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  1. #11
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Do you mean when Fe users say "to be honest"?

  2. #12
    WALMART
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    My sister has a knack for making conjectures sound like absolute truth.

    When seeing my ex, "Ugh, I'm glad girls are taking care of themselves again."

    When hearing an awesome garage band, "Ugh, I'm glad people are focusing on good music again."

    Et cetera, ad infinitum.

    Edit: I see I don't belong here. Oops.

  3. #13
    Riva
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    Oh gosh another fe/fi thread. Fe users brace yourself because another fe is fake and shallow shit storm is heading this way. Good luck!

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't like "You should." Unless it's a joke, like "You should totally slash her tires!"

    Edit:

    AFAIK.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    I'm really aware of how often I use personal stories or even just speak in "I" terms, but it feels so out I'd my comfort zone to tell people what they should do! A lot of times, when I start to talk about another person's problems, I immediately get this 'WARNING! WARNING! You can't tell them how to live their life. You don't know what it's like to be in their situation. How dare you assume you know what's best for them." Then I relate it back to myself as a last-ditch effort to not over-step my bounds.

    I'm loving all the tips though. I can totally repeat things back and ask questions to better understand the problem. As long as its not too invasive and prying (which is what I fear when taking that approach).

    @IndyAnnaJoan, so funny about your Fe sister thinking you're always trying to be rebellious! That's the story of my life! I'm the only non-Fe user on my family, and I've encountered that forever.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I'm really aware of how often I use personal stories or even just speak in "I" terms, but it feels so out I'd my comfort zone to tell people what they should do! A lot of times, when I start to talk about another person's problems, I immediately get this 'WARNING! WARNING! You can't tell them how to live their life. You don't know what it's like to be in their situation. How dare you assume you know what's best for them." Then I relate it back to myself as a last-ditch effort to not over-step my bounds.
    I do that, too. Because, really what do I know? Not much, except I have some idea about myself, my experiences, and how I think I might feel or have maybe felt similarly. I feel fairly comfortable with talking about my own experiences, but outside of that, I know more or less Jack. So when someone says *this* happened, I want to put myself in their shoes the best I can so I rummage my brain for something that seems similar and see if that's what they mean. If we're kind of on the same page, my brain can proceed. IOW, your train isn't taking off with me still standing at the station.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #17
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @fidelia

    You're just full of empathy. I appreciate your thoughtful recognition of these things. I should write one in return, when I get the time to make a proper list.

    In the meantime a few notes/questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - not very playful
    Aren't you? I never thought of it that way. Maybe the FJs aren't as much (TPs on the other hand...). Now I wonder if my playfulness is irritating.

    A ESFJ family friend of mine was recently talking about how she got a free sample of cat biscuits (or kibbles, or whatever North Americans call them) in the mail. She remarked that they were "delicious", meaning that her cat thought they were, but I've been teasing her about her eating them ever since. She just sighs and rolls her eyes every time. I should stop, but I can't help myself. FJs seem to take this as nitpicky criticism of her misspeaking (ie. "haha, look how you screwed up!"). Really, I'm just laughing at the idea of it and generally being silly and cheeky.

    - unwilling to listen to all people's ideas equally - the speaker and my history with them, and their areas of expertise matter to me as much as the idea
    Really? I never thought of it like that. Are you saying this is something you acknowledge in yourself or something that Fi users have drubbed into you? I would say I'm regularly swayed by bias, but perhaps I'm more aware of it when I am - ie. it's more of a conscious choice to discount information. In that way it seems like a rational decision, rather than prejudice (whether it is, is harder to say). Maybe Fi users are more bothered by (what we perceive as) unconscious bias?

    - keep wanting to know WHY they are telling me something so I can figure out how to react appropriately.
    I think the "why" can be important to Fi, but instead, I want to know WHY I should do something. It's like that information vs direction aspect but with the roles reversed - "why this information?" vs. "why this action?"

    - expecting others to read subtext in what I say
    Everyone expects this. But I think Fe subtext is just more layered and complex (well, it is to me ).

