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  1. #181
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    its now been two years. i was talking with my ENFJ mother and ISFJ sister. they usually gang up on me. my mother was suggesting to my sister that she spend new years with me. my sister replied (totally out of the blue, because we've been in cordial mood lately and i've done nothing to hurt her): "as if it would be funny to spend newsyears with pinkgraffiti". my answer "excuse me? i think i treated you kindly when you came to my house? i opened the doors of my home. instead, you were rude. you made me wait 4 hours for you".
    unexpectedly, my mother and sister ganged up on me (as they always do). my mum said i was being "mean". my sister said i was "impolite". and the day after, my sister was still angry about this.
    and i don't understand. if i was the one that was offended, then why can't i tell them how i feel and why should she feel offended??
    Are they the kind of people to pull hurtful things out of thin air or get defensive super easy? I’ve known people who react to hurt or accusations by throwing out any ol’ accusation in return. It’s a knee jerk response, completely impulsive, that basically says, “Oh yeah? Well I don’t have to listen to you, because that one time…” It’s a way of deflecting blame- a coping mechanism because the person can’t handle getting blamed for anything. And anyway, my point is that if someone does this themselves regularly, then that’s all they’ll 'hear' when other people bring up past incidents of hurt. It will just look like the other person using that coping mechanism to deflect blame instead of expressing genuine feeling.

    Same goes for shrugging it off when you complain about something. If they generally complain to others as means to achieving some desired end more than to genuinely express how something is making them feel- then that’s all they’ll hear when you complain. It won’t occur to them that you’re actually trying to express how you feel unless it’s an experience they’re familiar with.

    At any rate, it sounds like a bunch of rude and dismissive behavior regardless of 'function'.
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  2. #182
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Are they the kind of people to pull hurtful things out of thin air or get defensive super easy? I’ve known people who react to hurt or accusations by throwing out any ol’ accusation in return. It’s a knee jerk response, completely impulsive, that basically says, “Oh yeah? Well I don’t have to listen to you, because that one time…” It’s a way of deflecting blame- a coping mechanism because the person can’t handle getting blamed for anything. And anyway, my point is that if someone does this themselves regularly, then that’s all they’ll 'hear' when other people bring up past incidents of hurt. It will just look like the other person using that coping mechanism to deflect blame instead of expressing genuine feeling.

    Same goes for shrugging it off when you complain about something. If they generally complain to others as means to achieving some desired end more than to genuinely express how something is making them feel- then that’s all they’ll hear when you complain. It won’t occur to them that you’re actually trying to express how you feel unless it’s an experience they’re familiar with.

    At any rate, it sounds like a bunch of rude and dismissive behavior regardless of 'function'.
    no, they just always have the moral highground, i can never touch them. and then i'm always left baffled, because i rationalise that them being Fe users means they don't have fixed morals and thus never feel obliged to understand when i'm offended

    see, maybe i have a negative image of Fe-users just because i have negative examples to work with. in that case, i'm sorry :/

  3. #183
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ok, what you say is important, but is not my real problem with Fe. you are talking about "good" Fe, when Fe is kind and considerate of other people's needs. i appreciate this very much (grew up with an ENFJ mother) and like to protect and praise my ENFJ and INFJ friends when they are like this. but this is one-on-one communication with an Fe user, and i can handle it mostly fine i think.
    I was focusing on a bit of background regarding it and how it can also relate to what you were doing as the hostess.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    what i might have more difficulty comprehending is Fe working in social groups. i think this is my biggy. when they make me feel like i have to change myself to accommodate a group. i had an ESFJ supervisor who just drove me mad all the time. she manipulated people to form "in" and "out" groups and tried to dictate our working environment, from imposing the radio station to imposing certain times and places where we should all have lunch together, to forcing us to follow her conversation topics and allocate time to hear her speak about trivial issues. she was good at being PR and putting people together, but completely tyrannical in allowing each one of us to have our personal liberties.
    i guess she was an extreme. so let me get back to what i wanted to say. i have difficulty following through with social conventions, i don't understand what seem to be the "unwritten laws of social etiquette", and this sphere seems to be ruled by Fe-users. so it would be nice if you could give me some tips on what those rules are. and how i should behave so that it is clear to Fe-users that i'm not rude and mean no harm (i'm just not experienced in being socially-nice like them). you see, my only rule is to respect each person's free will and not step on anyone's toes (i guess this is Fi). but it seems that this isn't enough with Fe-users (am i confusing Fe-users with So-doms? so sorry if it's the case, then i'm an idiot)
    What is difficult is that you are dealing with people who are not following through with social conventions. I'm actually not good at all unwritten social etiquette, and some other posters may be able to give better advice.

