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  1. #191
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    one more thing which caught my attention:



    this is a misunderstanding i just have to clarify: what you perceive as disingenuous to one's "true emotions", is actually an inner conflict between multiply true emotions.

    this is because for the Fe, their really is an emotional desire on it's own sake, it is a genuine desire - someone might genuinely desire to not have conflicts or drama, someone might genuinely be conflicted between the need to say what they think and fearing it would hurt someone, someone might truly feel guilty for disturbing a positive social dynamic. Fe emotions & desires are genuine and they feel just as real regardless if you can relate to them or not, and whether someone choosing them over other emotions or chooses the opposite or tries to find a middle path between, it is their resolution for their own inner conflicts between multiply genuine emotions.
    i understand what you are saying. but i also take multiple opinions in consideration. what i like is to know what everyone's true feelings are, so we can arrive to a compromise. and the feeling i have and that frustrates me is that Fe users are not interested in hearing what everyone's personal feelings are, it's as if they don't consider the depth of feeling, they just brush it right off. and this is what sometimes offends me about Fe, when feelings are just not considered.

    I'll give you an example. this one time, i had arranged with two friends of mine (lesbian couple) to go to a natural reservation outside of the city. we were taking their car, so i went to meet them at their house. when i arrived, my ENFJ friend was happy to see me, and arranging everything. but i sensed that she was being a bit bitchy to her INFP girlfriend. and when i was alone with the INFP friend, i realised that she wasn't happy. so the ENFJ friend had put on a show of happiness, when really things weren't alright. and i felt partially guilty, because i'd also replied in a happy tone, without knowing that the room wasn't full of happy feelings.

    now, when someone is not happy or in pain, i feel their feeling. that's where my empathy comes from. so immediately i talked in private to my INFP friend: "hey, what's up, you're not ok?" - although, at the same time, i also felt like i shouldn't dig a lot, because it might be a private issue between the couple. but it pained me to see someone so sad and bottled up with emotions that were not being addressed at all.

    so, already i didn't feel well. when we got to the car, my silent INFP friend finally talked. she said she was so very sorry for the situation (she trully was so embarrassed) but she couldn't pretend everything was alright, and she wasn't feeling in the right mood, and me and the ENFJ friend should go alone, without her, because she just ruins everything and she's worthless blah blah. i said right away: "sure, but we don't need to go at all, don't worry, it's not your fault, if we're not all in the mood, there's no point in going, we can do it another time ". this is my way of solving things.

    i was surprised by the reaction of my ENFJ friend, totally different. she said to her girlfriend: "oh shut up, get in the car and let's drive. it seems like i'm the only adult here, the only one who takes care of things". so both me and the INFP got in the car, and i felt like a girl who'd just received a command by a parental figure. i also felt awful for my INFP friend, and i tried the whole trip to acknowledge her feelings (by supporting her when she was talking, etc).

    but when we arrived to the destination, my INFP friend was happy. she was in the nature and she was happy. and i was surprised again, because i saw how one way of solving issues that is so different to mine, can also work out. but, at the same time, it really got me this Fe way of solving issues, that is about ignoring the feelings that are not useful to you, and i wondered if my friend was ok or just hiding her feelings, still.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ethical declarations: "no! that's just wrong!"
    when you hear an Fi-user say that, please add the imaginary extension line in your head "in my opinion/for me". i often forget to say it. but it's what i mean. when i'm expressing feelings or opinions, i always mean it in my own personal experience, i never assume that everyone should feel like i do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    wishes: "but i don't want too!"
    i have a bit more difficulty understanding what you mean here. if i say i don't want to do something, it means i individually won't do it, but of course you are free to do it yourself. maybe you mean i should consider that you want me to go with you. but if i notice that this is important to you, i will. saying "but i don't want to" might be an opening line: i tell you i don't want to do it, so your answers might be 1) "ok, i'll go alone" or 2) "but please come it's important to me". if you say 2, i'll probably join (because i feel your Fi and i feel empathy). situations like death of family, friend just broke up, etc, if i sense that my presence will be important for the people there, i will definitely go. if i sense that my presence is required "as a social nicety" or for "social etiquette", i won't.

