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  1. #221
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Interesting ... Let me clarify first: Are you saying I want reciprocity but how could I want that if I didn't notice or wasn't keeping score?
    Basically, yes.

    I think in very basic human terms (outside of Fe or Fi exclusivity), if dealing with someone requires attending to their needs (and humoring the ‘courtesy’ they provide as if it’s really a courtesy and not some obligation they are imposing on you) in a manner disproportionate with having needs met in return- that’s a problem. The reason it’s a good idea to “keep score” is because if someone is more draining than not, it probably shouldn’t go ignored. It is my experience that Fi'ers are every bit as capable of thinking they are doing a 'courtesy' (which in reality works out to be an imposition, more taxing than not) as Fe'ers are- so I was wondering exactly what separates the Fi expectation of "reciprocity" from when a Fe'er expects "reciprocity". Imo- it just seems to me there should be a genuinely respectful common denominator that has nothing to do with type.

    But maybe nevermind my question because I'm not sure I'm following what exactly is meant here by “emotional currency” anyway.

    eta:When someone only does things or expresses care for someone else for the returns it brings them, yeah, that’s the very definition of narcissism. I believe this is true regardless of a person’s “type”: the more someone does something out of a genuine desire to provide a ‘courtesy’ or to express caring or good will, the less they will need “reciprocity”. At the same time: the less reciprocity genuinely surfaces on it’s own during repeated interaction with someone, that’s probably a red flag to back away from a relationship because it’s very possibly one-sided.

    The thing that is somewhat stuck in my craw in this conversation is that it seems like Fi’ers are jumping on “I pay attention to how much reciprocity happens in interaction with someone” as if merely paying attention is a horrible Fe thing and necessarily implies that someone is in the interaction for the gains they may get. But that’s not the only reason to pay attention. Js take note simply because we unconsciously take note of pretty much everything, as fia has already said. [And frankly, it seems to me like I’m hearing it loosely implied that Fi’ers are less likely to use other people in a narcissistic way- which is the part that’s annoying me.]



    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Regarding my reaction to the tomatoes: I don't think it's a so dom thing. Just like the tier thing helps me decide on how much I trust certain advice, etc, I also think to past experiences and how the outcome worked out for everyone and calibrate my reaction to the situation. So if offered free tomatoes by one person, I might take them. From someone who turns it into a huge obligation, I would politely refuse or else just leave the plans hazy enough that unless the other person did something, the exchange would never come about. Ni is a big part of that whole process though.
    The so dom thing occurred to me because (I wondered if) maybe it seemed like the lesser of two evils to be super diplomatic about it. I wish I had that priority of saying things in a more diplomatic way- both Fi'ers and Fe'ers who are more at the influence of so variant tend to be more careful about this. I'm sure having "so dominant" brought up gets old (sorry). (I actually do wish I felt it regularly as more of a priority myself though.)

    Yes, I think the whole Ni tier thing would create an aversion to being backed into that tomato corner from the very first time it happened (even if it was simply witnessing someone else get backed into that corner). If it's someone I didn't know particularly well, then I'd do my best to politely decline and then avoid the person/situation too. If it's someone I can't really avoid, then I'll flat out say why I refuse to participate in it (though I am very careful and still try to personalize how much I really need to say based on how much I suspect they'll actually be able to hear and use- if I’m saying something ‘for me’ instead of ‘for them’, then it’s just mean). I think the reason I do this is because if the tables were turned, I'd be sorta aghast to find out someone was 'pretending' to appreciate the tomatoes and secretly harboring resentment about it- I feel like I owe it to people to be upfront. My very first option, though, is to try to politely back away/avoid.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #222
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ok, so you too would use avoidance...Does it ever wear on you that they *keep* telling you to take the tomatoes, year after year, *every* time you see them? *curious*
    That is one aspect of people that does wear me down, but it is prevalent in many scenarios. i remembered that sort of ritualistic communication back when I attended a small church. Everyone said the exact same phrases every week for prayers and praises and before and after their service. When I used to ride the city bus there were some special needs people who created the exact same ride each day. A woman sat by me every day for a long time and we had the exact same conversation directed by her. She told me the story of how she ended up mentally retarded as a child, then she would ask me what I had for lunch. Somewhere along the ride an autistic man in the back would shout, "Two... rabbit ears", and another "There sure are a lot of cars". When my mother leaves a phone message the phrasing and cadence of her voice is identical when she says "Oh,... hi fia. I'm just calling to say hello". When living in a small town there were cafes that played the exact same saxophone CD every day for years. Even here on the forums, how many times have we tried to analyze Fi vs. Fe.

