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  1. #231
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    ^how can we translate this into an analogy similar to the Fe-boat situation? I want our own Fi analogy

    I'm in the river and I want to swim on my own but you're throwing flowers at me and it's making me drown? sucks :/

  2. #232
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    not taking into account all the variables is one. I don't like to pounce until i know everything i can.I mean I'll ask questions and have suspicions, but I won't come to a conclusion until after i get the full picture. maybe that's a p thing

  3. #233
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know the situation exactly, Amargith. However, I think that because Fe tends to be action-oriented, if you want to head that sort of stuff off, you might have to come up with something the person can DO that you would genuinely find helpful. It might also help if you explain the WHY of why you wouldn't find the suggested thing helpful and how it might actually impede you getting on with things.

    I realize it's not perfect, but in some ways, you just have to weigh which is worse - feeling like you just murdered a family of kittens, or having to explain what you would like instead (even if it is just to be left alone). The more detail you can give, the better. Generally, people like nice feedback and don't go out of their way to get poor feedback, but in this kind of case, you need to provide an active substitute for what they want to do for you. I think Fe users just have a hard time not putting themselves in your position and really believing that you want to be left alone (if they did that it would usually mean they really, really aren't okay, especially if it's like that over the course of months and a caring person would push a little to help them). This is their version of a Fi user jumping into my emotional river when I'm upset to figure out how they would feel and what they would do, when I really just want them to throw me a rope.
    well when it's reversed...and we're in the river...your rope throwing keeps distracting me...hitting me in the face and makes it harder to swim and find my way out. if i want a rope i promise i will ask for it.

    i think that's what people don't understand. like you think we just don't want to bother you but really...we just might not know what we need yet but if we find we need something that you could help with we will ask. we're not being coy.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #234
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ^how can we translate this into an analogy similar to the Fe-boat situation? I want our own Fi analogy

    I'm in the river and I want to swim on my own but you're throwing flowers at me and it's making me drown? sucks :/
    haha funny...just said the same thing
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #235
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    well when it's reversed...and we're in the river...your rope throwing keeps distracting me...hitting me in the face and makes it harder to swim and find my way out. if i want a rope i promise i will ask for it.

    i think that's what people don't understand. like you think we just don't want to bother you but really...we just might not know what we need yet but if we find we need something that you could help with we will ask. we're not being coy.
    yes! fantastic!

  6. #236
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    So, Fe wants to solve the distressing external situation first, and then process the emotions later (if needed) without external distraction/stress. Fi wants to solve the distressing internal situation first, and then solve the external situation (if needed) without internal distraction/stress.

    Both tend to assume that others take the same approach.

    ?

  7. #237
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    ^Yes, that's what it seems like to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Hell, I've had a situation where an Fe-user close to me felt the need to do something for me so she offered it repeatedly. I always declined coz I was...well, I was depressed at the time and did NOT care for the thing she was trying to help me with, I had bigger fish to fry at the time and no energy left to argue with her. This happened at *least* 10 times in a few months time. In fact, every time she saw me - which made me try to avoid her, of course but due to social obligations was impossible. The repetition and the refusal to hear a polite 'No' drove me mad - I did not have the energy to keep dealing with her inability to deal with her own uncomfortableness about her helplessness in the situation. She wasn't helping me, she was trying to alleviate her own guilt for not being able to help me in a way that actually did something for me. Yet I *NEVER* expected her to cure my depression for me, all I asked for was the time and space to figure this thing out on my own and to *not* be judged on the things I was neglecting in order to be able to do so.

    It got to the point where she showed up, unannounced, FORCING what she had suggested on me. She'd gone and done it anyways. Shoving her 'solution' in my hands, going, look through there and we'll adjust it to be perfect together! I ended up blowing up on her, after months of fatigue and resentment for her not leaving me alone as I requested, and throwing her out of the house, with her gift. The pain, horror and tears in her eyes still haunt me to this day (as I do dearly love her) and at the same time I RESENT her for making me do that to her. I know she loves me and I get that she meant well, that it was the only way she felt she could genuinely help me through this difficult time. And she put so much time, effort and I suspect even money in it. But I DID NOT ASK FOR ANY OF THIS. On the contrary, I specifically told her No every gorram time. In fact, the one thing I asked for, that I so desperately needed, she went out of her way to ignore coz to *her* it wasn't productive and didn't quiet down her worries. And I honest to god did not have it in me at the time to tend to her worries about me for her. She wasted both our time and energy by refusing to hear me. Energy that was so precious to me in the first place, at that point in time.

