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  1. #201
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I've heard many people "complain" about this facet of Fi but I've never notice it happen, tbh. i certainly don't talk much in affirmatives, i'm more of a "what if?" / "maybe" / "have you thought about" kind of person.
    On a second thought, both my ENFJ mum and INFP girlfriend tend to do a lot of "you should do this" "you should be that" "you should change that", which i find really annoying. but it's not the same thing as hearing "you are feeling this or that".
    I think this is exactly it. The negative, controlling, fearful side of:

    Fe = "You should do this", "Your should stop doing this", "You have done a bad thing and should be punished by me".
    When Fe is controlling it pushes its plans and punishes.

    Fi = "You are this", "You feel this", "You are a bad person, and I'm going to run away".
    When Fi is controlling it withholds and is passive aggressive.

    Once again, definitely not hard and fast rules as all types can do all these things, but there is a difference between telling someone what to do and telling someone who they are. There is the added complexity of the person hearing the message to interpret it the other way as well. I'm not terribly pushy, but there have a been a couple of incidents when I told my family someone they should do, and they heard me criticize who they are which never crossed my mind. When they told me who I am, I asked what I was doing wrong.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #202
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think this is exactly it. The negative, controlling, fearful side of:

    Fe = "You should do this", "Your should stop doing this", "You have done a bad thing and should be punished by me".
    When Fe is controlling it pushes its plans and punishes.

    Fi = "You are this", "You feel this", "You are a bad person, and I'm going to run away".
    When Fi is controlling it withholds and is passive aggressive.

    Once again, definitely not hard and fast rules as all types can do all these things, but there is a difference between telling someone what to do and telling someone who they are. There is the added complexity of the person hearing the message to interpret it the other way as well. I'm not terribly pushy, but there have a been a couple of incidents when I told my family someone they should do, and they heard me criticize who they are which never crossed my mind. When they told me who I am, I asked what I was doing wrong.
    No, wait, that's not what i said.
    I was saying that i've never felt "you are this" or "you feel this" statements from Fi users, and i certainly don't do them myself. I'd like to hear if more Fi users agree with me on this.
    What I was saying is that the two major F-doms in my life, one Fe and one Fi, both do the "you should do this" or "this is the correct choice for you", "you should change that" etc. It's not about changing my Fi, but my appearance/behaviour. Anyways, it's really annoying to me, a P-dom.

  3. #203
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    No, wait, that's not what i said.
    I was saying that i've never felt "you are this" or "you feel this" statements from Fi users, and i certainly don't do them myself. I'd like to hear if more Fi users agree with me on this.
    What I was saying is that the two major F-doms in my life, one Fe and one Fi, both do the "you should do this" or "this is the correct choice for you", "you should change that" etc. It's not about changing my Fi, but my appearance/behaviour. Anyways, it's really annoying to me, a P-dom.
    Sorry, I wish I could. I have seen Fi-users get defensive (and responded like that myself) and stating that people *are* [insert statement]. It is usually done in a reaction to discovering something they dont like about the other person. Often it's due to not being able to fathom why someone would *do* something if it isn't in line with who they are - aka Fe-users who do things for other motivations than individual, unique shit. We see it as a sign of who they are inside, and yes, there is a judgement as you cannot fathom why they are inconsistent about who they are in their actions - which often feels like a betrayal, or deception to us. It's not though.

    The feeling thing happens too, when Fi-users start learning how to empathise with others. Often though, especially in the first steps of the learning curve, they empathize but do not sympathize. That means they put themselves in the other person's shoes and *feel* what the other supposedly feels. When the other then does not confirm that, they call them a liar and tell them how they really feel. However, what they don't realize is that they have to adjust for the values, personal quirks and other unique personality shit and baggage that makes up that person, and fuse their empathy (which is tailored to themselves, how *they* would feel in that situation) with sympathy - which understands in a more detached way why this is a bad situation for that particular person and to what extent.
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  4. #204
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That second paragraph is interesting to me. I had never thought about it that way, but that's precisely what feels uncomfortable to me. I'm not asking someone else to actually go through the same experience as me, particularly if it is negative. Nobody who doesn't live in my head can precisely duplicate it anyway, and that lack of precision bothers me. All I need to know is that I am receiving the support I need to deal with it myself. Sometimes that means that the other person is willing to put their own thoughts or feelings aside for a minute because I am overloaded and just need some of the crushing pressure taken off by someone else sympathizing with me. Empathizing may even feel overly intrusive, but if someone understands how I am feeling and seeks to help me alter those negative feelings by their actions or even by my seeing their show of sympathy (listening, doing something nice for me, trying to cheer me up, whatever is authentic to them), then I remember that for a long time.