    My first question is to just ask if there is something you would like to do in response to their behavior?

    I think the underlying principle for social dynamics is that it is not possible to control another person's behavior, so all we can do is control our reaction to it. The only things I would know to do start with what I described before - to plan for their inconsistencies by not investing too much time into a particular plan involving them. Also, to be sure that your own needs are not dependent on them. Eat when you are hungry, bring a snack if you are out with them and they won't stop for food, etc. If you want them to experience consequences for their behavior missing a dinner, then if you plan a dinner, invite other people and eat on time. Let them eat the leftovers whenever they arrive.

    If you feel ganged up on, then work towards establishing friendships that help you have the support you need. Involve these friends in your family gatherings so they can stick up for you.

    Would any of that be helpful or do you feel it would be better to talk about these things? Long standing problems in which everyone knows you feel hurt are harder to talk through.


    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    no, they just always have the moral highground, i can never touch them. and then i'm always left baffled, because i rationalise that them being Fe users means they don't have fixed morals and thus never feel obliged to understand when i'm offended

    see, maybe i have a negative image of Fe-users just because i have negative examples to work with. in that case, i'm sorry :/
    I know there is a lot of background that is too hard to communicate online, but in a way their morals sound as though they are consistently in their favor. I'm not sure how that relates to Fe because there is a strong internal component. They are disregarding much of what is outside of themselves.

    My morals are in a way not fixed because they are based on somewhat ethereal principles that are applied differently in different contexts. For example, I like to see the members of my family feel connected to their immediate, most important community and to feel at peace with these people. For that reason I would never ever want them to change their political or religious perspectives. Although I definitely disagree with some of their positions, I can see that it helps them to form community, and so I see it as contextual. I also change my diet to a large extent in conjunction with what my husband needs to feel healthy. I would probably be vegan, and definitely vegetarian on my own, but I eat more like he does because there is a context of overall increased health. In this way I subjugate my own specific preferences in favor of greater overall benefit. Perhaps the negative is extracting group benefit for the individual? I'm not sure that sounds specifically like Fe, but perhaps the group focus is enough to make it so? Also forcing people to do what you think is correct is seen as Fe, but that is also more individual based than what I am talking about. Perhaps if the focus is group uniformity it becomes more Fe, but that is Fe beholden to personal will which is not entirely externalized.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  4. #184
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    @pinkgraffiti, something about this wasn't quite clicking at first. Let me ask you this, when you say that they always take the moral high ground, and that you doubt your own abilities with social etiquette, does that leave you wondering if you did do something wrong when interacting with them?

    If that is the case, just realize that we can only do our best, and in what you wrote here it sounds like they were overall being inconsiderate. I would suggest responding to their disapproval by telling them that you are sorry, but need them to let you know ahead of time what's going on (if they are going to be late, etc). Put some responsibilities on them to communicate what is going on and then tell them you would try to accommodate if you had only known. Something along those lines is non-confrontational (if that is the result you want), but still demonstrates that your motives are absolutely on any moral high ground, but that you need something from them in order to make it work. Is that on the right track?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #185
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    ok - @pinkgraffiti - it sounded like you wanted to better understand their perspectives from someone who has Fe... so i tried somewhat forcefully putting myself in the positions of the people in your story and asking myself why would i do/feel the way they express - so while it might sound judgmental - i'm not trying to judge you so much as try to understand why they judged you negatively (with the obvious disclaimer that its very unlikely that i'm an FJ).

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    and i don't understand. if i was the one that was offended, then why can't i tell them how i feel and why should she feel offended??
    i can see a number of reasons for them to get upset over that:

    1. you accused them both of being disrespectful towards you. the act of accusation - even if your basis is entirely true - is still in itself quite a shiv in harmony's gut. while it might be true that your sister hinted towards the previous conflict, from her perspective you where the one to bring it up to the surface. and as far as your mother, who didn't seem to have even thought of the incident at all while she was raising the suggestion, got accused out of the blue of being disrespectful towards you two years after the fact.