  2. #192
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    (@Fia)

    So wait...the relationship becomes a business transaction? A means to an end?

    I have a sister in law who does this..an ESFJ, and she becomes quite vocal and loud about me not adhering to her wishes, with passive aggressive jabs in every which way. Yet when someone needs something from her, it has to fit in her schedule or its unapologetically canned - I've verified this with other Fe-using members of the family, just to make sure I wasn't dreaming this up. She is incredibly nice to me when I do concede to do somethign - often to accommodate others, like her son who is my god son, or my mother who likes me at family gatherings coz I d rather bend over backwards than to give her what she cajoles me into - like she is rewarding me for being a good puppet.

    ...are you telling me that she isn't...aware of how 'sensitive' a spot those guilt trips she tosses everyone's way is? That this to her is just a way of getting what she wants and one big tug 'o war? That the whining, the bitching, the jabbing is...calculated? And for that matter, that her lashing out and using my own family members against me - putting my brother in the middle, complaining about the bad daughter my mom raised, etc, is just...fair game to her coz she doesn't see the big deal?
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  3. #193
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That doesn't offend me in the least because I don't have an absolute position on social graces or group unity, but they are a means to an end, which is to help people communicate compassion and achieve a sense of peace and security. I completely understand how they can more often be false and I find that incredibly hurtful and upsetting. I also value authenticity and would describe myself as always striving for deeper authenticity. After experiencing profound miscommunication at times, I can see that there are two elements to conveying truth: my ability to express it, and the listener's ability to hear it. If I think one of those is broken, I will tend to go back to the simplest forms of communication until more trust is established between people, and then possibly explore the more complex issues. People's minds and feelings are overwhelmingly complex and once trust is broken, perception distorted, communication becomes a huge mess. Further exploration can create levels of entanglement I don't know what to do with. This happened with my family once, and so I went back to sending special gifts, giving genuine compliments, and sending cute and funny pictures.
    Absolutely. I have to thank you and @Mane so much, because (this may seem stupid to you) I'm finally seeing how Fi and Fe are just as valid and "good", they are just different tools and can be used for the good and the bad. Certainly I'd love to learn more about using Fe and about learning social graces.
    Also, I find it very interesting that you are an Fe-user and So is your last instinct. @Southern Kross is an Fi-user and So is her dominant instinct. It would be lovely to understand how these two things interact and how So can "taint" Fi and Sp/Sx "taint" So, so to speak. I mean, I'd love to understand where Fe ends and So begins.
    Anyway, it's just great to talk to you all, thank you


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So how does one know if what the Fe-user agrees to something that is in fact something what he *wants* to do?
    Ahahah I know, I'm also so afraid of this!


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And for that matter - how do Fe-users stand this in others? When they guilt trip you into doing something you *really* dont feel like, but do grudgingly coz apparently it is important to them - how does it not ruin their experience since you are in fact sitting there with a bored look on your face??? Why would you want that person there, since they re going to ruin your harmony vibe anyways?
    Great question...i also want to know!

  4. #194
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Absolutely. I have to thank you and @Mane so much, because (this may seem stupid to you) I'm finally seeing how Fi and Fe are just as valid and "good", they are just different tools and can be used for the good and the bad. Certainly I'd love to learn more about using Fe and about learning social graces.
    Also, I find it very interesting that you are an Fe-user and So is your last instinct. @Southern Kross is an Fi-user and So is her dominant instinct. It would be lovely to understand how these two things interact and how So can "taint" Fi and Sp/Sx "taint" So, so to speak. I mean, I'd love to understand where Fe ends and So begins.
    Anyway, it's just great to talk to you all, thank you
    My sense of values and awareness are externalized, but moreso on the individual than the group. I can at times be less aware of what I'm feeling than what the other person in the room is feeling. As a music teacher, I now teach individual lessons because I found the group too disorienting. There were too many individual needs and signals present at once. When working with individuals, I observe their system of emotions, thoughts, and communication and I build a sense of it inside that is not based primarily on me or social norms, but on that specific person. This takes time to achieve, but it my natural way of interacting. I like the idea of not imposing myself on them, but encouraging whatever is inside of them and developing a system of values in their best interest. My own sense of values like I said before are basic, almost ethereal, principles that can be applied differently in various contexts. I have to introvert to regain a sense of my own internal framework, needs, and values at times. I've never been vulnerable to peer pressure because I avoid groups, but I have also always needed a connection with at least one special person and have compromised more than what is healthy for me to optimize that connection.

