Fi users, but that is the kind of thing I'm thinking of.
    Again, this doesn't work for me either. It's kind of insulting actually to again attribute these kinds of 'selfless' acts to a function. They don't belong in one province or the other. According to your examples, I would SOLIDLY be an Fe user, and so would a bunch of other people. But I'm not. I want to say again it's about both of us being social doms, but I'm not even sure about that, just another rabbit hole to explore.

    Anyways, this thread is just going to piss me off so I'm out. I'm gonna let some new NFP folks hash out the Fi side, see if anything fresh, informative or interesting comes of it.

    Just wanted to reiterate (to the whole thread, not specifically to you fidelia) that BEHAVIOUR cannot (and should not) be directly tracked to FUNCTIONS. It's just ... unreliable. I acknowledge there are patterns and differences that I see play out again and again, but it's not necessarily about how you see someone manifest in the world. There's far more going on than those functional underpinnings.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #23
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh crap! There's too much stuff swirling around!

    Your last one highlander - I guess I'm referring to a couple of threads where the Orobas/Amargith/Peacebabyish Fe/Fi thread people (can't remember who) suggested that when someone is going through a difficult experience, they want to actually jump in there with them and help guide them through it by going through it together. (Bad paraphrase, but that was the general remaining impression I took away). Also, I have noticed my Fi friends or acquaintances feel visibly uncomfortable when I talk to them about something that is going on because they are conscious of how they are feeling at that time and of what reaction I want from them when all I needed was a same place to vent, someone to ask a question or two to say they are interested and a "Man, that sucks!" at the end of it. Sometimes it feels like Fi is very all or nothing rather than halfway. Being a Fe user, I think that my sympathy is spread around fairly diffusely, but unless it is someone extremely close to me, I can be intensely interested and sympathetic without feeling emotionally involved. Therefore it isn't exhausting to listen to someone talk about their problems. It's more like a puzzle I'm trying to solve in my head and try to understand better. I think sometimes Fi can find it more of a burden because there is more onus on them to actively do something to solve the problem (Te at work? I don't know). Maybe this isn't accurate at all, but that's how it looks from the outside to me.

    Oh yeah - it's not that I expect every conversation to have a reason for being. I also enjoy just meeting people and visiting. On the other hand, if someone brings up something negative especially, I want to know what their intent is for bringing it up (do they want me to change something I'm doing? Are they venting? Are they trying to figure out why things are as they are? Are they just getting it all in the open?). I want to be able to respond in a way that is useful for them. I think for Fi users, they tend to think less about the intended outcome and just see where the talking about it takes them.

    Because the outcome isn't always first and foremost with Fi, sometimes they do not project into the future what impact having a conversation might have overall. I want them to consider whether it is more or less productive to bring it up publicly. If it is a private issue, perhaps there is more to be gained by not having an audience and not embarrassing the other person in front of people who may matter to them. On the other hand, maybe it is something that needs to be brought to public attention because of the nature of the issue or the other people who are affected by it. Again, I'm not sure if this is a Ni/Ne thing though. I think Ne tends to brainstorm and see where things go, whereas Ni tends to want to envision things in the future and do damage control before damage occurs. Yeah, it might not be Fi at all.

    As far as not listening to all ideas equally - I wonder if this is more Te/Ti. I think because I'm a Ni dom, I end up with tons of information to wade through. I have to have some way of cutting the information down into something workable. You would use Te to do this. Despite the fact that Ti is kind of an organizing function for me, it still is pretty detailed and there's a lot of stuff that stays included. Therefore Fe is one way of reducing the information down to something usable for me. Usually I go on past experience with that person - do they have expertise in this area? Have their ideas proved to be useful or reliable in the past? Do I trust the person's character, as that will impact the way that they think and interact? Do they have credibility with people whose judgement I trust? I think part of this is the Ni preventative measures kicking in and wanting to be able to predict how things will turn out rather than just going with an idea and improvising as needed. I'm less good with improvising as needed, so I need some way of figuring out whether this is a good or a bad idea for me to adopt, particularly if the stakes are high. With people who have built credibility with me over time, I am much more open to listening to ideas that I would otherwise be resistant to. However, if someone has negative or no history with me and attempts to make me adopt their idea without taking time to explain why it is a good way to go or referencing something that I do trust already, then I am going to take longer to adopt it. Their idea might be great, but if their manner of making it heard isn't, I'm less likely to be open to it. If the person really has lost credibility in my eyes, I probably will dismiss their idea without giving it as much consideration as I should. So, this isn't just a Fe/Fi issue, but more I guess to do with all the functions surrounding it. In past threads I have discovered that a lot of Fi users really bristle at the unfairness of this.

