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  1. #261
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Absolutely, I agree with you on all points. I don't like that aspect of Fe either, and I've seen that at times, even in myself.

    I wouldn't say that when I give, it is with a constant tally in mind. It's only after a pattern of disrespect emerges (as in the case of your sister and her friend) that the aspect of unfairness becomes an issue for me. When I accept help from someone, it is with the understanding that it came at some sacrifice for them. If I feel that they are offering help for selfish reasons, I don't feel any compunction about refusing it, because I don't wish to be in that person's debt. I also wouldn't allow someone to pay for even coffee for me if I thought they could misconstrue it as romantic obligation when I had no interest, because I want my intentions to be clear.

    Maybe the distinction between the two approaches is that everything carries with it a degree of outcome/meaning/intention for me. Just as conversations all are going somewhere specific (to Fe sensibilities), it feels to me that interactions also convey intention/commitment/investment/expectation, and so I am careful about who I give that to and who I accept it from.

    Does that make any sense?
    So tell me if this is right or not. Could you say that Fe selfless giving comes when they trust that the other person will "pay them back eventually"? In other words the connection between the investment and the return isn't overtly stated, the return is not required to be immediate (or even relatively immediate - like within the short-medium term), and the return can be in more abstract terms (ie. it can come in other forms). I have noticed this sort of thing with Fe users (well, I registered it unconsciously).
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  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Sorry to dredge things up again but I'm just going through some of the posts made in the last week.


    I totally see what you're saying and the value of this principle, but this is can so cold to Fi users.

    Give and take is certainly part of all types, I just think it works a little differently. Bear with me, here and I'll try to explain how and the pros and cons of both, using this example:

    My ESTJ sister is very generous with her money and often when she goes out with several friends she will buy a round of drinks, without any prompting from others. She never keeps score about whether her friends have bought her an equal amount of drinks. She realises some of her friends are poorer than her and doesn't expect anything much from them. She 'invests' without expectation of return. She told me, in not so many words, that she feels that giving and sharing is a way to show that she cares about her friends. However, she does think the basic courtesy would be for her friends to occasionally return the favour, and buy her a drink. One of her friends (a ESFP) doesn't do this, and avoids doing it in a rather underhand manner. And it really bothers my sister (along with another xSFP friend who agreed that it wasn't right either), not because it's unfair per se, but because it shows a lack of respect for her. The ESFP taking from her and exploiting her generosity feels like an insult to my sister. The selfishness of that, and the fact that the ESFP is taking advantage of her, that's what upsets her, not the lack of reciprocity itself. She doesn't care that it's unfair; she cares that her friend doesn't feel she's worth kindness. Does that make sense?

    Now you can see this is between two Fi users. And what the difference comes down to is personal values about what is right in the situation. It shows that great generosity can come out of Fi and great selfishness. Now I don't think the ESFP's personal values are right. I could see how she would fail to recognise her behaviour as wrong, but that doesn't excuse it. She needs to see the sort of attitude towards her friends that her behaviour is indirectly communicating. To me, my sister's kindness is the sort I really value. I would say it's the Fi ideal in giving; it's doing something kind for the sake of it, as an end in itself. I acknowledge there are problems with this approach: it's inconsistent (not everyone will choose to participate in it equally or regularly - as per the example), it's not always a viable option, it relies on people to do this of their own volition (without social expectation or prompting), and it doesn't build interpersonal relationships like Fe does (because there's no back and forth to bond people).

    Now correct me if I'm wrong but, Fe uses reciprocity so that people can feel connected. It's to establish a sense of security with the people you care about; knowing that they will have their back. It's more consistent and reliable. The main problem with the Fe approach can be in the expectation of return. In the Fi view of it: it can be like kindness comes with strings attached. This can create a lot of resentment, because it suggests that a gift is offered with false intentions. It communicate to Fi-users that it was not offered in order to give pleasure to your friend (ie. as an end in itself), but so that you can get something out of it. Of course, this is not always the case, and this is not really how Fe is meant to work ideally. And I've seen enough of Fe generosity myself and know how incredibly warm, kind, altruistic it is. But my point is that sometimes giving can be a selfish act too, just as much as taking and not giving in return can be.
    correct me if i am misunderstanding this, but your saying that:

    - with Fe someone is offering a gift knowingly that they are expecting a return...