    A while ago I came up with a way of defining four "quadrants" based on Fe and Fi that helped to explain my variation of it. It has to do with which system, intra- or inter-personal, is the one used, but then added from which vantage point, introverted or extroverted, that system is observed. I would personally be "extroverted-intrapersonal".


    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    Feeling Function

    Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

    Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

    Intrapersonal = Existing or occurring within the individual self or mind. These are the dynamics within the internal system of an individual.

    Interpersonal = pertaining to the relations between persons. These are the dynamics in the external systems of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    Introverted - Intrapersonal
    An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within the self. This focus is on self-awareness.

    Introverted – Interpersonal
    An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between others and self. This focus is on harmony with others.

    Extroverted – Intrapersonal
    An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within individuals outside the self. This focus is on individual empathy.

    Extroverted – Interpersonal
    An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between individuals outside of the self. This focus is on hosting, caretaking, and maintaining the community.
    Edit: It is clear that "Introverted-intrapersonal" is Fi, and "Extrovert-interpersonal" is Fe. But I suspect that "Introverted-interpersonal" and "Extroverted-intrapersonal" can get easily confused between which is Fe and which is Fi. I think that both "introverted" ones are Fi and both "extroverted" ones are Fi, but it would be interesting to try to figure it out for certain because a case could be made either way.
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  5. #195
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So how does one know if what the Fe-user agrees to something that is in fact something what he *wants* to do?
    Usually nonverbal communication. I don't have a good poker face, I think, so it's pretty obvious how I really feel. Introverted Feeling types don't actually seem to have trouble picking up on that, even if they aren't sure what it "means".



    I can tell often by my ISFJ mom's face that she doesn't like something, but she is overly willing to accommodate anything anyone needs. The problem is that when you then do a group thing that aint up her alley, she 'vibes' dutifulness and 'mild annoyance' to my Fi, which to me ruins the entire experience and group dynamic.
    It might not for anyone else in the group, though. How can you say that it ruins the group dynamic if everyone in the group hasn't weighed in? Can you tell by the way the group reacts? Is it the group, or is it actually your own perception and "vibing"?


    [quote]And for that matter - how do Fe-users stand this in others? When they guilt trip you into doing something you *really* dont feel like, but do grudgingly coz apparently it is important to them - how does it not ruin their experience since you are in fact sitting there with a bored look on your face??? [?quote]

    I'm not sure, honestly. This is why I think I need someone who isn't susceptible to guilt trips and can articulate their preferences better. Saying a lot of evasive things to spare my feelings doesn't actually make me better, it makes me feel worse, because I can sense on some level that it isn't emotionally coherent.



    ...or does your harmony vibe register differently somehow?
    I'm not sure.

    Thinking about this, I don't think that it's entirely true the Extraverted Feeling always focuses on the needs of others, and Introverted Feelings always focuses on the needs of the self (even if those needs are to be altruistic and care about others).
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    when you hear an Fi-user say that, please add the imaginary extension line in your head "in my opinion/for me". i often forget to say it. but it's what i mean. when i'm expressing feelings or opinions, i always mean it in my own personal experience, i never assume that everyone should feel like i do.
    i do - that's the part Fe users have to take from that - and the assumed imaginary extension has rarely proven itself wrong (with a couple of exceptions).

    but the part i was thinking would be useful for you to take from that is the last part - the bit about understanding how Fe can experience such statements as a sociological expectation. knowing that it's someone's opinion doesn't actually change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i have a bit more difficulty understanding what you mean here. if i say i don't want to do something, it means i individually won't do it, but of course you are free to do it yourself. maybe you mean i should consider that you want me to go with you. but if i notice that this is important to you, i will. saying "but i don't want to" might be an opening line: i tell you i don't want to do it, so your answers might be 1) "ok, i'll go alone" or 2) "but please come it's important to me". if you say 2, i'll probably join (because i feel your Fi and i feel empathy). situations like death of family, friend just broke up, etc, if i sense that my presence will be important for the people there, i will definitely go. if i sense that my presence is required "as a social nicety" or for "social etiquette", i won't.
    see but those two aren't separate - when something is required as "a society nicety", it is usually to make people less uncomfortable or to please people in one way or another, to provide comfort.. there's almost always something there. even something which might appear as disingenuous saluting your superior in a military organization when you think your superior is an idiot. the actual exchange of respect might not be genuine, but my desire for him to feel respected is - it built trust and allowed me to get what needs to get done (which is that much more important under incompetent leadership).