    I think repetition is security, and it is intensified by fear and a need for certainty. Excessive tomato growing and insistence on placing these with people could even be a need for security and control in the world.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #223
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    and finally

    i have something very important to say about this topic

    Suddenly everyone starts saying "yes" to tomatoes!
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #224
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    But it's not just turning it on. It's using my feelings for that person or for the outcome to fire my enthusiasm, instead of the thing itself. It's not a matter of grinning and bearing it while loathing what I am doing inside.

  5. #225
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @fia

    It is not just the repetition for me though. It is feeling of being harassed every time with that 'offer' that feels more like you re being impolite or 'rude' for not accepting their generous gift. It tires me out, makes me resentful and avoidant of that person to *every* time insist on saying politely 'no' and *feel* the disappointment they seem to vibe out. Or is that something that registers differently for you?


    @Z Buck McFate I'd love a concrete example of how you experience Fi users expectations. I think the reason that Fi-users came together on this is not so much to imply we are somehow *less* narcissistic or manipulative, but to understand how to deal with this and what is exactly being communicated here - I know thats why I joined in. It is a problem Ive had with certain family members of mine for decades and since I'm not an Fe-user, I'm not confident in a) what is being communicated nor b) the parameters I'm supposed to use to gauge how someone might be bending the system as Im not sure what the system is supposed to look like. And it stands to reason that the same thing would be true on the Fe-user side, so feel free to be equally curious back.


    Hell, I've had a situation where an Fe-user close to me felt the need to do something for me so she offered it repeatedly. I always declined coz I was...well, I was depressed at the time and did NOT care for the thing she was trying to help me with, I had bigger fish to fry at the time and no energy left to argue with her. This happened at *least* 10 times in a few months time. In fact, every time she saw me - which made me try to avoid her, of course but due to social obligations was impossible. The repetition and the refusal to hear a polite 'No' drove me mad - I did not have the energy to keep dealing with her inability to deal with her own uncomfortableness about her helplessness in the situation. She wasn't helping me, she was trying to alleviate her own guilt for not being able to help me in a way that actually did something for me. Yet I *NEVER* expected her to cure my depression for me, all I asked for was the time and space to figure this thing out on my own and to *not* be judged on the things I was neglecting in order to be able to do so.

    It got to the point where she showed up, unannounced, FORCING what she had suggested on me. She'd gone and done it anyways. Shoving her 'solution' in my hands, going, look through there and we'll adjust it to be perfect together! I ended up blowing up on her, after months of fatigue and resentment for her not leaving me alone as I requested, and throwing her out of the house, with her gift. The pain, horror and tears in her eyes still haunt me to this day (as I do dearly love her) and at the same time I RESENT her for making me do that to her. I know she loves me and I get that she meant well, that it was the only way she felt she could genuinely help me through this difficult time. And she put so much time, effort and I suspect even money in it. But I DID NOT ASK FOR ANY OF THIS. On the contrary, I specifically told her No every gorram time. In fact, the one thing I asked for, that I so desperately needed, she went out of her way to ignore coz to *her* it wasn't productive and didn't quiet down her worries. And I honest to god did not have it in me at the time to tend to her worries about me for her. She wasted both our time and energy by refusing to hear me. Energy that was so precious to me in the first place, at that point in time.

    I dunno...How do you get through to someone like that? How would you avoid being the one who breaks her heart?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  6. #226
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know the situation exactly, Amargith. However, I think that because Fe tends to be action-oriented, if you want to head that sort of stuff off, you might have to come up with something the person can DO that you would genuinely find helpful. It might also help if you explain the WHY of why you wouldn't find the suggested thing helpful and how it might actually impede you getting on with things.

    I realize it's not perfect, but in some ways, you just have to weigh which is worse - feeling like you just murdered a family of kittens, or having to explain what you would like instead (even if it is just to be left alone). The more detail you can give, the better. Generally, people like nice feedback and don't go out of their way to get poor feedback, but in this kind of case, you need to provide an active substitute for what they want to do for you. I think Fe users just have a hard time not putting themselves in your position and really believing that you want to be left alone (if they did that it would usually mean they really, really aren't okay, especially if it's like that over the course of months and a caring person would push a little to help them). This is their version of a Fi user jumping into my emotional river when I'm upset to figure out how they would feel and what they would do, when I really just want them to throw me a rope.

  7. #227
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know the situation exactly, Amargith. However, I think that because Fe tends to be action-oriented, if you want to head that sort of stuff off, you might have to come up with something the person can DO that you would genuinely find helpful. It might also help if you explain the WHY of why you wouldn't find the suggested thing helpful and how it might actually impede you getting on with things.

