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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    I have a question to both fps and fjs.

    When witnessing a statement/comment by someone you know/friend/acquaintance that you believe is offensive:

    How do you react?
    Do you judge that person by the comment that person made? Or
    By the history of experiences you've had with that person?
    Would you give that person time to explain themselves? Or
    Do you get further offended when that person tries to defend themselves?
    Is a sincere apology accepted? Or
    Does it allow you to further feel as though the horse you ride get taller?
    Do you feel good about yourselves when you judge another?
    And do you consider yourself tolerant? (Tolerance plays a major role in kindness/harmony/acceptance I believe.)
    I react just like I do here pretty much. I typically interpret things based on what I know of the person and how I think it was meant. I prefer blunt. I prefer to be friendly and just open... But that would depend on how offended I was. Usually I get more offended or bothered if what you said makes me rethink everything I thought I knew about you... Like this doesn't match with that and wow does that bother me.

    I truly do prefer not to have to be delicate. I value my relationships so much more with people that can handle a bit of harshness without taking it too personally.

    I don't like hostile tho... I can handle matter of fact blunt comments but I don't like when people get super pissy about it because then I'm reacting to the out of proportion emotion not the words.

    So you can say you were such a bitch just then!!

    And if you say it like dude I'm just telling you
    Or shocked and just omg wtf
    Or you can be all whiney and/ or hostile and that will make me go grrrr right back.

    Wait... I feel like I'm not answering the actual question right now. Sec.

    Hmm... No I don't feel better about myself. That has nothing to do with it.

    I just treat people like I want to be treated most the time. Yes I'd let someone explain... I'd ask them to.

    I don't really feel like I'm super easy to offend.

    But maybe I am I don't know. It's too early for your questions.

  2. #282
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's something interesting - I guess it had never occurred to me that Fi users didn't realize that redirection is assumed and welcomed. Would verbalizing that out loud be helpful (in addition to trying to direct less?)
    Yeah, definitely! And just trying to notch it back a little both in terms of intensity and speed to let us have time/space to think. The ideas themselves are often helpful but it's a hard process for us to engage with, it seems, since it works in a different "direction" than we're used to.

    My ESFJ mom tends to do it to the point where I just am like "Mom that sounds great, I'll definitely try that!" and then gently change the subject because she gets so into her idea of how things should go that it's really hard for me to figure out how to voice how and why that's not what I want to do without making it sound like I don't appreciate her ideas. Which, @fidelia, if you could recommend any good suggestions for how to redirect without being unfriendly, that would be fantastic! Though of course sometimes Mom comes up with the PERFECT solution, and she's very helpful overall. It's also fallout of her being a 2 and getting a lot of satisfaction out of fixing others' problems, not just a Fe thing, I think.

    I also eventually spoke to my ISFJ about not speaking in directives at me, because it felt like I was being ordered around, and he explained that it was his way of giving me suggestions. He still does it, though less forcefully now, and since I understand what he's doing it's so much easier for me to take them as ideas and recommendations instead of him pushing me to do things.

    In reflection, the whole kind of thing is really silly because I like being in line with their directives - it gives me satisfaction to have my mom or boyfriend recommend something to me and me follow through with it and have it improve my life. For one, of course, it makes it less stressful for me since I didn't have to come up with that idea, and two, it makes me feel cared for and like they understand me. I assume that's how Fe is supposed to work, but it just takes a little mutual understanding, I think, to be able for it to translate readily across Fe-Fi lines

    I'm not sure about what to do with that, as I know Fi users don't like Fe "nudges" and they also don't want to be told a prescribed thing to do, as it would be inauthentic, yet I've heard many express that it seems like there is a handbook somewhere that they failed to receive and they would like to be told what is expected.
    I think the difference might be in part that FPs tend to lay out information as their way of helping. I totally empathize with wanting a handbook. I do too. But not really a handbook of directions, but one of information. If I know enough information, then I can decide what to do based on my Fi framework. I think the problem with Fe directives coming at the Fi framework is that JiPe has to sort out the Pe information and then run it through the Ji filter. We're can't just take the JePi and see the Pi and reflect back Je like another Fe dom/aux could because it's in a different "language" than what we're used to. If we're just expected to act according to JePi, not only do we feel forced, since we haven't had the opportunity to make our own Ji judgment, but we also don't understand because we didn't get any Pe info, either.