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    but when we arrived to the destination, my INFP friend was happy. she was in the nature and she was happy. and i was surprised again, because i saw how one way of solving issues that is so different to mine, can also work out. but, at the same time, it really got me this Fe way of solving issues, that is about ignoring the feelings that are not useful to you, and i wondered if my friend was ok or just hiding her feelings, still.

    these two possibilities are interesting...


    in the first it can be argued that your ENFJ friend wasn't ignoring her INFPs feelings at all, she was taking them into account within a larger more mature understanding that feelings changed based on circumstances, and knowing her INFP SO, she simply thought that her girlfriend would change how she feels once she gets there.


    in the 2nd possibility we have a very different scenario's - one where the ENFJ was entirely focused on the superficial appearance of things. it didn't matter how things are, only how they appeared - if she was able create a state of appearance in which everything looks fine, then as far as her Fe was concerned, things where fine.




    those appear to be conflicting, and yet in my experience they are both true.


    i know that the first is true because.. well, because i do it. i do it with the conscious awkwardness of a dork attempting to play pool with using geometry and applied physics, which has both the disadvantages of being less fluent and the advantage of being more conscious of the process behind it.


    i also see the later as true because to a great deal my problems with FJs seem to be within that realm - when i observe that it is not reality which is being changed for the better but rather the appearance of reality from their perspective - the correct wording to reflect the required atmosphere, the focus, the points of emphasize, the selective process of what gets acknowledged and what gets left under the rug, handpicking which sources are credible and which shouldn't be acknowledged, choosing the "right" point of view in which things appear to reflect the desired conclusion... its a bit like political campaign, except instead of manipulating others, it's manipulating the self.

    honestly it freaks me out - because i acknowledge the possibility that it's simply easier to see in others. the possibility that i do that too - unconsciously manipulate the narrative for my own benefit - isn't a point of pride or an expectation of others, it's something i've come to actively fear and constantly examine myself for, to the point that if a conclusion looks too comfortable, i'll examine it and reexamine it looking for it's flaws - sometimes a bit obsessively. i'm pretty sure i'm cognitively Ne, but ideologically i'm Se - i believe in a shared objective reality which we are all apart of, a larger reality of what actually is true for us to understand if we want to understand anything within it (including ourselves & and everyone else)... it scares the shit out of me. fuck - this is in my signature.



    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'd love to understand where Fe ends and So begins.
    i've often wondered the same thing... there seems to be a partial overlap.

  7. #197
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My sense of values and awareness are externalized, but moreso on the individual than the group. I can at times be less aware of what I'm feeling than what the other person in the room is feeling. As a music teacher, I now teach individual lessons because I found the group too disorienting. There were too many individual needs and signals present at once. When working with individuals, I observe their system of emotions, thoughts, and communication and I build a sense of it inside that is not based primarily on me or social norms, but on that specific person. This takes time to achieve, but it my natural way of interacting. I like the idea of not imposing myself on them, but encouraging whatever is inside of them and developing a system of values in their best interest. My own sense of values like I said before are basic, almost ethereal, principles that can be applied differently in various contexts.
    I wonder if that's what is at the core. you don't have Fi because you are so sensitive to other people's feelings that you internalize them. would you agree? i'm also surprised to read that an INFJ would be so sensitive to other people's emotions, i thought that was the realm of Fi. anyway,this is all very fascinating to me

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    A while ago I came up with a way of defining four "quadrants" based on Fe and Fi that helped to explain my variation of it. It has to do with which system, intra- or inter-personal, is the one used, but then added from which vantage point, introverted or extroverted, that system is observed. I would personally be "extroverted-intrapersonal".