    2. harmony aside, from their perspective, they went abroad to see you, they had to navigate a city that i am guessing they didn't know (at least your sister didn't). considering the amount of effort placed by them to see you, finding that you resented them for being 4 hours late... you can understand why that might seem a little bit disproportional and petty? it's even possible that it's entirely their fault - that they got distracted by tourist attractions and in the spirit of vacation decided to be spontaneous about seen something - although from what you describe it doesn't sound like it (at the very least they didn't stop for food on the way) - even then, having decided to take a few days of their lives to see you and here you are complaining about 4 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    second example: i was applying to jobs as a researcher. i contacted one group leader and we applied for grant applications. he asked me not to apply for jobs with anyone else. i respected this for one year, and for one year we applied to grants and we failed all of them. so after 1 year i told him i was going to contact other groups. and he gave me his blessing. i still had one application pending with him.
    ok, all fine. so i contact a new group. we apply for grants. 6 months later we receive a grant. i accept the position, and we're happy.
    at the same time, the 1st group leader tells me we've won that pending grant application. i tell him i've just accepted a position somewhere else, and that i'm sorry but i will have to decline. he gets angry. i don't get it: he'd told me to search for other groups...
    he contacts the other group. the other group (ENFJ boss) feels put in an awkward position. and tells me i should have told her about the 1st job application. and that i should apologise to 1st boss for not telling him about her, and apologise to her for not telling her about 1st boss.
    i did all she asked. because she's my boss. but why did i have to tell them about the other job application? it doesn't seem very professional to me?
    i'd wager the first boss was angry because while he might have tried to do the right thing at the time and not give you any false hopes or leave you hanging - he didn't take responsibility for that choice. so while he was working for the grant, he was fantasizing about actually getting the grant and dreaming up his dream team and you where already within it, and you took that fantasy away. read: manchild.
    it sounds to me like the 2nd boss was mad because the first boss made him feel understandably uncomfortable and feeling guilty for hiring you by suggesting that in the process he was screwing the first boss over, and redirected that guilt on you.

    while both aren't reacting the most mature ways - i will say though that the 2nd boss isn't wrong in what he is telling you to do. it doesn't matter how safe you drive and if you care for every law in the book, if you end up driving over someone's pet, it's still your wheel over someone's pet. my point is that even if you did nothing wrong on any ethical level and you ended up screwing someone over completely circumstantially - you can still take responsibility and apologies for the consequences it has on others (in this case causing distress and possibly delays).

  6. #186
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My first question is to just ask if there is something you would like to do in response to their behavior?
    my way of dealing with things is i like to be honest and authentic. i like feelings to be out in the open and to be discussed. i care less for social graces than i do about a person genuinely feeling alright. i think we've discussed this before with fidelia and her examples of the person in the car and...(something else i forgot).

    the problem i face with Fe-users who are close to me is that that rule seems not to apply. social graces, or group unity, or anything else that i would call "falsity" (and i don't mean to offend but it's the way it feels like to me) seem to be more important than authenticity.

    so, when i'm in these situations, when i have unresolved issues with Fe users, i really don't know how to act. because if i express my feelings, i'm deemed self-centered, or inconsiderate of "the group". which is why i'm clumsily trying to understand now how an Fe user deals with these things (and sees the Fi-reaction to these things)

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think the underlying principle for social dynamics is that it is not possible to control another person's behavior, so all we can do is control our reaction to it.
    this is definitely the most important solution. i'm trying hard to learn this. but the truth is i'm still quite sensitive to other people's behavior and tend to attribute the blame to myself, when in doubt (i don't know if this is common of Fi users or just myself)

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The only things I would know to do start with what I described before - to plan for their inconsistencies by not investing too much time into a particular plan involving them. Also, to be sure that your own needs are not dependent on them. Eat when you are hungry, bring a snack if you are out with them and they won't stop for food, etc. If you want them to experience consequences for their behavior missing a dinner, then if you plan a dinner, invite other people and eat on time. Let them eat the leftovers whenever they arrive.
    this is solid advice but only works after I've seen it happen a couple of times/the pattern (Si).