    My ESFJ mom is actually pretty good at translating for me. For example, we were recently invited to a charity event. She said, "I was thinking you could wear your green dress", which instantly puts the image in my head of my floor-length, high-neck, sleeveless green gown. That tells me a wealth of P information: fancy but not ultra-fancy, a little modest but not restrictively so, night clothes. Very useful, because I could take that raw "green dress" information right into Pe and Ji. I am still prone to thinking that means she wants me to wear that dress specifically - Si fail ahoy - but in that case I ended up wearing an ivory lace top and dark blue linen skirt and mom told me she loved my outfit. And I did have to fall back on my own Pi, which is trickier for me to use.

    Alternatively, it would have been easier and more natural to me to just be given the event invitation. Then I would see that it's on heavy paper, color printed, upscale restaurant, nighttime event, silent auction, and so on, and dress according to all those Pe cues.

    So my suggestion would be just to provide an FP with background information that would help them understand the nature of a situation. An NFP, at least.

  3. #283
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I completely understand. This is much like how I feel when people want to prescribe how I should think about things or rush me through a thinking process. I think I encountered that in one thread where a lot of people perceived the INFJs to be on wobbly, unhappy ground, when they were only seeking out more information to make sense of things, not actually feeling confrontation at all. I was surprised to find myself getting a bit prickly even at people I liked and respected, because it felt that they were being too prescriptive about how I should arrive at the conclusions I needed. I would prefer to be given the information they've gleaned out of thinking about something a certain way so that I can customize it, instead of being asked to use a process that isn't as effective for me.

    So regarding the handbook thing - what is the kind of information that would be most helpful to you? I certainly don't want to tell people what to do. At the same time, sometimes it seems to me that there are general underlying principles that might be useful for Fi users to sometimes consider that would allow them to be heard better or avoid offending unknowingly. If the principle were to be explained, would that feel intrusive or helpful? Is that just trying to impose Fe on someone else, or is it offering a perspective that might be usable to them?

    Regarding redirection - I think that you first look for areas of commonality that you can agree with. Then ask some questions or point out the parts that don't make sense to you. You can also ask what the underlying principle the person sees in that course of behaviour is. Depending on the Fe user, it may all go a bit differently. For example, with my ENFJ mother, she gets impatient when I want to just express frustration about something and she starts telling me what I should do before she understands that I'm just trying to clear away emotional debris. Then when I explain why I don't want to take that course of action, she says, "Well DON'T do it then". I'm learning to try to explain first the reason why I am communicating certain information (sometimes I want to vent, sometimes I just need a check over of my plan, sometimes I need to brainstorm a little, sometimes I want to see if my reaction is off or in line with how she'd see it, sometimes I truly am seeking guidance). When I don't do that, I often end up very frustrated and she is another Fe user (and one who thinks pretty similarly to me, no less!). I've found that all Fe user types are flavoured just a little bit differently, even though there are some overarching principles in common. Is that of any help?

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I completely understand. This is much like how I feel when people want to prescribe how I should think about things or rush me through a thinking process. I think I encountered that in one thread where a lot of people perceived the INFJs to be on wobbly, unhappy ground, when they were only seeking out more information to make sense of things, not actually feeling confrontation at all. I was surprised to find myself getting a bit prickly even at people I liked and respected, because it felt that they were being too prescriptive about how I should arrive at the conclusions I needed. I would prefer to be given the information they've gleaned out of thinking about something a certain way so that I can customize it, instead of being asked to use a process that isn't as effective for me.
    Yeah exactly. I think that can be a P-dom commonality, too. TBH I think in general overall everyone's desires in interaction are mostly similar - respect, time to process, space to act, assumption that they are not being malicious, communication in a language they understand - it's just that we all have those little oddities that are different, like what we tend to look at first or how we'd rather decide, etc.