    Edit: It is clear that "Introverted-intrapersonal" is Fi, and "Extrovert-interpersonal" is Fe. But I suspect that "Introverted-interpersonal" and "Extroverted-intrapersonal" can get easily confused between which is Fe and which is Fi. I think that both "introverted" ones are Fi and both "extroverted" ones are Fi, but it would be interesting to try to figure it out for certain because a case could be made either way.
    i'm sorry but i have to disagree. i identify with both introverted intrapersonal and introverted interpersonal. i think they go side by side. my awareness of my emotions helps me have empathy for other people's emotions, as an individual. and if i think of the Fi-dom that is closest to me, my INFP girlfriend, then she's also like that (and more than me): very good at self-awareness, but also very good at harmony with other people.

  8. #198
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I wonder if that's what is at the core. you don't have Fi because you are so sensitive to other people's feelings that you internalize them. would you agree? i'm also surprised to read that an INFJ would be so sensitive to other people's emotions, i thought that was the realm of Fi. anyway,this is all very fascinating to me
    Fi has a better capacity to close out the outside world to protect the inner world, and so it has more selection and choice about its empathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i'm sorry but i have to disagree. i identify with both introverted intrapersonal and introverted interpersonal. i think they go side by side. my awareness of my emotions helps me have empathy for other people's emotions, as an individual. and if i think of the Fi-dom that is closest to me, my INFP girlfriend, then she's also like that (and more than me): very good at self-awareness, but also very good at harmony with other people.
    I don't think we do disagree because I do not see any reason a person would have to be stuck in one of those styles. Those are just defining ways of relating self to the external world. I don't consider myself stuck in just one approach. I've even known people who switch between introverted-intrapersonal and extroverted-interpersonal. They have a way of compartmentalizing the inner and outer worlds. I personally relate mostly to extroverted-intrapersonal, but also introverted-interpersonal. I'm not entirely disconnected from myself, but just have the capacity for this. People are much too fluid and dynamic as systems to be defined in one- or two-dimensional concepts. I think this is an important point for interpreting MBTI. I personally reject all rigid and dogmatic approaches to personality, temperament, and psychology in general. It's a big mistake that causes confusion.

    Edit: While understanding the Self can be a way to reach enlightenment and a sense of the whole of everything, there is a possible danger of projecting the qualities of self onto other individuals. This has happened to me with the Fi-doms I know and love. They tend to tell me what I'm feeling, what my motivations are, because they are using their own self as the point of reference. They imagine what they would have to be feeling to do the actions that I do. Since I process things differently, we all end up getting hurt because they don't just ask me and believe me when I try to explain it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  9. #199
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    but the part i was thinking would be useful for you to take from that is the last part - the bit about understanding how Fe can experience such statements as a sociological expectation. knowing that it's someone's opinion doesn't actually change that.
    i did. thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    see but those two aren't separate - when something is required as "a society nicety", it is usually to make people less uncomfortable or to please people in one way or another, to provide comfort.. there's almost always something there. even something which might appear as disingenuous saluting your superior in a military organization when you think your superior is an idiot. the actual exchange of respect might not be genuine, but my desire for him to feel respected is - it built trust and allowed me to get what needs to get done (which is that much more important under incompetent leadership).
    Yes. This is what I know I still have to work on, and I want to do it. We are entering So-sphere here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    honestly it freaks me out - because i acknowledge the possibility that it's simply easier to see in others. the possibility that i do that too - unconsciously manipulate the narrative for my own benefit - isn't a point of pride or an expectation of others, it's something i've come to actively fear and constantly examine myself for, to the point that if a conclusion looks too comfortable, i'll examine it and reexamine it looking for it's flaws - sometimes a bit obsessively.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I don't think we do disagree because I do not see any reason a person would have to be stuck in one of those styles. Those are just defining ways of relating self to the external world. I don't consider myself stuck in just one approach. I've even known people who switch between introverted-intrapersonal and extroverted-interpersonal. They have a way of compartmentalizing the inner and outer worlds. I personally relate mostly to extroverted-intrapersonal, but also introverted-interpersonal. I'm not entirely disconnected from myself, but just have the capacity for this. People are much too fluid and dynamic as systems to be defined in one- or two-dimensional concepts. I think this is an important point for interpreting MBTI. I personally reject all rigid and dogmatic approaches to personality, temperament, and psychology in general. It's a big mistake that causes confusion.
    this is probably closer to reality than the Fi/Fe division. it would also be interesting to investigate if people that are Fi-aux and Fe-aux like ourselves are more flexible in using these 4 quadrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Edit: While understanding the Self can be a way to reach enlightenment and a sense of the whole of everything, there is a possible danger of projecting the qualities of self onto other individuals. This has happened to me with the Fi-doms I know and love. They tend to tell me what I'm feeling, what my motivations are, because they are using their own self as the point of reference. They imagine what they would have to be feeling to do the actions that I do. Since I process things differently, we all end up getting hurt because they don't just ask me and believe me when I try to explain it.
    I've heard many people "complain" about this facet of Fi but I've never notice it happen, tbh. i certainly don't talk much in affirmatives, i'm more of a "what if?" / "maybe" / "have you thought about" kind of person.
    On a second thought, both my ENFJ mum and INFP girlfriend tend to do a lot of "you should do this" "you should be that" "you should change that", which i find really annoying. but it's not the same thing as hearing "you are feeling this or that".