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    If you feel ganged up on, then work towards establishing friendships that help you have the support you need. Involve these friends in your family gatherings so they can stick up for you.
    interesting advice. doesn't work for the family because i only see them a couple of days a year. but it's useful for work situations, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My morals are in a way not fixed because they are based on somewhat ethereal principles that are applied differently in different contexts. For example, I like to see the members of my family feel connected to their immediate, most important community and to feel at peace with these people. For that reason I would never ever want them to change their political or religious perspectives. Although I definitely disagree with some of their positions, I can see that it helps them to form community, and so I see it as contextual. I also change my diet to a large extent in conjunction with what my husband needs to feel healthy. I would probably be vegan, and definitely vegetarian on my own, but I eat more like he does because there is a context of overall increased health. In this way I subjugate my own specific preferences in favor of greater overall benefit. Perhaps the negative is extracting group benefit for the individual? I'm not sure that sounds specifically like Fe, but perhaps the group focus is enough to make it so? Also forcing people to do what you think is correct is seen as Fe, but that is also more individual based than what I am talking about. Perhaps if the focus is group uniformity it becomes more Fe, but that is Fe beholden to personal will which is not entirely externalized.
    see, those morals sound like my morals. i'd do all the things you said. but i wouldn't attribute them to Fe necessarily [i'm starting to be afraid that by the end of the conversation i'll have realised i'm actually an ENFJ in disguise ahah]


    @Mane
    wow i love all of your post. you understood everything so well. and gave me a perspective outside of my own.
    i want to take you with me in my pocket and use you everytime i need an Fe translator (seriously, for an ENTP, it seems as if you grasp Fe really well, thank you and congrats)

    still, the issue is not solved. i didn't want to dwell on my problems, i wanted to know what it's like for Fe-users to communicate with Fi-users and how I can improve my communication with you guys (and avoid diplomatic incidents)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @Mane
    wow i love all of your post. you understood everything so well. and gave me a perspective outside of my own.
    i want to take you with me in my pocket and use you everytime i need an Fe translator (seriously, for an ENTP, it seems as if you grasp Fe really well, thank you and congrats)

    still, the issue is not solved. i didn't want to dwell on my problems, i wanted to know what it's like for Fe-users to communicate with Fi-users and how I can improve my communication with you guys (and avoid diplomatic incidents)
    well, i suppose i'm in a similar/opposite position to yours in at least one way - my sister & mother are both FPs (making me the only Fe user in my immediate family).
    on a more general level, I've also been mentally exploring lately the action/reaction dynamic of communication mechanisms - the relationship & dissonance between what gets said and what gets heard... it's surprisingly not obvious - not between Fe users and other Fe users, not between Fi users and other Fi users, and there are certainly many mistranslations between the two.

    obvious rather repetitive one at the tip of my tongue:

    ethical declarations: "no! that's just wrong!"
    your Fi expresses: that something doesn't feel right to them - the feeling about what should or shouldn't be done.
    what my Fe hears: the dangerous and arrogant expectation to take someone's moral authority on blind faith.

    now, i know that the perceived arrogance isn't always the case - i've talked to Fi users as they themselves tried understanding & verbalizing where their stance comes from, struggled with filtering between what is identifiable for them and what is simply an ad hoc rationalization. i know that there's often a certain degree of humility involved, a sense of ignorance and in some cases helplessness in trying to understand yourself and where you are coming from in an Fi manner. i also realize that this can be perceived in the exact opposite way - that it is revealing on my own hidden assumption that everything can be understood, and that this assumption in itself can be perceived as arrogant (though i tend to subconsciously assume it for everyone, so i don't think it is). further more, my experience is that Fi conclusions can usually be reverse engineered - sometime's it's applicable and sometimes it isn't.

    but what i think isn't easily understood in the Fi side of things, is the translation between Fi expression and Fe expectation - something which i think is actually a lot more powerful in FJs - what you say as your own, my Fe ear hears as a social expectation about how i should act and what i should do - whether i react in accordance to it reject it - it is still now part of my relationship with my social surrounding (yourself included).

    wishes: "but i don't want too!"
    your Fi expresses: your own desire. you might not want to go to a party, to a funeral, to a wedding - it doesn't matter - the important thing is you don't feel like you really want to be there.
    what my Fe hears: so now if we are going, we are going because of me - it is my fault for putting you in a position you don't want to be - now i am the bad middle man.