    - with Fi someone is offering a gift genuinely not expecting anything in return....
    - only to later feel exploited and resentful if it isn't returned in some way.

    i'll be honest, to me this depiction sounds like the difference is that the Fi user wasn't aware of how they are going to feel about it in the future... which actually relates to some extent to the earlier story of @pinkgraffiti's ENFJ/INFP couple - there too it seems like the INFP was within what she was feeling in the moment and feeling sucky so she wanted to stop whatever they where doing (going on a trip), while the ENFJ was thinking how the future actions and change of environment are going make her INFP SO feel better.

    following these examples, Fe is starting to sound more and more like Te for emotional dynamics... masterplanning the desired emotional future.

    new depiction of Fe coming to mind:

  3. #263
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i'll be honest, to me this depiction sounds like the difference is that the Fi user wasn't aware of how they are going to feel about it in the future... which actually relates to some extent to the earlier story of @pinkgraffiti's ENFJ/INFP couple - there too it seems like the INFP was within what she was feeling in the moment and feeling sucky so she wanted to stop whatever they where doing (going on a trip), while the ENFJ was thinking how the future actions and change of environment are going make her INFP SO feel better.
    wait. it was more or less this, but you didn't get (or i didn't explain well enough) something about this story: the INFP was not in a bad mood by herself and thus being "winny"; she had had a big argument with the ENFJ. when I arrived, the ENFJ was pretending that the argument had not existed, whilst the INFP could not move past it before her feelings were addressed and the problem "sorted".

    it's what we've been discussing before: after an argument, an Fe-user will want to go past the feelings to solve the problem, and may discuss left-over feelings later, but not necessarily; in contrast, the Fi-user will want to solve the argument by first going through the feelings, discussing them, and will not go into action (in my friends case, on a trip) without first establish a harmony of feelings.

  4. #264
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    correct me if i am misunderstanding this, but your saying that:

    - with Fe someone is offering a gift knowingly that they are expecting a return...

    - with Fi someone is offering a gift genuinely not expecting anything in return....
    - only to later feel exploited and resentful if it isn't returned in some way.
    Not quite, but nice try.

    I'm trying* to distinguish between Fe being offended by unequal reciprocity (ie. the action, or lack thereof - relating to fairness and consistency of behaviour) and Fi being offended by what the unequal reciprocity signals about the mindset of the individual(s) involved. It seems to me that Fe often takes comfort in the action, in and of itself, but Fi really only looks at external behaviour as a means to understand internal states. My sister doesn't give a damn about getting a free drink. She does get upset that she has a friend who has no qualms about endlessly treating her like a doormat. She would feel the same unease if the friend had discovered her annoyance and bought her a drink simply to give the appearance of being a good and generous friend. I think that with Fi, you could say the 'why' of any action matters more than the 'what' (with the reverse being true of Fe). Similarly, Fe cares more about the 'why' of purpose, not the 'what' (with the reverse being true of Fi).

    And for the record, I don't mean to say that Fi never gives without having ulterior motive. I just meant that the ideal is giving without ulterior motives. Of course, it doesn't always work out like that.

    *this is just from what I've gathered. I'm still figuring all this out.
    i'll be honest, to me this depiction sounds like the difference is that the Fi user wasn't aware of how they are going to feel about it in the future... which actually relates to some extent to the earlier story of pinkgraffiti's ENFJ/INFP couple - there too it seems like the INFP was within what she was feeling in the moment and feeling sucky so she wanted to stop whatever they where doing (going on a trip), while the ENFJ was thinking how the future actions and change of environment are going make her INFP SO feel better.

    following these examples, Fe is starting to sound more and more like Te for emotional dynamics... masterplanning the desired emotional future.

    new depiction of Fe coming to mind:
    There may be some degree of truth in this. Fi dislikes it when there is a plan behind altruistic behaviour. I'm very wary about people doing something good with an eye on how well it could turn out for them later on. I also agree about what you said about Fe and emotional dynamics. Whether Fi is just more in the moment emotionally and Fe thinks more of the future, I can't say for sure - I would have to test that theory further. Can it be said of TJs and TPs too? I don't know...