    - Don't know if this is just me, but since I feel that way and I'm a Fe user I'll just say it. I hate emotional surprises. Even if something is going to be negative, I'll be fine with it, as long as I know what to expect. Fi seems a little more spontaneous and it scares me a bit because I don't do well dealing with my own emotions on the fly. There's too much information to wade through. I'd rather prepare myself ahead of time. I think it seems a bit stiff and stick in the muddish to Fi though.
    Really? I never saw things that way. I don't see it as "stick in the muddish". Perhaps I might be impatient with someone that can't keep up. I suppose it depends on how this discomfort manifests for you.

    - I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better.
    Well, I'm not entirely sure what I need from others when I'm in distress, but frankly I'm used to the disappointment of not getting it. I sort of feel like, if I believe they can't fix the problem, enable me to fix it or give me advice I couldn't figure out myself, then I'll just keep it to myself and spare myself the grief (which is most of the time). There are other ways to be supportive that I like, but I don't know how to describe them - and often it's different every time. Sometimes it's just shutting up and not pestering me on a painful subject. Another one I would describe as a soft Te approach when I feel stuck in a difficult situation: it's sympathetic but gently motivating me and showing me the path. Recently, my INTJ friend spoke to me in this way on a problem I've been having, and it was a rare moment of great pleasure for someone to actually get it right.

    Perhaps you could say that, ideally, what I need is to feel empowered to deal with the situation or make the best decision myself. However, I realise that's a vague thing to ask for.

    - I also am not sure how to make my needs for verbal appreciation known. When I show appreciation verbally or in writing for most Fi users, it makes them uncomfortable. I think they'd prefer I make them something homemade or something more indirect that shows my thanks instead.
    It might make us uncomfortable but it may be valued all the same. I can't say I'm good at words of affirmation. Can you give an example of an everyday situation where someone gave you the right sort of verbal appreciation?

    - moodiness and inconsistency really makes me uncomfortable. It feels emotionally threatening and undermines my trust. It also feels very personally directed even when it is not. Fi users seem to have a higher tolerance for this.
    Why is it emotionally threatening?

    - not attempting to do something you don't really want to (but don't have any value-based conviction against) for the sake of someone you care about seems like a personal slap in the face to me. I think maybe Fi users see it more separately from the person in question.
    What sorts of things are you talking about?

    - Fi seems more selective about who it cares about but really goes all out when it does. In some ways, I feel like I want someone to show basic regard for me, even if we are just casual friends, but I need someone who can remain objective when I bring up a situation that's bothering me. I feel like I'm in the middle of a river with a swiftly moving current and the Fi user just jumps in with me instead of throwing me a rope from the safety of the bank and pulling me onto dry land. I need to figure out how to neither feel rebuffed by the emotional distance initially, nor overwhelmed by the emotional intensity afterwards.


    That is seriously hilarious to picture. Instead of saving you from drowning, they panic, leap in and drown with you. I'm sure I've seen that scene in some comedy before.

    I wish I knew how to rescue Fe users. I try to sympathise and that doesn't seem to help. Then I offer advice/suggestions and it offends them.

    Drowning seems like an easier option.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #18
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    You didn't say anything that actually makes me feel offended. If I had to think about it, I think what offends me is people trying to control what I am feeling to make it socially-acceptable/not acknowledging my feelings because they aren't socially acceptable. I think this is my only issue with Fe-users.
    I'm going to comment on your sentences individually:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In my experience, I think I irritate Fi users in the following ways (keep in mind that both Fe and Fi are differently flavoured depending on what other functions are mixed in and what position those functions have).