    this is something which i can be a lot less understanding towards that i believe @fidelia alluded too earlier, because in my experience the Fi user does shift their position if you explain to them thoroughly why they should go, it's just that it seems it isn't obvious for Fi, especially if they have not being in the position of the people they would need to relate too, or worst - if they react in a completely different manner to similar situations.
    for instance, my ISFP sister's reaction to death & loss is a mixture of seeking distractions trying to not think of it and wanting to be alone with her thoughts. she doesn't understand why people would want to gather together on such a horrible instance. it took me a long time to explain to her why people often less lonely in their sorrow, why a sense of group affirmation can make one feel better about feeling sad, why the people who lost someone else would want to feel like there are a lot of other people their for them in their lives, why its important to help someone you know feel better about it in those situations, etc'. seriously - this took longer then the ongoing Fi/Fe convo's have being going between the INFs here (which - to my understanding - has being going on way before i joined), but she eventually got it and now willingly joins in on such events. now, less extreme matters are still more difficult to explain - explaining to an Fi user why we should go to a bar with a friend because that friend just had a break up would be harder.. and sometimes even you know, doing what others want despite having no tragedy or bad even involved... i tried explaining that when something is of very little effort for you and has a big positive impact on someone else, you'd probably end up feeling good doing it, even if the exact activity isn't what you feel like doing at that very moment.. and from my experience Fi users do often relate to feeling good about doing things for others, they just tend to relate to it after the fact.


    ...i could probably think of more... maybe if i had more specific examples in mind.

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    one more thing which caught my attention:

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    the problem i face with Fe-users who are close to me is that that rule seems not to apply. social graces, or group unity, or anything else that i would call "falsity" (and i don't mean to offend but it's the way it feels like to me) seem to be more important than authenticity.
    this is a misunderstanding i just have to clarify: what you perceive as disingenuous to one's "true emotions", is actually an inner conflict between multiply true emotions.

    this is because for the Fe, their really is an emotional desire on it's own sake, it is a genuine desire - someone might genuinely desire to not have conflicts or drama, someone might genuinely be conflicted between the need to say what they think and fearing it would hurt someone, someone might truly feel guilty for disturbing a positive social dynamic. Fe emotions & desires are genuine and they feel just as real regardless if you can relate to them or not, and whether someone choosing them over other emotions or chooses the opposite or tries to find a middle path between, it is their resolution for their own inner conflicts between multiply genuine emotions.

  9. #189
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    So how does one know if what the Fe-user agrees to something that is in fact something what he *wants* to do?

    I can tell often by my ISFJ mom's face that she doesn't like something, but she is overly willing to accommodate anything anyone needs. The problem is that when you then do a group thing that aint up her alley, she 'vibes' dutifulness and 'mild annoyance' to my Fi, which to me ruins the entire experience and group dynamic. (this came from Mane's explanation - an awesome one btw- of the sister visiting and going out of her way to visit PG)

    I mean, I always make sure you have a choice on whether or not you wanna come - dont visit me, or go do something with me if you genuinely dont feel like it, coz you'll ruin the entire group vibe of giddy excitement.

    And for that matter - how do Fe-users stand this in others? When they guilt trip you into doing something you *really* dont feel like, but do grudgingly coz apparently it is important to them - how does it not ruin their experience since you are in fact sitting there with a bored look on your face??? Why would you want that person there, since they re going to ruin your harmony vibe anyways?

    ...or does your harmony vibe register differently somehow?
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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    my way of dealing with things is i like to be honest and authentic. i like feelings to be out in the open and to be discussed. i care less for social graces than i do about a person genuinely feeling alright. i think we've discussed this before with fidelia and her examples of the person in the car and...(something else i forgot).

    the problem i face with Fe-users who are close to me is that that rule seems not to apply. social graces, or group unity, or anything else that i would call "falsity" (and i don't mean to offend but it's the way it feels like to me) seem to be more important than authenticity.
    That doesn't offend me in the least because I don't have an absolute position on social graces or group unity, but they are a means to an end, which is to help people communicate compassion and achieve a sense of peace and security. I completely understand how they can more often be false and I find that incredibly hurtful and upsetting. I also value authenticity and would describe myself as always striving for deeper authenticity. After experiencing profound miscommunication at times, I can see that there are two elements to conveying truth: my ability to express it, and the listener's ability to hear it. If I think one of those is broken, I will tend to go back to the simplest forms of communication until more trust is established between people, and then possibly explore the more complex issues. People's minds and feelings are overwhelmingly complex and once trust is broken, perception distorted, communication becomes a huge mess. Further exploration can create levels of entanglement I don't know what to do with. This happened with my family once, and so I went back to sending special gifts, giving genuine compliments, and sending cute and funny pictures.