    I'm planing to write about pinkgraffiti's example, but I haven't got around to it yet, so I will delay comment on that.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  5. #265
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    I don't know if this is Fi or Fe or whatever but I hate when people indicate I should do something by expressing the negative expectation that I won't do it. If you want help with something, just ask me. I will likely say yes. I won't show a lot of enthusiasm about it because that's not my style (and I especially won't show enthusiasm if it's not a particularly pleasant task) but I will help nevertheless.

    Just don't look at me in a hang dog way and say "Oh, I don't expect you'll help me with XYZ" in a long-suffering tone. I'm not going to feel guilty in the least about saying no.

  6. #266
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    following these examples, Fe is starting to sound more and more like Te for emotional dynamics... masterplanning the desired emotional future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Whether Fi is just more in the moment emotionally and Fe thinks more of the future, I can't say for sure - I would have to test that theory further.
    I think so. Whenever I think about Feely stuff, I always think about the consequences of what I will say, and how it will make people feel. I've been in too many situations where someone will go,

    "It's ok, you can share whatever is on your mind here. No judgement. Sharing things brings people closer together. You can trust me."

    "**************"

    [paraphrased] "Well, that's a fucking weird thing to say. Why are you telling me that? That's so off from the way I experience the world, you're kind of a weirdo. " [/paraphrased]

    My internal monologue after the fact: "Well, so much for a judgement free zone."
    The end result is that I come to the conclusion that was right not to be reluctant to say anything. I take experiences like that, and I build on them. Like I've learned to not take people's claims of being open-minded at face value. If I don't think that the person in question is realizing that "whatever is on my mind" can include icky stuff like insecurities they might not have personally experienced, I'm going to just try and find some way around the demand for openness.


    I hate saying things like "you can share anything with me" because I know that's a promise I might not be able to keep. And I'd rather not hurt the other person by breaking promises.

    And I find it baffling how Introverted Feeling doesn't seem to think of things in this way, how it seems to have a really hard time seeing how this sort of stuff reverberates. (Because I do get the sense that Introverted Feeling has a hard time with that.)
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #267
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think Mane's statement is on to something, at least for me. I mean, when I do keep track part of the reason I do is that I don't want to start feeling resentful towards the other person, nor do I want them to feel resentful towards me.

    It is a preventative effort so that we can carry on with a positive relationship. For example, I used to live in side by side apartments with someone I was dating and so once a week we would go to the grocery store and buy water. We took turns paying. I was careful to make sure that I more than paid for my fair share and so it irked me no end when he would gleefully say, "It's your turn to buy water! You have to pay for water today!" I felt like he was reminding me over and over because he wasn't sure that I'd do it, when I had never shown signs of trying to get out of it before and had gone out of my way to ensure that he wouldn't feel like he was getting the worse end of the bargain.

    Trying to plan ahead emotional is also the same reason I don't let people in to my emotional world immediately, because once there, I usually give people pretty free reign. If I can see something is going to go somewhere bad or that someone would introduce an amount of needless drama to my life that I don't want, I will take preventative measures to just not even start down that road. I wonder how much of that is Ni thrown in though. I always assumed it was, but Mane and msg are not NFJs, so now I'm not sure.

  8. #268
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's something interesting - I guess it had never occurred to me that Fi users didn't realize that redirection is assumed and welcomed. Would verbalizing that out loud be helpful (in addition to trying to direct less?)
    The most useful thing I think you can do when talking to a fi user is to realize they would rather you be blunt about your expectations rather than assume they're purposely not giving them or hiding information from you.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  9. #269
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    That was rushed because I have to go. Ill expand later.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #270
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think maybe Fe blunt and Fi blunt look different. I've been what I thought was very blunt times but without success. In the four people I can think of though, they also are pretty non-communicative about emotion generally due to childhood factors so that may throw things off a bit.

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