  10. #200
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You can usually tell how much a Fe user wants to do something by the degree of enthusiasm shown, based on the range of emotion you usually see from them. So for example, I might say, "Let's get together for coffee sometime soon". However, I may or may not follow up on initiating that depending on how the other person responds. Sometimes I may even state something as a "I'm going to do such and such", but depending on the reaction of certain important people to me (even though unspoken and only read through degree of enthusiasm/word choice/hesitation etc), I may not actually do it, or will revamp how I do it. It isn't verbalized, but it sounds as loud to me as if it were verbalized. Therefore sometimes I may react to what sounds like a very clear message from someone, even though they didn't really commit to saying anything out loud.

    I think Mane made an excellent point. (Actually, he did an excellent job of explaining my major frustration with Fi and articulating to a Fi user why Fe is also genuine). There are many things that I'm not all that jazzed about doing. However, the way I would make the other person feel by doing those things is in some cases worth it, especially if it is just a personal preference. That part is truly genuine and if the only way to accomplish it is through X, then I guess I'll do X and do it in such a way that doesn't make the other person feel that I am only doing so under duress (because that is no gift at all to anyone).

    I think this is why a Fi users non-expression/negative emotion/clear lack of enthusiasm for something important to the other person can anger Fe users after awhile, especially if they feel they have invested pretty heavily in the person and now need their interest/enthusiasm or support in some way. It's seen as the person being willing to take whatever you give, but not reciprocate with an open heart because it wouldn't be authentic to how they feel in the moment (even if that feeling could change). For the Fe user (well, at least this one), they would be more likely to evaluate the closeness of their relationship, what might be reasonable to expect/hope for given the amount they have or haven't put in, and how much the thing being requested really matters to both parties. (At it's best), it takes both views into account and tries to find something that works for both, but if someone does have to suck something unpleasant up, they are expected to do it with a reasonably cheerful attitude, especially if the negative part is beyond the other person's control, and with the understanding that the other person will try to make it up to them somehow. I'm not sure about this, but I wonder if Fe users sort of see it as depositing and withdrawing from each other's emotional bank accounts. Even if the "money" is freely offered, it is understood that if it is accepted, the person accepting the "money" is obligating themselves to make a deposit of some sort in the future so that the relationship doesn't become one-sided and unfair. I don't think it is a matter of constantly tallying up totals, but when it does start seeming that one person is being capricious with the "funds" or is unwilling to help the other when they are in desperate need, even though they have been willing to accept stuff in the past, that's when the frustration starts to build.

    I don't think it is so much a matter of demanding a specific, but not verbalized expected response that puts the Fi user in a no win position. It's just that actions are usually seen more definitely as either a deposit or a withdrawal, rather than something neutral and so when the consideration for the other person doesn't appear to be reciprocated, Fe users are more likely to read a much deeper more negative message into it than was intended.

    *Don't kill me please
    *Also, I'm not sure how much of this is increased by being a SO dom and by being a Ni user.

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