    - not very playful
    - unwilling to listen to all people's ideas equally - the speaker and my history with them, and their areas of expertise matter to me as much as the idea ->this is very interesting to me and I'll remember it when talking to Fe users
    - keep wanting to know WHY they are telling me something so I can figure out how to react appropriately. What is the objective? I discovered in one thread recently that they tend to let things evolve, see what parts they have and then make whatever machine they can. I start with the machine I want to create in mind, and then sort the conversation parts according to what is useful in making that machine and what isn't. ->this sounds like Ni
    - only want to engage in a conversation if it's going to have some kind of productive outcome
    - need for privacy if you are going to call someone out on something, rather than just getting everything out in the open.->but i agree with this
    - tendency to need to DO something to feel that I am helping, rather than just letting the person tell me what they need.->but i'm also like this
    - expecting others to read subtext in what I say ->but i'm also like this
    - not being willing to resolve conflict or talk about things in the moment because I want time for my emotions to cool so I can regain a more objective perspective.->this can feel frustrating to me because i'm hot-headed - what you said below about ENFPs rings a bell to me - but it doesn't feel offensive at all, and i can understand and respect your decision
    - making what sounds like definite judgements on a situation or on people (these don't sound as definite to me as they do to a Fi hearer - they are more like a Te or Ne hypothesis that is put out there until something that fits better is found).->this is definitely something i can find offensive
    - asking questions that may sound intrusive or invasive (to me they are expressions of interest or care).->but i also do this...maybe it would feel offensive only if you were too blunt when doing so, or if i didn't understand that you are doing it to help me. the important thing here is still to respect/acknowledging what i'm feeling, if you don't step on that, then everything you do is fine
    - this is maybe Te/Ti but I have a tendency towards walls of text and too many qualifiers and rabbit trails.->this could be true, because i don't to it - i tend to be short - but i don't find it offensive!?
    - Don't know if this is just me, but since I feel that way and I'm a Fe user I'll just say it. I hate emotional surprises. Even if something is going to be negative, I'll be fine with it, as long as I know what to expect. Fi seems a little more spontaneous and it scares me a bit because I don't do well dealing with my own emotions on the fly. There's too much information to wade through. I'd rather prepare myself ahead of time. I think it seems a bit stiff and stick in the muddish to Fi though. ->i accept it, and it's a difference, but it's not offensive

    Some things I have had to hammer through are:

    - realizing that Fi users are trying to relate to the situation when they talk about their own experiences. They aren't making the situation all about them. ->correct
    - understanding that I need to volunteer more information instead of feeling rejected if a Fi user doesn't seek out information. They are trying to respect my privacy. ->correct
    - I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better. ->it's just important that i understand that you care. just don't pretend like it isn't happening, because if you do then we go into initial situation where i feel like you're not acknowledging my feelings. but after that, you can react like you want. the only important thing for me is that i feel acknowledged or "understood"
    - I also am not sure how to make my needs for verbal appreciation known. When I show appreciation verbally or in writing for most Fi users, it makes them uncomfortable. I think they'd prefer I make them something homemade or something more indirect that shows my thanks instead. ->i don't agree with this and this was the main thing that made we want to comment on your post. i like verbal appreciation, not people doing things for me
    - I think this is more Ne/Ni stuff, but sometimes I get impatient with being offered "uncooked" ideas - stuff that has not been thought through to conclusion, because I mistake it for being offered a "cooked" but odd-tasting conclusion. I'm getting better at recognizing this sooner, but I still sometimes get kind of judgey and frustrated before I remember. ->yes, this is Ne/Ni
    - moodiness and inconsistency really makes me uncomfortable. It feels emotionally threatening and undermines my trust. It also feels very personally directed even when it is not. Fi users seem to have a higher tolerance for this. ->this is good advice, thanks
    - not attempting to do something you don't really want to (but don't have any value-based conviction against) for the sake of someone you care about seems like a personal slap in the face to me. I think maybe Fi users see it more separately from the person in question.->this is good advice, thanks
    - not taking what seem to me very clearly delineated danger warnings to heart and then feeling upset when I get blunt. I still am not sure what goes wrong there. From one of the threads I think I concluded that the signals are seen but the Fi user is protesting against their unfairness. But I'm not sure if that's accurate, and if it was accurate in that situation, how generalized to Fi that is or isn't.
    - Ne/Fi people sometimes tend to say things in the heat of the moment that they mean only then and assume others know that. They also sometimes are more general than my Ti would like (is that more of a Te/Ti deal?).->not really, to be honest. actually, things said in the heat of the moment are the absolute truth, and i'm just not considering the other person's feelings or the bigger context.so later i might be embarrassed of having said it without taking into consideration the other person's feelings; but it doesn't make them less true....i guess it's a Te punch
    - Fi seems more selective about who it cares about but really goes all out when it does. ->i don't understand this because i care equally about someone that is close to me or a stranger, as long as i can empathize with what they are feeling. actually, i thought it was Fe users that were selective as to who they chose to help/considerIn some ways, I feel like I want someone to show basic regard for me, even if we are just casual friends, but I need someone who can remain objective when I bring up a situation that's bothering me. I feel like I'm in the middle of a river with a swiftly moving current and the Fi user just jumps in with me instead of throwing me a rope from the safety of the bank and pulling me onto dry land. I need to figure out how to neither feel rebuffed by the emotional distance initially, nor overwhelmed by the emotional intensity afterwards.

