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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough.
    probably - the exact content of what i placed in each box was rushed... it was more a matter of syntax - of how i thought it should be done. feel free to take the boxes and add, edit or contribute anything you'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order).
    i completely agree - whether tert or dom, a function is still fundamentally the same cognitive/emotional dealing mechanism.

    the idea isn't to deny that - though now that i think of it i do appreciate the irony of the possibility (a.k.a. if Fe gone bad is exclusive rather then inclusive = me trying to separating the Fe category i belong too form FJs, which would make sense that i would do given past history etc)... but i think i was actually reacting to the mix up between the results of undeveloped functions with the negative aspects of functions. but yes - underneath that there's certainly a core common to the functions regardless of where it's stacked.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    A lot of the following is just my own opinion. But in any case:

    I think Fe is the starting point. All children pick up their first set of morals early along from their parents. As children develop their personality preferences, Fi-users will pull those moral systems inside to play with them in a private “mental laboratory” setting and hone them further. After an Fi-user has treated their parents’ moral standards in this fashion, the result can be either further identification with the parents’ morals or rebellion against them; that’s largely up to the Fi-user.
    it's interesting that we've reached similar conclusions:

    i believe that the difference between Ti-Fe & Fi-Te users is that Ti-Fe users form an earlier separation of inside & outside. we all experience the reality of getting positive & negative feedback from our authority figures as infants.

    but as the Fi child grows up, their internal development of a sense of self is actually slower then the rate at which they experience internal growth - so as the separations between the outside & inside slowly forms, it takes in much of the content they where brought up with and experienced to be part of their internal reality, and with it the seed for extending on those notions - starting with the simplest method of knowing that something doesn't feel right/wrong (the awareness of what feels good/bad for the self) and extending it outwards (a.k.a. the entire world is made of people in various circumstances who are fundamentally similar to you).

    for the Fe child there is a much earlier separation point - so when your authority figures express approval or disapproval, it isn't a matter of what is right/wrong, it is a matter of what they think/feel - it came from the outside and it remains associated with the outside. this develops much earlier on then our understanding of language, so the Fe child becomes accustomed to listening to paying a lot of attention to voice, facial expressions & body language. and as the Fe child grows up, the need to know what is expected/objectionable builds on the same skill of understanding what the outside is attempting to communicate - essentially as the Fe child grows up, the entire world becomes the source of guiding approval/disapproval information (a.k.a. the entire world is your mommy & daddy).

    these later develop into the the differences between Te & Ti:

    as the Fi child developers the slow separation between the self & the outside, it didn't only include approval/disapproval, it also included likes/dislikes, preferences wishes.. it included the basics to form goals. so as it develops it's capacity for thinking, it used it as a means to execute those goals - it becomes a tool to better understand how to get from A to B. this is why Te develops as a map making tool, examining the information from above to find the path for the self to go through, filtering what information is relevant to the map.

    as the Fe child develops their thinking capacity, information isn't standing in relations to the one's own goals & paths, it is standing in relations to itself, so to better understand it the inside is extended to various points within the web of information to view how it fits together form various perspectives. the Fe child becomes acute towards internal consistency & inconsistency, closed loop inter-connected systems, and extending and/or compensating on Fe's desire to understand the feedback of others through a continues refinement of semantic networks.

    edit: damn it @Southern Kross - i started writing before i fall asleep and only posted now and didn't think of reloading to check who posted since - your post completely destroyed my continues strike of having my posts in the last post of thee page.

  2. #172
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    @fia @fidelia @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
    this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

    i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)

  3. #173
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @fia @fidelia @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
    this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

    i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
    On behalf of myself and others THANK YOU!

    First of all I would like to say just how awesome you are to actually ask about Fe. That is rare on this forum. There are a number of points I would like to address, but i have to run to work. I really would like to get back to this post with more thought on your "spoiler" section.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #174
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
    Both incidents seem rather petty. Your sister was very inconsiderate in her earlier behavior while visiting. Did you point this out to her then? I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.