    So regarding the handbook thing - what is the kind of information that would be most helpful to you? I certainly don't want to tell people what to do. At the same time, sometimes it seems to me that there are general underlying principles that might be useful for Fi users to sometimes consider that would allow them to be heard better or avoid offending unknowingly. If the principle were to be explained, would that feel intrusive or helpful? Is that just trying to impose Fe on someone else, or is it offering a perspective that might be usable to them?
    Personally, as Ne dom, I love hearing principles explained. That is super helpful to me. I'd love to expand more but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good example situation at the moment. I'll try to think of one but in the meantime please let me know if you have one or two in mind, because I'd be more than happy to flesh them out!

    Regarding redirection - I think that you first look for areas of commonality that you can agree with. Then ask some questions or point out the parts that don't make sense to you. You can also ask what the underlying principle the person sees in that course of behaviour is. Depending on the Fe user, it may all go a bit differently. For example, with my ENFJ mother, she gets impatient when I want to just express frustration about something and she starts telling me what I should do before she understands that I'm just trying to clear away emotional debris. Then when I explain why I don't want to take that course of action, she says, "Well DON'T do it then". I'm learning to try to explain first the reason why I am communicating certain information (sometimes I want to vent, sometimes I just need a check over of my plan, sometimes I need to brainstorm a little, sometimes I want to see if my reaction is off or in line with how she'd see it, sometimes I truly am seeking guidance). When I don't do that, I often end up very frustrated and she is another Fe user (and one who thinks pretty similarly to me, no less!). I've found that all Fe user types are flavoured just a little bit differently, even though there are some overarching principles in common. Is that of any help?
    Yes, that is very helpful! Thank you!!

    I think I tend to want to start with why I don't feel like it's quite right so I'll try voicing the commonalities first. Prefacing with my goal would probably help a lot, too. I've noticed I don't tend to do that and then I get frustrated when the other person is directing the parts I've already figured out. I've noticed that of the ISFJ, ESFJ, and ENFJ I talk to on a hyper-frequent basis, all of us like venting emotions with others and seek solutions less than just safe space to let that emotion out.

  5. #285
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The reason for starting with commonality first is that it is a way of building common ground with the other person and establishing that you are not opposing them as a person. Then if you can point out where your thinking starts to diverge and tell how it looks from your perspective, it allows the other person to be less prescriptive. They may end up asking you some why questions, but if you realize that they are not challenging the validity, but actually complimenting you by trying to understand your point of view, then it makes it easier for them to see your perspective and give you what you need.

    Also keep in mind that Fe is purpose and action oriented. So, if you are finding that someone is being too prescriptive or doing too much, if you can redirect them by telling them what would be more helpful to you and why, they often will be happy to oblige. This may seem selfish, as you are the one in distress and yet you have to be thinking of how to make them feel more useful. On the other hand, (at least in my case), I've found that being misunderstood or overly prescribed can be more distressing to me, so sometimes it is worth the bit of effort it takes to redirect them to something that would be more useful.

  6. #286
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The reason for starting with commonality first is that it is a way of building common ground with the other person and establishing that you are not opposing them as a person. Then if you can point out where your thinking starts to diverge and tell how it looks from your perspective, it allows the other person to be less prescriptive. They may end up asking you some why questions, but if you realize that they are not challenging the validity, but actually complimenting you by trying to understand your point of view, then it makes it easier for them to see your perspective and give you what you need.
    It makes a lot of sense... in my sorority we used to do something called "pro-con-pro" which was where you would give feedback in the format of something positive, a constructive criticism, and then something positive again. Then even when you were getting criticized it would be couched in two nice things and would feel far less upsetting. When people did it well it felt like they were on your side and trying to help you see something you'd missed, rather than down-rating you.

  7. #287
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

    I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view.

  8. #288
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

    I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view and building trust?