  5. #205
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That second paragraph is interesting to me. I had never thought about it that way, but that's precisely what feels uncomfortable to me. I'm not asking someone else to actually go through the same experience as me, particularly if it is negative. Nobody who doesn't live in my head can precisely duplicate it anyway, and that lack of precision bothers me. All I need to know is that I am receiving the support I need to deal with it myself. Sometimes that means that the other person is willing to put their own thoughts or feelings aside for a minute because I am overloaded and just need some of the crushing pressure taken off by someone else sympathizing with me. Empathizing may even feel overly intrusive, but if someone understands how I am feeling and seeks to help me alter those negative feelings by their actions or even by my seeing their show of sympathy (listening, doing something nice for me, trying to cheer me up, whatever is authentic to them), then I remember that for a long time.


    And I'm the opposite. I feel more understood, more validated and more appreciated if someone makes the effort to feel the pain I'm feeling. I don't mind telling them where they are different from me. I will see my own pain mirrored in their face, and that in turn will make me take my mind off of my own, and *let* me detach enough to see the problem for what it is,and know how to deal with it - or if there isn't anything to be done, at least not be alone. As they say, misery loves company. In fact, the difference in how they respond to the problem and the pain might provide me with the key to get out of it as it will give me an extra angle to look at the problem with

    To me, sympathy without empathy feels almost like lip service and an attempt to quiet down my turmoil coz they don't want to deal with their own uncomfortableness or the disruption in emotional atmosphere I'm causing. Or so it feels.

    I find that a combo of the both is however the most powerful and effective
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    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #206
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i also see the later as true because to a great deal my problems with FJs seem to be within that realm - when i observe that it is not reality which is being changed for the better but rather the appearance of reality from their perspective - the correct wording to reflect the required atmosphere, the focus, the points of emphasize, the selective process of what gets acknowledged and what gets left under the rug, handpicking which sources are credible and which shouldn't be acknowledged, choosing the "right" point of view in which things appear to reflect the desired conclusion... its a bit like political campaign, except instead of manipulating others, it's manipulating the self.
    This paragraph is a thing of beauty.

    And so is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You can usually tell how much a Fe user wants to do something by the degree of enthusiasm shown, based on the range of emotion you usually see from them. So for example, I might say, "Let's get together for coffee sometime soon". However, I may or may not follow up on initiating that depending on how the other person responds.
    See, that's wonderful - here is a source of the catch-22, what the Fi person feels is the no-win scenario. Fe users generally show if they want to do something by degree of emotional enthusiasm. However, note the contradiction in the following paragraph:

    I think this is why a Fi users non-expression/negative emotion/clear lack of enthusiasm for something important to the other person can anger Fe users after awhile, especially if they feel they have invested pretty heavily in the person and now need their interest/enthusiasm or support in some way.
    And, there's the rub. Fi users don't deal in emotional currency. Thus, can feel they are not afforded the benefit of genuine emotional choice in return. Fi doms generally don't use emotions as a means to an end, even if an Fe user interprets it so; a conflict-avoidant Fi user learns not to emote at all or fake it and just tell an Fe person what they want to hear because we can sense the 'right' answer and it saves us a lot of grief. Personally, I think it sucks for both of us that this is the perspective I have to adopt sometimes. (this para edited a bit for clarity.)

    Fe users readily show their boundaries, and there's a lot to praise that for. Fi users just do not use emotional currency in the way Fe users do. I sure don't keep a tab. It is distasteful to me to even imagine having one! My son is ESFP e2 and he keeps that tab in a different way than Fe users do ... but still he keeps track. So, I am not passing a judgment on the right or wrong of that from either vantage point (Fe or Fi), just saying how it feels to me personally in relation to the topic of these types of "you rub my back, I'll rub yours" expenditures.

    I TOTALLY get though how keeping track can be a real benefit and be useful. I've been a beneficiary of that. I just see so much abuse of the system it's hard to feel positive overall.

    Here's a quick example: My ISFJ Mom has an abundance of tomatoes in her garden. She does not wish to see them go to waste and has mentioned to me a few times that she would like to get rid of them. I know she is strongly hinting at me to take them and do something with them, so I think about that and Monday tell her, "Sure, I have time this year, I could make chili sauce with them." So, I say, "Yes, I would be happy to take them" but me taking them is now part of our Fe dance on the matter. Yesterday we confirm our plans and because I am taking her gift I am now obligated in turn to do something in return, and my Mom is not shy about pressing this quickly. She then says, "That would be great, and since you are coming up, pick me up some Mason jars on the way. And oh, I don't have much salad, could you bring that too for our lunch?" Now, here's the rub - I am happy to do that, because I like my Mom and I understand how she is wired in this way and means nothing terrible by it, but the following bugs me about being pressed:

    1.) This extra errand was not something I knew about in advance, so I will have to add 30 minutes overall to get that stuff and bring it to her place.
    2.) She does not mention whether she will pay me back so I will have to gently suss out whether I can ask to be reimbursed the $10 for Mason jars or consider it part of the collateral of getting the 'free' tomatoes.
    3.) She does not seem to take into account the expense or inconvenience factor for me coming to get the tomatoes in the first place. I live 45 minutes away and am mostly going to help her out. (I wonder if she even gets that I'm just being nice about it.) But in saying yes, I open myself to have to be ingratiated for something that is likely easier and cheaper for me to obtain at the farmer's market 2 min down the street. I've now spent over $10 in gas and $10 in Mason jars for my free tomatoes. And the way I am wired is that I see that as a write-off, I cannot fathom asking for her to comp me on that in return.
    4.) She was going into town that morning anyway before I arrived! Why do I have to be the one to do the errands? I would never ask her to do something that I could readily do myself.
    5.) We have to see what each gives and takes as being 'equal' for the concept of currency to work. I don't think the tomatoes were worth what I 'paid'. Since I don't keep tabs, it doesn't really bother me to come out on the bottom of that. But, I am aware of it.

    Fe definitions of our interaction become the expectation and I for one, seeing and experiencing this difficult catch-22 regularly, can come to resent the one-sidedness, and all framed in a way that makes ME, the Fi person, look selfish if I say NO and assert my own boundary. Fe preferences rule and set our interactions. Do you see how one-sided that looks to the Fi POV?

    I'm not sure about this, but I wonder if Fe users sort of see it as depositing and withdrawing from each other's emotional bank accounts. Even if the "money" is freely offered, it is understood that if it is accepted, the person accepting the "money" is obligating themselves to make a deposit of some sort in the future so that the relationship doesn't become one-sided and unfair. I don't think it is a matter of constantly tallying up totals, but when it does start seeming that one person is being capricious with the "funds" or is unwilling to help the other when they are in desperate need, even though they have been willing to accept stuff in the past, that's when the frustration starts to build.
    I think it's a great analogy. It's exactly how this feels to me. That being said, you are social dominant and e1w2 - your 2wing will also influence the concept of the bank-account. Me being social dominant as well means I totally get the bank account concept but I resent the concept and question the value of the bank account (likely an Fi thing).

    I don't think it is so much a matter of demanding a specific, but not verbalized expected response that puts the Fi user in a no win position. It's just that actions are usually seen more definitely as either a deposit or a withdrawal, rather than something neutral and so when the consideration for the other person doesn't appear to be reciprocated, Fe users are more likely to read a much deeper more negative message into it than was intended.
    See, with my Mom, she sees herself as making the first deposit to give me the tomatoes when in reality I did by agreeing to go out of my way to get them in the middle of the week when we are usually not able to visit. That's what hurts sometimes. That part of it, the pre-part, where I take her wishes and feelings into account, set aside my own preference and try to do something that will make her happy, is invisible to her. (Mostly invisible at least. It hurts to imagine it may even be the expectation.) And I can be ok with that myself, I've accepted that this is the WAY it will be with her, unless I want to change it and that will have repercussions I don't want to deal with today. I just ... well, I can just wish to be appreciated sometimes for my part of things.

    Anyway, my point in sharing that is to illustrate how from the Fi-dom position, and that of 50% of the planet who are not Fe users, Fe can seem oppressive and not nearly as charitable as it claims. I know so many Fe folks who are of good heart, it's not about them being good or caring or loving.

    It's about a system that we are not wired into but whose rules we have to respect even though we are not set up to benefit from them as they benefit you. By pointing that out, it is my hope that you can have more compassion for situations when Fe users feel a lack of support. irl, I try to support Fe as much as I can to keep that realm happy because there's much good to be generated through it. Just, trick y sometimes.

    Anyhoodle, I read those last couple of posts but sincerely, don't want to get into this topic in depth. Just pointing out another perspective.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #207
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Im interested in hearing how Fe-users would deal with/experience the tomato situation coz Ive been in it myself
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #208
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Im interested in hearing how Fe-users would deal with/experience the tomato situation coz Ive been in it myself
    Yes, that would be interesting. It just happened yesterday, so it's pretty fresh (just like the tomatoes!)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #209
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I have to say "x3" here, because I totally understand the situation @PeaceBaby is talking about. Often I do things for people that are "invisible" and I don't expect anything in return, but then I get into situations like the one @PeaceBaby mentioned.
    The second thing I'm also backing up is the "emotional currency" deal. I don't like that (oh ok wait, translation to @Mane and other Fe-users: I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying I don't like it for myself )

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's a system that we are not wired into but whose rules we have to respect even though we are not set up to benefit from them as they benefit you.
    THIS

  10. #210
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    The whole thing likely boils down to me having sucky boundaries, but regardless of that, the dynamic is I think recognizable to many Fi and Fe users. In the Fe - Fe dynamic, it would be about who's the more socially assertive, willing to use the currency.

    I don't know what to do about that either, aside from being willing to spend.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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