    As for the work incident, both managers are being unreasonable. If the first boss had reservations about your moving on after a year, he should have worked them out with you then (i.e. possibility of your working part time for each group). To release you from your agreement and then complain after the fact, and not even to you directly but to your new boss, is very petty and bordering on malicious. Just what does he hope to accomplish? It is equally unreasonable for your new boss to expect to be informed of all the other jobs you applied for but didn't get, unless some specific conflict of interest might be present. (e.g. "If you have talked with anyone at company ABC, we need to know before hiring you.") I hope you made clear to her that the old boss was agreeable to your moving on after a year. He should be the one looking bad in all this.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #175
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    the demanding of capitalization and correctiism. i rather not conform to irrational ideals.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  6. #176
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.

    I’m sure this does get annoying. It’s difficult though, when the ability to discern these kinds of things isn’t readily available. In the moment it’s ridiculously hard to tell the difference between feeling angry because things aren’t going my way (which is the embarrassing kind of angry) and feeling angry because someone else really has done something that felt disrespectful. It can take a long time for that difference to surface. For what it’s worth, I only really bother going to people to clean up past incidents (when I realize I actually was angry for the latter reason) when they’re important to me- because I know holding on to it secretly will only pollute the relationship. Sharing it with someone so far after the fact is kind of like cleaning out a junk drawer, it's necessary to keep the interpersonal dynamic running smoothly. And there’s a good chance the person is pretty annoyed with themselves too, it's embarrassing to take such a long time to realize these things.

    It’s weird though- you know how the water in a pond will become murky when something stirs it? That’s what it’s like to be Fe and to get upset. I’ll only have any idea of what stirred everything up in the first place once everything in the water has settled and I have a chance to examine what slowly becomes visible. It's mind blowing difficult for me to say something in the moment.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #177
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @fia @fidelia @other Fe-users: this thread has focused mainly on translating Fi communication to Fe-users, but I'd like to ask you the opposite: what do you expect from me, how can i keep the communication clear of any misunderstandings and basically....avoid diplomatic incidents?
    this is particularly important for me to understand, because i'm going to start a new job and i suspect my boss is ENFJ.

    i'm going to give you two examples of my problems of interaction with Fe-users (there's kinda small and stupid, so i'll put them as spoiler for who wants to read)
    For people with strong Fe who are positive, it can be helpful to communicate with a positive tone. The best ones tend to make an effort to please others, have a hard time saying "no", and so get over-extended. I've also seen a dynamic in which people realize the Fe person desires social harmony and so they deliberately become negative to manipulate the person because they know the person will work to recreate that harmony. When people see someone who is openly nice and giving, there is also a tendency for them to feel entitled to a piece of that. If the over-extended Fe person doesn't give them the attention and time they desire, they become openly critical of the Fe person in an attempt to manipulate some time and attention out of them. Many people feel emotionally deprived because their parents, sibling, friends, peers, were mean, withholding, critical and draining. As a result, many people feel a personal emotional debt, so when they see someone offering emotional support and attention, they latch on and expect them to fill that void. This is often done unconsciously, so many people would deny being guilty of this, but it's there in plain sight for anyone ready to observe.

    This is the biggest issue for Fe-dom/aux who are specifically kindhearted and who focus on social interaction. Some IFJs manage to find ways to put up walls to protect against this floodgate of human need and demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    In the examples you have given in your spoiler, I don't see the problem being with Fe vs. Fi. If anything, your position was more Fe like as the person planning and working to make the group comfortable. I wouldn't call the other people's inconsiderate behavior as Fi, but just as people being selfish and dismissive of your needs. It tends to be better to avoid people who behave this way, but if you cannot, then it makes sense to plan for their behavior. If they are coming over for dinner, just get a pizza to throw in the oven when they arrive the first night and make the more special meal the next day with their help in the kitchen chatting. If you get hungry waiting, remember that they are unpredictable and have a snack. You can still eat a little whenever they arrive, but just take care of your own needs.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #178
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Sorry for the edit: I accidentally left out a break in the quote - fixed.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #179
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Both incidents seem rather petty. Your sister was very inconsiderate in her earlier behavior while visiting. Did you point this out to her then? I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.

