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  1. #211
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The whole thing likely boils down to me having sucky boundaries, but regardless of that, the dynamic is I think recognizable to many Fi and Fe users. In the Fe - Fe dynamic, it would be about who's the more socially assertive, willing to use the currency.

    I don't know what to do about that either, aside from being willing to spend.
    Ime, use Te to cut off demand. But that comes at significant social cost at times.
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  2. #212
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I think it's worth mentioning too that although the thought to go up to my parents yesterday was altruistic, all of the adjusting I did was to please AND because I wanted to avoid conflict. Not because I am better than my Mom in any way.

    It's a very e9 way to be, and I see it and know I need to keep learning how to take it to the next level where the fear of rejection doesn't rule me.

    So, I'm not trying to pass myself off here as some sort of saint or pariah. This is just how the dynamic goes down. Not sure what to do to avoid conflict. Just have to be a big girl and accept there will be conflict ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #213
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    i am not sure what to make of the "emotional currency" thing - it's somewhat of a nostalgic throw back for me:

    i did used to think in terms of exchange and bartering prior to my marriage, it was actually my INFJ exwife that introduced me to the ideal of thinking in terms of the group - what are the needs of the family as a whole. while it's questionable whether she actually practiced it, it provided for me much of the framework form which i grew my relationship with my son and my sense of family as a whole, and the ideal somewhat stuck with me since - do what needs to be done. not your part, not your fair share, not an exchange, but whatever needs to be done, within a framework where other's needs are your own - it's not what you need or they, its just what needs to be done. for me, this is an Fe ideal... which i've learned from an FJ.

  4. #214
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I've had a hypothesis that Ni - Fe is possibly the closest functional combination outside of being an Fi user to 'get' Fi, that the Ni - Fe combo might really be able to stretch and have an 'aha!' moment. But in 4 years of trying I don't see it happening despite better intellectualizing on the issue. I don't always want to abide by an Fe structure, but I respect it. What bugs me is that when I need to venture from that structure to try to explain myself, the Fe structure seeks to realign me for doing so, either by freezing me out or making me fall back in line. Ergo, my structure is not respected in turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    And, there's the rub. Fi users don't deal in emotional currency. Thus, can feel they are not afforded the benefit of genuine emotional choice in return. Fi doms generally don't use emotions as a means to an end, even if an Fe user interprets it so; a conflict-avoidant Fi user learns not to emote at all or fake it and just tell an Fe person what they want to hear because we can sense the 'right' answer and it saves us a lot of grief. Personally, I think it sucks for both of us that this is the perspective I have to adopt sometimes. (this para edited a bit for clarity.)

    Fe users readily show their boundaries, and there's a lot to praise that for. Fi users just do not use emotional currency in the way Fe users do. I sure don't keep a tab. It is distasteful to me to even imagine having one! My son is ESFP e2 and he keeps that tab in a different way than Fe users do ... but still he keeps track. So, I am not passing a judgment on the right or wrong of that from either vantage point (Fe or Fi), just saying how it feels to me personally in relation to the topic of these types of "you rub my back, I'll rub yours" expenditures.
    I’m having trouble reconciling these two posts, with special regard to the bolded. How do these not contradict each other, what's the difference? (Because that first post appears, to me, like a pretty clear demonstration of 'keeping tabs'....so what am I missing? ...I'm actually trying to flesh out a possible difference here in the different sorts of things Fe and Fi keep tabs on.)


    eta: And with the tomatoe anecdote, I’m wondering: why do you enable it? Is it an so variant thing, maybe? Because I don’t feel obligated to enable people who take and take without being able to hear about what I think they’re taking. While I think being Ni dom makes it extraordinarily difficult for me at times to have faith in my perception that I’m being taken for granted- after I’ve bounced it off a few people to make sure I’m not being very short-sighted, I refuse to entertain this kind of relationship. The single only person I tolerate any semblance of this from is my own mother, and that’s because she has a tantrum whenever one of us is honest with her about it…..but even then, in that tomato scenario, I would never ‘yes’ to the tomatoes in the first place. I generally refuse all ‘help’ from her because I already know it comes with a price (this is a way in which the 'tier mechanism' proves extremely beneficial).