    I realize it's not perfect, but in some ways, you just have to weigh which is worse - feeling like you just murdered a family of kittens, or having to explain what you would like instead (even if it is just to be left alone). The more detail you can give, the better. Generally, people like nice feedback and don't go out of their way to get poor feedback, but in this kind of case, you need to provide an active substitute for what they want to do for you. I think Fe users just have a hard time not putting themselves in your position and really believing that you want to be left alone (if they did that it would usually mean they really, really aren't okay, especially if it's like that over the course of months and a caring person would push a little to help them). This is their version of a Fi user jumping into my emotional river when I'm upset to figure out how they would feel and what they would do, when I really just want them to throw me a rope.
    I've been meaning to ask you about that, actually. What if I jump in, but bring the rope with?
    I mean, do you mind empathy on top of sympathy? And for that matter, does that mean you want me to sit and listen without interrupting you or suggesting ways to get out - which to me would be the equivalent of shouting encouraging things at you from the side of the river without throwing you a rope, really - or does that mean actively helping you to think of solutions...which in my experience gets me into a Te vs Fe conflict? What exactly does that process look like to an Fe-user?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #228
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think the reason that Fi-users came together on this is not so much to imply we are somehow *less* narcissistic or manipulative, but to understand how to deal with this and what is exactly being communicated here - I know thats why I joined in. It is a problem Ive had with certain family members of mine for decades and since I'm not an Fe-user, I'm not confident in a) what is being communicated nor b) the parameters I'm supposed to use to gauge how someone might be bending the system as Im not sure what the system is supposed to look like. And it stands to reason that the same thing would be true on the Fe-user side, so feel free to be equally curious back.
    It did occur to me after I’d posted that I think there may be cumulative affect going on here for me, too much past experience of Fe/Fi discussions and not being able to separate the past Fe/Fi threads from the current one. And I really shouldn’t post when I’m feeling annoyed because of that.

    About the expectations, I’m having a hard time coming up with specific examples or even making one up. It might help if I knew why you were asking (it would help to narrow it down). The only ones that are immediately coming to mind are still too muddled in my head (emotionally charged- which is why they’re immediately coming to mind) so I’m not willing to post them. And so I went through my fb list (because it happens to be an actual list of people I know) to remind me of the FPs I know: I could make a list of what I feel like their expectations are, but I presume you’re asking for expectations that I find grating? I don’t find the people on my fb list annoying. And for obvious reasons, I can’t give specific examples of it happening in this forum.

    I will say this much- in answer to how I experience it: I think most people have a tendency to assume others have the same needs, and that they expect others to have the same resiliencies too. Speaking only for myself- while I can find Fe annoying when the person isn’t really paying attention to whether or not it’s genuine harmony they’re creating, I can usually shrug it off as their problem. It is my problem while it’s directly interfering with my day, and it can make me quite angry- but I don’t take it personally, I just see it as the other person being senselessly bossy.

    My experience of the expectations (some) Fi dom/aux seem to have is that they seem to think (1) all raw batter needs to be given full weight, (2) it is disrespectful not to give it all full weight and (3) this ‘truth’ is universal and anyone who doesn’t adhere to it is wrong and bad. It can be so much work to untangle the knots Ni gets into when a person directs their raw batter at me. So I don’t know how else to say this, but with Fi it’s like the ‘expectation’ is to have me over for dinner, feed me a 12 course meal and then get angry when I can’t finish because “Fe is oppressing me and I can’t say ALL THE THINGS!! I shouldn’t have to pay attention to how much raw data I serve, I shouldn’t have to bake any of it because that (feee-e-eels like it) is not being true to myself! If I feel like it’s helping me be true to myself, then it CAN’T POSSIBLY have a bad affect on anyone and anyone who says different is BAD.” <- I believe this is at the core of the specific examples that I won’t post.

    With Je dom/aux- inner tenacity often comes across as simply force of will. But with Pe dom/aux (and particularly Ne dom/aux), the tenacity comes across as a calm bombardment of shape-shifty logic. In Ni, incoming information unzips into files that are infinitely bigger- I can’t possibly take in all that raw batter and give it as much weight as some Fi dom/aux seems to think “a good and respectful person” would. I don't know if that's helpful without also giving specific examples that cause it, but that's what my experience is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I've been meaning to ask you about that, actually. What if I jump in, but bring the rope with?
    I mean, do you mind empathy on top of sympathy? And for that matter, does that mean you want me to sit and listen without interrupting you or suggesting ways to get out - which to me would be the equivalent of shouting encouraging things at you from the side of the river without throwing you a rope, really - or does that mean actively helping you to think of solutions...which in my experience gets me into a Te vs Fe conflict? What exactly does that process look like to an Fe-user?
    I know this was directed at fidelia, but since I’m here and responding to the other thing: the only problem with empathy on top of sympathy is that it can make me wonder if the person has the same blindspot, so it won’t go as far in helping me put my anger or hurt (or whatever negative affect) into perspective. It’s validating, which is important, but it still leaves an itch for a more removed perspective.