    I think we both have places where we make judgements. I tend to be more rigorous at the front end of things (allowing less in initially unless it fits certain criteria), while many of the Fi users on the Fe/Fi threads we have had make their judgements later on (sometimes backtracking on what seemed to initially be openness at the start). Again, this is clumsily put, but a difference that I've gleaned over the course of several threads.

  4. #24
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There are a bunch of posts I'd like to answer to. Regarding why I feel the way I do about moodiness -

    It seems like the person is imposing their mood on others in an effort to either get them to do something, or inadvertently polluting the emotionally environment of everyone around them. Whether imposing those emotionas on others is intentionally done or not, it seems selfish and inconsiderate because someone may not have done anything wrong, yet has to deal with behaviour that implies they did until it wears off for the other person. Moodiness, especially in a confined space, (like on a trip) casts a pall over everyone. I find it emotionally threatening because it is unpredictable - no one (including the moody person) knows when it will start or end, and it can manifest itself in a number of ways at any time. I think most people who are moody don't see it as something personally directed, yet it affects the people around them whether or not they intend it to. I think Fe users tend to take it as "You are not doing your job. If you were, I wouldn't feel this way." I think when Fe users act moody, they are (badly) communicating that they are at the end of their string and are upset at someone and expect the person to notice and make adjustments. Fi doesn't seem to operate in the same way. Therefore, they may miss the Fe signals that something is wrong, and they also may not realize how personally some people may take their moodiness.

    Re Fi or Fe being selective. I can see what you are talking about and I think we both do this, but in different areas. Working on articulating this properly in my head because I've noticed both things at work in inverse ways.

    An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there. I think Fi is more likely to say, "It's not them. I just don't like hospitals. I'm staying home." whereas Fe reasoning might be more like, "I hate hospitals, but so and so has been there for me in the past and they need me right now because there's no one that can fill that place for them. I guess I'll go, even though I really don't want to." Another example might be going to a musical with your SO. You don't really enjoy musicals and you have no real interest in seeing this one. However, your SO has checked around and they have no one else to go with and they've offered to pay for your ticket. They'd really like to have a shared experience and it matters to them. Fi reasoning might go something like, "I have other things I'd rather do with my evening and I don't even like musicals. Is it such a big deal to go alone?" Fe reasoning might be more like, "They did this this and this that I wasn't interested in. I guess I'll go even though I don't really want to and make it fun for them". Fe focusses more on the fairness aspect and also how it will impact on other people. More priority is given to sacrifice for people closer to them, because more investment has been offered in the past which obligates. (I'm not sure about this, because this might only be NFJ Fe, or it might be more individual than that). Fi is much more about the individual and being authentic to their feelings instead of doing things out of obligation????? (I don't really want to presume to say, because I'm not sure what it's about). I'm not even sure if these examples sound fair to Fi users, but that is the kind of thing I'm thinking of.
    To speak for myself (and assuming you might want my opinion), I'm guilty of both things you mentioned and in fact I do see them as short-comings, which I'm working on to improve. But in my defense, in the first example the way I see it from an Fi point of view is that authenticity is more important than the well-being of the group. I mean, if I was on your side, I'd rather be sure that everybody is the group is happy and nor repressing feelings, than strive for a "fake" group happiness. I'm not saying this is right, just trying to explain my pov.

  5. #25
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There are a bunch of posts I'd like to answer to. Regarding why I feel the way I do about moodiness -