    I also would like to emphasize in this thread and others that it can be a problem to place a binary system of Fi-users vs. Fe-users onto the complexity of humanity. These concepts are strongly correlated with intrapersonal and interpersonal values and awareness. One cannot function as a human being without using some of both. I feel comfortable with the idea that I use both Fi and Fe, and I think it is a rare person who uses only one approach. There is no instance I know of in which a binary framework can meaningfully represent the complexity of humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    so, when i'm in these situations, when i have unresolved issues with Fe users, i really don't know how to act. because if i express my feelings, i'm deemed self-centered, or inconsiderate of "the group". which is why i'm clumsily trying to understand now how an Fe user deals with these things (and sees the Fi-reaction to these things)
    I'm glad that @Mane was able to articulate some things from their imagined perspective. I had considered some of those positions, but can get overwhelmed by all the possibilities of the dynamic and will tend to stick with the position presented from the poster here as a show of trust and support. As far as how to act, it can be helpful to act in the way you would like to the dynamic to be. In the same way a bad mood can be contagious, so can a positive attitude. I had a conflict with a family member who started ignoring me, positioning their back to me, and presenting a negative dynamic after we had a conflict. As they were leaving I said to the person, "I'm going to be consistently nice to you, and not because of the way you are acting, but despite it".

    I see that as authentic because it is truth. I could have focused on saying how much they were hurting my feelings, but this is how I see it. In any exchange with a close friend or family member, there is so much that could be said, we have to choose which part to emphasize. It makes sense to emphasize whatever part will help to achieve the result we hope for in our relationship. I could never have said everything I was feeling because it would have taken years, so I picked one thing. It was absolutely authentic and true, and it was the thing that helped put the connection back on track.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So how does one know if what the Fe-user agrees to something that is in fact something what he *wants* to do?
    On some level people always choose what they "want" to do given the specific context and pros and cons. They may just not want to do it 100%. When your mom chooses something there is some payoff of harmony that motivates even if there is also a cost. Whenever I ask a person to do something, I try to always give them a graceful, easy way to say "no". "Would you like to do X? Or do you already have something else planned". I'm really sensitive to this with others and so I will sometimes even say directly that if they ever need to say "no" to me to please go ahead because it won't hurt my feelings in the least. There is a directness to Fe - especially with Fe-doms. That is partly why they can be so pressuring. They expect other people to be external and direct. I think it is hardest for the Fe-aux because they can tend to use Fe in a more reactionary way which can create the inability to say "no".

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I can tell often by my ISFJ mom's face that she doesn't like something, but she is overly willing to accommodate anything anyone needs. The problem is that when you then do a group thing that aint up her alley, she 'vibes' dutifulness and 'mild annoyance' to my Fi, which to me ruins the entire experience and group dynamic. (this came from Mane's explanation - an awesome one btw- of the sister visiting and going out of her way to visit PG)

    I mean, I always make sure you have a choice on whether or not you wanna come - dont visit me, or go do something with me if you genuinely dont feel like it, coz you'll ruin the entire group vibe of giddy excitement.

    And for that matter - how do Fe-users stand this in others? When they guilt trip you into doing something you *really* dont feel like, but do grudgingly coz apparently it is important to them - how does it not ruin their experience since you are in fact sitting there with a bored look on your face??? Why would you want that person there, since they re going to ruin your harmony vibe anyways?

    ...or does your harmony vibe register differently somehow?
    That is only the case for extremely external people who do not focus on internal feelings about things. I have no personal idea how to answer your question except that I've seen Fe-dom guilt-trippers who were not emotionally sensitive at all. If someone guilt trips them, it doesn't have the same impact it does on a sensitive person. It is just like saying "I need this from you". I think there are also guilt-trippers who have a lot of pent-up hurt and cynicism and so have given up on people genuinely responding and so there is an element of anger (this is what I have to do to have any type of relationship with you). I personally do my best to edit out guilt-trips and make choices based on all the information except for that. If it is someone I am deeply emotionally involved with, then I will point it out and remind them that it is especially hurtful to me because I have my own issues with guilt, etc.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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