    (If I had to choose between someone who knew how to validate but not give the removed perspective vs. someone who could give a removed perspective without being able to give validation….that’s a hard call, it really depends on the situation I guess. Though ultimately, ‘empathy’ from someone who doesn’t understand the need for removed perspective will very quickly reach the point of diminishing returns anyway.)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #229
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I know this was directed at fidelia, but since I’m here and responding to the other thing: the only problem with empathy on top of sympathy is that it can make me wonder if the person has the same blindspot, so it won’t go as far in helping me put my anger or hurt (or whatever negative affect) into perspective. It’s validating, which is important, but it still leaves an itch for a more removed perspective.

    (If I had to choose between someone who knew how to validate but not give the removed perspective vs. someone who could give a removed perspective without being able to give validation….that’s a hard call, it really depends on the situation I guess. Though ultimately, ‘empathy’ from someone who doesn’t understand the need for removed perspective will very quickly reach the point of diminishing returns anyway.)
    one question about empathy/perspective: if i offer you my experience (empathy) and give you suggestions as to how i coped with it (removed perspective) does that work for you? [this isn't a theoretical exercise, i normally listen to friends and advise them based on my similar experiences and solutions that worked for me/other people]

  10. #230
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    @fia

    It is not just the repetition for me though. It is feeling of being harassed every time with that 'offer' that feels more like you re being impolite or 'rude' for not accepting their generous gift. It tires me out, makes me resentful and avoidant of that person to *every* time insist on saying politely 'no' and *feel* the disappointment they seem to vibe out. Or is that something that registers differently for you?


    @Z Buck McFate I'd love a concrete example of how you experience Fi users expectations. I think the reason that Fi-users came together on this is not so much to imply we are somehow *less* narcissistic or manipulative, but to understand how to deal with this and what is exactly being communicated here - I know thats why I joined in. It is a problem Ive had with certain family members of mine for decades and since I'm not an Fe-user, I'm not confident in a) what is being communicated nor b) the parameters I'm supposed to use to gauge how someone might be bending the system as Im not sure what the system is supposed to look like. And it stands to reason that the same thing would be true on the Fe-user side, so feel free to be equally curious back.


    Hell, I've had a situation where an Fe-user close to me felt the need to do something for me so she offered it repeatedly. I always declined coz I was...well, I was depressed at the time and did NOT care for the thing she was trying to help me with, I had bigger fish to fry at the time and no energy left to argue with her. This happened at *least* 10 times in a few months time. In fact, every time she saw me - which made me try to avoid her, of course but due to social obligations was impossible. The repetition and the refusal to hear a polite 'No' drove me mad - I did not have the energy to keep dealing with her inability to deal with her own uncomfortableness about her helplessness in the situation. She wasn't helping me, she was trying to alleviate her own guilt for not being able to help me in a way that actually did something for me. Yet I *NEVER* expected her to cure my depression for me, all I asked for was the time and space to figure this thing out on my own and to *not* be judged on the things I was neglecting in order to be able to do so.

    It got to the point where she showed up, unannounced, FORCING what she had suggested on me. She'd gone and done it anyways. Shoving her 'solution' in my hands, going, look through there and we'll adjust it to be perfect together! I ended up blowing up on her, after months of fatigue and resentment for her not leaving me alone as I requested, and throwing her out of the house, with her gift. The pain, horror and tears in her eyes still haunt me to this day (as I do dearly love her) and at the same time I RESENT her for making me do that to her. I know she loves me and I get that she meant well, that it was the only way she felt she could genuinely help me through this difficult time. And she put so much time, effort and I suspect even money in it. But I DID NOT ASK FOR ANY OF THIS. On the contrary, I specifically told her No every gorram time. In fact, the one thing I asked for, that I so desperately needed, she went out of her way to ignore coz to *her* it wasn't productive and didn't quiet down her worries. And I honest to god did not have it in me at the time to tend to her worries about me for her. She wasted both our time and energy by refusing to hear me. Energy that was so precious to me in the first place, at that point in time.

    I dunno...How do you get through to someone like that? How would you avoid being the one who breaks her heart?
    yes dear god yes i know exactly what you're talking about. that shit drives me mad! like "i'm" having an issue but i can't even focus on that in your presence because you've made this all about you and what you need to do for me and now i'm feeling like shit because i didn't accept this thing i didn't even want

    it's the whole guilt trip pressure thing and the massive disappointment felt when your gift wasn't wanted.

    i say...if you wanna help someone you ought to do it in a way they might actually appreciate.

    when i try to be helpful to my fe family people i do stuff they appreciate. :/
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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