    It seems like the person is imposing their mood on others in an effort to either get them to do something, or inadvertently polluting the emotionally environment of everyone around them. Whether imposing those emotionas on others is intentionally done or not, it seems selfish and inconsiderate because someone may not have done anything wrong, yet has to deal with behaviour that implies they did until it wears off for the other person. Moodiness, especially in a confined space, (like on a trip) casts a pall over everyone. I find it emotionally threatening because it is unpredictable - no one (including the moody person) knows when it will start or end, and it can manifest itself in a number of ways at any time. I think most people who are moody don't see it as something personally directed, yet it affects the people around them whether or not they intend it to. I think Fe users tend to take it as "You are not doing your job. If you were, I wouldn't feel this way." I think when Fe users act moody, they are (badly) communicating that they are at the end of their string and are upset at someone and expect the person to notice and make adjustments. Fi doesn't seem to operate in the same way. Therefore, they may miss the Fe signals that something is wrong, and they also may not realize how personally some people may take their moodiness.
    This is a very interesting point of view. My negative moodiness mostly comes out as being crabby. It could be that I'm tired or frustrated about some thing that has happened or some combination of things that put me in a bad mood. It can happen when I travel - the crushing masses of people and noise can be a trigger. I think you have to take responsibility for your behavior and do understand your point on how it affects people around you. So, I do think the individual has a responsibility to try and manage this. However, some of this is just inborn. I don't want to be in a bad mood. I want to get out of it. The most productive reaction in the heat of the moment for someone I'm with would probably be to do those things I mentioned above in terms of showing support. If you withdraw, it makes it worse because it is a failure to recognize that the person is in distress. It may be helpful to point that out to the moody person the effect they have on others after they have had a chance to calm down - not in an accusatory or critical way - but in an effort to help them. This will likely need to be repeated a number of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there. I think Fi is more likely to say, "It's not them. I just don't like hospitals. I'm staying home." whereas Fe reasoning might be more like, "I hate hospitals, but so and so has been there for me in the past and they need me right now because there's no one that can fill that place for them. I guess I'll go, even though I really don't want to." Another example might be going to a musical with your SO. You don't really enjoy musicals and you have no real interest in seeing this one. However, your SO has checked around and they have no one else to go with and they've offered to pay for your ticket. They'd really like to have a shared experience and it matters to them. Fi reasoning might go something like, "I have other things I'd rather do with my evening and I don't even like musicals. Is it such a big deal to go alone?" Fe reasoning might be more like, "They did this this and this that I wasn't interested in. I guess I'll go even though I don't really want to and make it fun for them". Fe focusses more on the fairness aspect and also how it will impact on other people. More priority is given to sacrifice for people closer to them, because more investment has been offered in the past which obligates. (I'm not sure about this, because this might only be NFJ Fe, or it might be more individual than that). Fi is much more about the individual and being authentic to their feelings instead of doing things out of obligation????? (I don't really want to presume to say, because I'm not sure what it's about). I'm not even sure if these examples sound fair to Fi users, but that is the kind of thing I'm thinking of.
    One interesting thing is that going along with something I really don't want to do can be a trigger for the crabbiness. Going to a hospital isn't a good example. I'm thinking of more discretionary type of things. I hate musicals . So going to one might make me crabby. I recall going to Chicago. I was tired and bored and crabby. I recall falling asleep. One way to address this fairly is to take turns picking things that you really want to do and the other person goes no questions asked. That way it's fair and you can decide to try and enjoy it.

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  6. #26
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby - I realize that any of these types of threads are going to result in fireworks. I spent some time debating about whether I should put any examples up or not, because I am not always 100% sure of what I can attribute differences I see between me and others to and because I sometimes have difficulty coming up with accurate examples. I understand that just because several people do the same thing, it is easy to draw inaccurate parallels. That is part of the reason I put this stuff out there. I want to refine my own understanding of what is going on and determine whether it is function related, type related, or just an individual thing. Obviously I'm going to see things from my own perspective best, and so it may look like I am being insulting or that I am inaccurately portraying a whole group of people. I appreciate the correction. I honestly cannot tell for sure where some landmines are, what it is that we see differently, nor the why that best explains it. I like knowing what others relate to and what doesn't ring true for them.

    Lady X had been reading through an old thread and contacted me to see if I ever had started a thread on one of the ideas I said would be interesting to explore. I hadn't and so I suggested she did and I would try to remember some of the things that I have taken away from these conversations. Of course, I don't feel like my experiences are necessarily reflective of all Fe users and I have a hard time separating out what is specific to me, to my type, or to Fe. Anyway, I appreciate your input and I apologize if I have inadvertently said something unkind, as it was not my intention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    To speak for myself (and assuming you might want my opinion), I'm guilty of both things you mentioned and in fact I do see them as short-comings, which I'm working on to improve. But in my defense, in the first example the way I see it from an Fi point of view is that authenticity is more important than the well-being of the group. I mean, if I was on your side, I'd rather be sure that everybody is the group is happy and nor repressing feelings, than strive for a "fake" group happiness. I'm not saying this is right, just trying to explain my pov.
    I agree with pinkgraffiti. I understand PeaceBaby’s point that not all Fi-users do these things; but there’s definitely a stereotype to the effect that Fi can be moody and a bit self-centered. And as an Fi-user, I tend to think the stereotype has a basis in fact. (It may be a gender thing, by the way. I often see female Fi-users as much more considerate than male Fi-users, to the point where Fi females almost seem to be using Fe.)

    But aside from that, I just wanted to jump in and address one point. As a counterpoint to Fi moodiness, I tend to dislike the idea that Fe-users vent about a problem but then get bent out of shape if I try to help them with that same problem. I dislike it for much the same reason that Fe-users dislike Fi moodiness. That is, when the Fe-user vents, they involve the listener in an emotional situation with their venting but then deny the listener a voice or any option for addressing the situation.