    I'm not saying that all Fi users do this. Would it be fair to say though that with Fi, the focus is more on the immediate and on the individual, rather than on the long term and how it affects everyone.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think for a Fe user it also says that you are being solution oriented. Sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to be a specific outcome intended) when Fi users are vocal in their opposition, it can feel like they would like to shut other people's attempts down without offering something helpful in it's place (particularly when done publicly and at the height of emotion where exact accuracy is not the first aim). I remember when I first became a mod, becoming very frustrated that people would voice all kinds of possibilities that mods were acting dishonestly and making blanket statements about all mods when they were feeling frustrated with one person at that point in time. By airing it publicly, not only did it feel like a huge lack of recognition of all the times that mods had gone out of their way for that person, but it also implied that they all had no sense of integrity (character attack). Especially when there were readers who didn't have the same knowledge base with which to form their own opinion, that seemed especially unfair and very personal, although in retrospect, I don't think it was meant that way at all. Those members felt like I was trying to discourage honest discussion and maybe even was covering something up, when it had more to do with the lack of precision in criticism, recognition of character or overall goodwill, and lack of consideration of the extra work it created for us long after the initial discussion was over.

    I realize that this isn't really a fair assessment, as sometimes those feelings need to be out in the open before you know what you have to work with. However, trying to think in terms of proactivity in that regard means a lot to Fe users and will allow them to remain much more open to considering your point of view and building trust?

    I'm not saying that all Fi users do this. Would it be fair to say though that with Fi, the focus is more on the immediate and on the individual, rather than on the long term and how it affects everyone.
    Yeah, for sure. I think also more the "ideal" than the individual, honestly. Like to some extent I don't even think in terms of people, but in terms of what should happen in a perfect world, and then only process individual reactions later.

    It makes me think, yesterday I was doing a particularly hard job at work, and I haven't had much experience at it, so I was really having to push myself. I'm usually fast enough at my job to be able to do it as well as help other people out, so naturally people were coming to me with questions, like they often do. While I was happy to help them, I also really wanted to leave, so I tried to just give them enough info to get them started, and then sent them on their way. Eventually I got so fed up with this one girl coming to me about small issues she knew how to fix herself, and just whining incessantly (she's a good bit younger and I've sort of been mentoring her), and then as the kicker, she teasingly me, well when are you going home, geez - and I said loudly, "Well I've been trying, but people keep bothering me about everything!" It wasn't really my best moment, obviously, and mostly it was meant to be a pointed comment to her. Biut I noticed a second later that the poor new kid who was closing the department must have heard me, and he'd been asking me questions too, so I went over and apologized, told him please not to feel like that comment was directed towards him, it was just an expression of frustration at the other girl. More than that honestly it was the vocalization of an overall exasperation that even though I tend to give a lot of my time to others, those same people not only didn't give me time to finish my own work without constant interruption - a common courtesy - but they also didn't even seem to notice that I was having a hard time. To me it seemed like not only were they not being grateful of the help I regularly give that is above and beyond my job duties, but they weren't even giving me the common courtesy of letting me finish my own work. It felt like "I do all this for you, and you won't even give me basic respect, much less will you reciprocate". And then on top of it all, this girl displays the sublime ignorance of clearly not even noticing that I had that much work that day, too, even though I'd told her several times. She was just so absorbed in her own stuff.

    And yeah, it was total imprecise TeFi venting, nothing particularly eloquent or illuminating, for sure. I didn't really even think about other people, it was totally just about my feelings and how I was really frustrated about being treated in a totally unappreciative way. That's the downside of Fi, I think, it processes way more in "I feel this because of this" instead of "these people will feel this if I say this".

  10. #290
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I was wondering if this is also true of Fi and Fe. If Fi looks for core, universal principles, while Fe looks at the details of interaction in real time.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I think in extreme cases what I have quoted could lead to a lot of issues for Fe and in extreme cases it - it being the opposite - could lead to a lot of benefits for Fi. However these I have noticed only in extreme cases.

    How different these Fi/Fe threads are from those of Ti/Te Ni/Ne; or should I say Ti/Ni threads?

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