    In more direct answer to that scenario, I would turn down the ‘free’ tomatoes. If she asked why, I’d explain that I could get tomatoes locally for less than the price of gas to retrieve the ‘free’ ones….and then I might suggest that maybe someone closer to her could use them. At the absolute most, I’d say, “Well if it’s important to you they get used, then I suppose I could come out and get them in spite of it actually costing me probably more than buying some locally, and I can’t even promise 100% I’d get around to using them…..but I’ll come out if you really want me to.” <- If this did feel like I was doing a favor for her, I’d make that very clear.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #215
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m having trouble reconciling these two posts, with special regard to the bolded. How do these not contradict each other, what's the difference? (Because that first post appears, to me, like a pretty clear demonstration of 'keeping tabs'....so what am I missing? ...I'm actually trying to flesh out a possible difference here in the different sorts of things Fe and Fi keep tabs on.)
    Interesting ... Let me clarify first: Are you saying I want reciprocity but how could I want that if I didn't notice or wasn't keeping score?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #216
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Interesting ... Let me clarify first: Are you saying I want reciprocity but how could I want that if I didn't notice or wasn't keeping score?
    I'd say that you want others to empathize with you...
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
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    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


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  7. #217
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Regarding my reaction to the tomatoes: I don't think it's a so dom thing. Just like the tier thing helps me decide on how much I trust certain advice, etc, I also think to past experiences and how the outcome worked out for everyone and calibrate my reaction to the situation. So if offered free tomatoes by one person, I might take them. From someone who turns it into a huge obligation, I would politely refuse or else just leave the plans hazy enough that unless the other person did something, the exchange would never come about. Ni is a big part of that whole process though.

    I don't really feel bad at all about having certain boundaries if I see it as taking preventative measures to preserve our relationship.

    Also with Mane - I think that your view and mine fit together without contradiction. When taking into account the two people's views/wishes/needs in the reciprocity thing, how both people's wishes affect the people around them is taken into account as well. It's not just a tit for tat thing. I suppose maybe this is polluted with Ni too, but I do tend to look at patterns overall. I think that's why something little can either be a very big deal or not a big deal at all to me depending on how close to the tipping point we are in me suddenly recognizing a pattern. I don't know where that point is, and often have to spend a bunch of time sorting out whether or not it's reasonable for me to even feel that way over something that seems rather insignificant on the surface. That's usually where the Fe bouncing it off of someone comes into play. I don't like a relationship where I am constantly keeping score. On the other hand, if you start to notice that one person is doing the majority of the accommodating/giving/bending, it becomes apparent that it is time to make some changes.

  8. #218
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Im interested in hearing how Fe-users would deal with/experience the tomato situation coz Ive been in it myself
    The tomato scenario is just as alien to me, and I don't interpret that as emotional currency or emotional anything, but more of a pragmatic business exchange and community responsibilities.

    Assuming that translate to most NFs also has limited accuracy. That scenario is way at the extreme edge of the Sensor Feeler spectrum. For mr a tomato has no correlation to emotion any more than some other object. I did know a dear ESFJ who was similar about her tomatoes and faithfully kept a diary that catalogued every meal and prayer list. I mostly kept quiet, but her son was comfortable telling her "no". I would mostly avoid the person.

    I remember a lot of details about people important to me. I remember what they to,d me, when they hurt me and when they were kind. I have a deeply personal and visceral response on one level and a completely detached analysis on another. I keep track, but it isn't currency, but information. I build inner constructs, but try to make them as fluid as possible to most directly reflect reality. When I share my vulnerability like being super nice and complimentary, when I share something personal, I hope that the person will connect to me, and they often do, but not in a regular or concrete way. I feel lonely and disconnected most of the time and am on a constant quest for a connection that eases a continual awareness of our existential isolation.

    My reaction as an INFJ to the tomato scenario is to avoid the person, try to create boundaries when interaction, but then to become a recluse for as long as it takes to ponder the meaning of "the tomato".
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #219
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok, so you too would use avoidance...Does it ever wear on you that they *keep* telling you to take the tomatoes, year after year, *every* time you see them? *curious*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #220
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Regarding my reaction to the tomatoes
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    it's pretty fresh (just like the tomatoes!)
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The tomato scenario is just as alien to me
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    For me a tomato has no correlation to emotion
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    tomato situation coz Ive been in it myself
    and finally

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    if offered free tomatoes by one person, I might take them
    i have something very important to say about this topic


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