    As for the work incident, both managers are being unreasonable. If the first boss had reservations about your moving on after a year, he should have worked them out with you then (i.e. possibility of your working part time for each group). To release you from your agreement and then complain after the fact, and not even to you directly but to your new boss, is very petty and bordering on malicious. Just what does he hope to accomplish? It is equally unreasonable for your new boss to expect to be informed of all the other jobs you applied for but didn't get, unless some specific conflict of interest might be present. (e.g. "If you have talked with anyone at company ABC, we need to know before hiring you.") I hope you made clear to her that the old boss was agreeable to your moving on after a year. He should be the one looking bad in all this.
    exactly, thank you! when shit like this happens (especially the thing with my sister, it drove me bonkers) i always feel like i'm living in a different planet and have very high standards or speak another language
    ps. yes, i did tell me sister exactly why i wasn't happy at the time. she just shrugged. but she always shrugs when i have any complaints, same as my mother. as both are Fe users, i thought this was connected to Fe. but maybe they're just inconsiderate, like you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    For people with strong Fe who are positive, it can be helpful to communicate with a positive tone. The best ones tend to make an effort to please others, have a hard time saying "no", and so get over-extended. I've also seen a dynamic in which people realize the Fe person desires social harmony and so they deliberately become negative to manipulate the person because they know the person will work to recreate that harmony. When people see someone who is openly nice and giving, there is also a tendency for them to feel entitled to a piece of that. If the over-extended Fe person doesn't give them the attention and time they desire, they become openly critical of the Fe person in an attempt to manipulate some time and attention out of them. Many people feel emotionally deprived because their parents, sibling, friends, peers, were mean, withholding, critical and draining. As a result, many people feel a personal emotional debt, so when they see someone offering emotional support and attention, they latch on and expect them to fill that void. This is often done unconsciously, so many people would deny being guilty of this, but it's there in plain sight for anyone ready to observe.

    This is the biggest issue for Fe-dom/aux who are specifically kindhearted and who focus on social interaction. Some IFJs manage to find ways to put up walls to protect against this floodgate of human need and demands.
    ok, what you say is important, but is not my real problem with Fe. you are talking about "good" Fe, when Fe is kind and considerate of other people's needs. i appreciate this very much (grew up with an ENFJ mother) and like to protect and praise my ENFJ and INFJ friends when they are like this. but this is one-on-one communication with an Fe user, and i can handle it mostly fine i think.

    what i might have more difficulty comprehending is Fe working in social groups. i think this is my biggy. when they make me feel like i have to change myself to accommodate a group. i had an ESFJ supervisor who just drove me mad all the time. she manipulated people to form "in" and "out" groups and tried to dictate our working environment, from imposing the radio station to imposing certain times and places where we should all have lunch together, to forcing us to follow her conversation topics and allocate time to hear her speak about trivial issues. she was good at being PR and putting people together, but completely tyrannical in allowing each one of us to have our personal liberties.
    i guess she was an extreme. so let me get back to what i wanted to say. i have difficulty following through with social conventions, i don't understand what seem to be the "unwritten laws of social etiquette", and this sphere seems to be ruled by Fe-users. so it would be nice if you could give me some tips on what those rules are. and how i should behave so that it is clear to Fe-users that i'm not rude and mean no harm (i'm just not experienced in being socially-nice like them). you see, my only rule is to respect each person's free will and not step on anyone's toes (i guess this is Fi). but it seems that this isn't enough with Fe-users (am i confusing Fe-users with So-doms? so sorry if it's the case, then i'm an idiot)

  10. #180
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Edited previous post. My wording reinforced stereotypes I don't actually believe.

    Unrelated, I get uncomfortable when an intimate is compassionate when I make a mistake or have a problem because of my relation to them, but then treats people outside our circle hatefully when they do the exact same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am always bothered when someone complains about something I did two years after the fact, having said nothing at the time.
    This disturbs me. If I didn't understand I was wronging someone two years ago, I might have made the same mistake again since, toward more people. It's nobody's responsibility but mine to increase my self awareness, but I also just don't want to hurt people, and fewer is better.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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