    This is rather messy and a little scattered, but maybe is a jumping off point. I'm missing a few things on both lists but can't quite remember what they are. Will edit as I remember.
    Your post was actually pretty non-offensive. However, I get along pretty well with INFJs (probably because Fe is your auxiliary function). It would be interesting to hear what an ENFJ has to say.

  9. #19
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Fidelia's post was pretty damn good.

    Ime, I've noticed that once something hits a nerve, many FPs and TJs will basically disconsider past data and show off a reaction based strictly on what I said at a given time.

    They will basically assume that the mean things (subjectively considered) I say 1% of the time (and not really directed at them, btw, but they will find a way to make it personal) are somehow "the real me" showing up, while the other 99% essentially didn't count.

    So they remain loyal friends during the 99% phase, and then eventually I'll say something that will make them lose it altogether.

    At this point, I'll usually lose the trust I once had in them as a friend - and react accordingly.

    Then they'll get disappointed with my reaction and assume that it somehow confirmed their assumptions.

    Everything I said while angry with their reactions to an apparently neutral thing I said will be used against me here.

    And it's over. Meh.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #20
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    There are a bunch of posts I'd like to answer to. Regarding why I feel the way I do about moodiness -

    It seems like the person is imposing their mood on others in an effort to either get them to do something, or inadvertently polluting the emotionally environment of everyone around them. Whether imposing those emotionas on others is intentionally done or not, it seems selfish and inconsiderate because someone may not have done anything wrong, yet has to deal with behaviour that implies they did until it wears off for the other person. Moodiness, especially in a confined space, (like on a trip) casts a pall over everyone. I find it emotionally threatening because it is unpredictable - no one (including the moody person) knows when it will start or end, and it can manifest itself in a number of ways at any time. I think most people who are moody don't see it as something personally directed, yet it affects the people around them whether or not they intend it to. I think Fe users tend to take it as "You are not doing your job. If you were, I wouldn't feel this way." I think when Fe users act moody, they are (badly) communicating that they are at the end of their string and are upset at someone and expect the person to notice and make adjustments. Fi doesn't seem to operate in the same way. Therefore, they may miss the Fe signals that something is wrong, and they also may not realize how personally some people may take their moodiness.

    Re Fi or Fe being selective. I can see what you are talking about and I think we both do this, but in different areas. Working on articulating this properly in my head because I've noticed both things at work in inverse ways.

    An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there. I think Fi is more likely to say, "It's not them. I just don't like hospitals. I'm staying home." whereas Fe reasoning might be more like, "I hate hospitals, but so and so has been there for me in the past and they need me right now because there's no one that can fill that place for them. I guess I'll go, even though I really don't want to." Another example might be going to a musical with your SO. You don't really enjoy musicals and you have no real interest in seeing this one. However, your SO has checked around and they have no one else to go with and they've offered to pay for your ticket. They'd really like to have a shared experience and it matters to them. Fi reasoning might go something like, "I have other things I'd rather do with my evening and I don't even like musicals. Is it such a big deal to go alone?" Fe reasoning might be more like, "They did this this and this that I wasn't interested in. I guess I'll go even though I don't really want to and make it fun for them". Fe focusses more on the fairness aspect and also how it will impact on other people. More priority is given to sacrifice for people closer to them, because more investment has been offered in the past which obligates. (I'm not sure about this, because this might only be NFJ Fe, or it might be more individual than that). Fi is much more about the individual and being authentic to their feelings instead of doing things out of obligation????? (I don't really want to presume to say, because I'm not sure what it's about). I'm not even sure if these examples sound fair to Fi users, but that is the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

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