    I dunno...How do you get through to someone like that? How would you avoid being the one who breaks her heart?
    What I find interesting about this is that this kind of thing definitely annoys me as well- it's hard to deal with anyone who doesn't listen, and whose urge to "be helpful" supercedes their actual ability to be helpful (so they mindlessly pursue it.....because then it becomes more about them than about you and it's exhausting)- but it wouldn't make me blow up. If the person showed up forcing her suggestion on me, I'd flat out tell her that I appreciate the concern but it isn't helpful. If I'd tried telling her already, I"d point out specifically when and how many times I tried telling her. If she didn't hear any of it and kept going forward with her idea, I'd start avoiding her (I'd just make sure to explicitly tell her why I couldn't handle dealing with her anymore). So I understand why it's annoying, but it seems to be a lot more distressing to you guys.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #238
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ^Yes, that's what it seems like to me.



    What I find interesting about this is that this kind of thing definitely annoys me as well- it's hard to deal with anyone who doesn't listen, and whose urge to "be helpful" supercedes their actual ability to be helpful (so they mindlessly pursue it.....because then it becomes more about them than about you and it's exhausting)- but it wouldn't make me blow up. If the person showed up forcing her suggestion on me, I'd flat out tell her that I appreciate the concern but it isn't helpful. If I'd tried telling her already, I"d point out specifically when and how many times I tried telling her. If she didn't hear any of it and kept going forward with her idea, I'd start avoiding her (I'd just make sure to explicitly tell her why I couldn't handle dealing with her anymore). So I understand why it's annoying, but it seems to be a lot more distressing to you guys.
    right i'd be pretty open about it too if it were a close friend or family member. like omg stop making me feel bad for not wanting you to do such n such...we just need different things in times like this and i'm telling you i don't need it but know that i think you're so sweet for wanting so much to do something to be helpful...and just that is enough for me and means so much...

    but...if it's someone not terribly close...or close but someone you can't be blunt with....then it just sucks a whole lot.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #239
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The reason it’s a good idea to “keep score” is because if someone is more draining than not, it probably shouldn’t go ignored.
    And why not? I mean, why not ignore it? I make a choice in this instance to accept the lack of equal reciprocity. It does not change my noticing of things. It does not change how I behave towards my Mom in our next interaction. I will take ownership of how I feel and not handling the tomato incident in the best possible manner for me and try to improve it for next time. But that won't necessarily involve me trying to change her. Does that make sense?

    I process that all that kind of stuff internally, not externally. So, I pay attention mostly because I need to have some awareness when things exceed my ability to tend to them internally. I make a conscious choice in some interactions and am aware of getting the pointy end of the stick (or the short end) and I still do what I do anyway because I make that choice.

    You (generically, generally) avoid the interaction because it harbors resentment. I put up with the interaction and process the resentment. To expect people to feel no negativity or resentment at all in the yin and yang of interactions is simply unrealistic. I don't try to put up any barriers to that stuff, meaning, the real world data comes in and the feelings - well, the feelings come my way too. I won't burden anyone with any of those conflicted feelings unless I've clearly got an issue on my hands that requires out-loud emotional work.

    (Disclaimer - yes, I have tried to shirk the emotional work but it doesn't end well, and I've had enough life experience to know at this point it cannot be done without significant consequence. So, ya.)

    Sometimes though, I bitch about that choice. Here on the forum is removed enough to afford me that luxury. Just because I need to vent about processing, it does not mean I want to or am going to change the interaction because I can see benefits to choosing my position. Still, once in a while, a little venting helps. For example, I am not prepared to cut my mother out of my life so it means I mostly let her deal the cards and I try to make the best hand out of that I can. And lots of times it's just fine. Sometimes it sucks a bit.

    The change of the external for me does not necessarily fix the internal. If I made some new boundaries with my Mom, for example, it only means I avoid the internal work of thoroughly examining why I react the way I do and actually doing something to help myself heal and grow by getting real-world feedback from the process of finding out those areas and working through them. The change of external circumstance only provides a smokescreen to the real pay-dirt which is getting into the nitty-gritty of why I have the thoughts and feelings I do in the first place. It doesn't allow me to evolve them into anything usably new.

    That is why I propose an examination in corollary (albeit not the same as what I do, because you are not me, thus the exercise will look different). I sense a corollary between my aux Ne and your inf Se. I want to more deeply pursue that, but the whole concept of 'feelings' vs 'emotions' gets in the way.

    There is no way of knowing if what I propose is useful because I realize you see less value in such explorations nor can you predict the end-point, and unfortunately what I propose is experiential and contingent upon each step forward customized to the last step taken, so I can't outline what that would look like for you or exactly where we would go. Ultimately the goal is to take that process and integrate it into a useful paradigm moving forward. Not useful for me. Useful for you. Customized, as it were.

    So, if in the future, any INFJ's want to take one tiny, small example of an issue that still burdens you in the processing of it, we can examine it 'my way' and you can evaluate the utility of this. See what you think.

    I am going to take a forum break because I've been doing too much living in my head lately. But, I am still up for this so keep it in mind for sometime.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This paragraph is a thing of beauty.
    i get that it expresses your sentiment... but i am not actually convinced that it's the case - that it genuinely represents the reality of Fe. figuring out whether it is or isn't the case has being a major concern for me. i wouldn't be talking about it if i didn't have my doubts in all directions.

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