    I understand that Fe-users have fairly specific needs in this particular regard. Still, I just want to make the point that I see Fe venting as a form of selfishness or “emotional pollution” pretty much on a par with Fi moodiness. IOW, Fe venting can be hard to swallow for an Fi-user.

    Other than that, I’m generally fine with the way Fe-users communicate. I have some minor pet peeves, but nothing worth raising.

  8. #28
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is a very interesting point of view. My negative moodiness mostly comes out as being crabby. It could be that I'm tired or frustrated about some thing that has happened or some combination of things that put me in a bad mood. It can happen when I travel - the crushing masses of people and noise can be a trigger. I think you have to take responsibility for your behavior and do understand your point on how it affects people around you. So, I do think the individual has a responsibility to try and manage this. However, some of this is just inborn. I don't want to be in a bad mood. I want to get out of it. The most productive reaction in the heat of the moment for someone I'm with would probably be to do those things I mentioned above in terms of showing support. If you withdraw, it makes it worse because it is a failure to recognize that the person is in distress. It may be helpful to point that out to the moody person the effect they have on others after they have had a chance to calm down - not in an accusatory or critical way - but in an effort to help them. This will likely need to be repeated a number of times.



    One interesting thing is that going along with something I really don't want to do can be a trigger for the crabbiness. Going to a hospital isn't a good example. I'm thinking of more discretionary type of things. I hate musicals . So going to one would might make me crabby. I recall going to Chicago. I was tired and bored and crabby. I recall falling asleep. One way to address this fairly is to take turns picking things that you really want to do and the other person goes no questions asked. That way it's fair and you can decide to try and enjoy it.
    Very helpful on both counts! I think part of the distress for me that comes from moodiness is that I am not sure how to deal with it. Something like this at least gives some tools for addressing it in a more proactive (and hopefully pleasant) way.

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I agree with pinkgraffiti. I understand PeaceBaby’s point that not all Fi-users do these things. But there’s definitely a stereotype to the effect that Fi can be moody and a bit self-centered. And as an Fi-user, I tend to think the stereotype has a basis in fact. (It may be a gender thing, by the way. I often see female Fi-users as much more considerate than male Fi-users, to the point where Fi females almost seem to be using Fe.)

    But aside from that, I just wanted to jump in and address one point. As a counterpoint to Fi moodiness, I tend to dislike the idea that Fe-users vent about a problem but then get bent out of shape if I try to help them with that same problem. I dislike it for much the same reason that Fe-users dislike moodiness. That is, when the Fe-user vents, they involve the listener in an emotional situation with their venting but then deny the listener a voice or any option for addressing the situation.

    I understand that Fe-users have fairly specific needs in this particular regard. Still, I just want to make the point that I see Fe venting as a form of selfishness or “emotional pollution” pretty much on a par with Fi moodiness. IOW, Fe venting can be hard to swallow for an Fi-user.

    Other than that, I’m generally fine with the way Fe-users communicate. I have some minor pet peeves, but nothing worth raising.
    Excellent! This is good to know. In past threads, Udog has suggested that explaining what a service the other person is doing simply by listening and asking a few questions is great and also that it is important to thank the person for doing so when they have. (Oh yeah, I think EJCC also said that in relation to her INFJ mother's venting). It does serve a really important purpose. Sometimes I think Fe users forget to do this because they do not feel at all emotionally distressed (or even a need to fix things) when listening to venting. I think the ENFJs have more of a compulsion to offer solutions, but even then, I don't think it is something where they feel obligated to solve the problem for the person because they realize that the person just needs to relieve the pressure they are feeling so they can get down to dealing with the problem. It doesn't feel like emotional pollution, because the Fe venter has indicated that the problem is not with the hearer. I think I've gotten better at picking who to vent to, so that I am not needlessly frustrating both parties, and also better at stating what I am looking for from the other person and recognizing that it might be more taxing than I naturally would have thought of it. In a domestic situation, would you prefer for the person to 1) pick someone else to vent to 2) vent, but state what they need from you and recognize that it involves some sacrifice on your part 3) vent, but be more open to looking at your perspective? To me, venting is also an expression of trust in the other person. I wouldn't tell them about my problem unless I trusted that they would want to know and unless I wanted them to be a part of my inner emotional landscape. Only after repeated misunderstandings and problems between us from me doing so would I quit, but then I would feel like I was walling off a piece of myself from them, which would also cause me some distress.

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I was just thinking about Fe need for verbal appreciation. I think for me, the reason why I need it is that I want feedback for what I'm doing that works. I do need to know on some inherent level that I am valued by someone whom I really care about, but it is also about figuring out what to do that makes me need that.

    Fi users, what kinds of Fe expressions of care would you find stifling or frustrating? What do you generally find Fe users do that makes you feel more supported or understood?

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