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  1. #161
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Lots of food for thought here...

    One of the thoughts I had was that Fe seems to require more active action to maintain a neutral to positive relationship. Fi seems to maintain a neutral to positive relationship even without active action being taken. Therefore NOT doing something could be seen as a withdrawal from a Fe bank account, while the same thing could be seen as a neutral action from a Fi perspective.
    This is what I was trying to allude to in my post through my analogy of positive/negative rights. My INTP office mate whom I've been having difficulties with said to me explicitly that she didn't feel that I acted as though I was a part of the office that she, my boss and I all share, because I didn't do more to contribute to the space. I come to the office, I work, I go home. For her, there seemed to be a need for me to actively cultivate not only the space that we all shared, but the relationships I have with my colleagues. For me, it was more that I don't expect to be engaged in that way, so I won't in turn take the trouble to make those sorts of overtures.

    I think that points to the limitations of Fi-based empathy. Rather than starting with the kind of global notion of the good that Fe-users seem to hold, we give in apportion to what we hope to receive. It may mean that we will feel incredibly deeply for another, but it's equally possible that we will feel nothing at all and feel equally justified in either case. I wouldn't mind feeling more externally accountable. (In fact, a big part of my personal ethical development was having the ENFJ I was seeing take me to task on what was admittedly some flabbily relativistic thinking on my part.) But I think that for an Fe-user to get me to that point, it takes an appeal to reason as opposed to pathos, otherwise Fi will balk.

    I'm curious what you think of that as an Fe-user.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This makes sense, to a point, but if I follow it through, it becomes circular.

    Fi acts based on individual, internal values. That sense of internal obligation is accurate, and can be very strong, even in a tert-Fi user like myself. But sometimes that obligation involves observing external demands, as when I observe social conventions interacting with family elders, because respect for elders is something I value deeply.

    On the Fe side, obligations do seem to come from external sources and standards, and the desire to have harmonious interactions with others. But why is satisfying these important? The desire to do so starts to look again like another internal value: the Fe user values social harmony and external standards.

    I find it all confusing if I think about it for very long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I know what you mean. There is an element of that, but I meant address personal perception of where those standards come from more (the internal experience of the specific function). Basically, it's impossible to separate these functions if we break it down enough literally, because they depend so entirely on each other to work. It's like when you study the human brain. You can point to different parts and say that's the centre where certain things are controlled, but yet all of the centres are so intricately interwoven you could simply separate them off into clear cut sections.

    I would argue in your example of respecting your elders, it's still a Fi evaluation of what is right. The fact that you observe social convention is merely co-incidental. The real reason you do it is because it is a person value (ie. an obligation you impose on yourself). You can see the same thing in reverse in Fe. For example, a Fe user may seem to take a stand for the sake of, what appears to be, a Fi-style personal value (ie. doing the right thing because it is intrinsically right) but really it is an external standard. From what I've observed, Fe external standards doesn't necessarily equate with herd mentality or the relinquishment personal responsibility. I'm not sure how that works exactly, but perhaps a Fe user could explain it.

    It is an interesting thought to imagine Fe is simply rooted in Fi core values. I don't have an argument against that, but perhaps others might. I would think there is more to it than that, and that maybe Fe is not really compatible with Fi like that, but I don't know.
    A lot of the following is just my own opinion. But in any case:

    I think Fe is the starting point. All children pick up their first set of morals early along from their parents. As children develop their personality preferences, Fi-users will pull those moral systems inside to play with them in a private “mental laboratory” setting and hone them further. After an Fi-user has treated their parents’ moral standards in this fashion, the result can be either further identification with the parents’ morals or rebellion against them; that’s largely up to the Fi-user.

    In another post, I referred to this process as “self-actualization,” IOW, realizing one’s full personal potential with respect to values/morals/emotions. But the same could be said of any other functions. For example, Ni-users take the external iNtuitive process (Ne) and “self-actualize” it by pulling it down inside where problems can be isolated, set up like formulas, and worked out with mathematical rigor.

    So in that sense, the extroverted version of any function is the “un-self-actualized” version, while the introverted version of the same function would be the “self-actualized” version: customized and maximized to that specific person’s full potential. INFPs self-actualize their Feeling; INFJs self-actualize their iNtuition.

    I’m not sure that “self-actualized” is the best term for all this. Also there’s the issue of how and why the functions after the dominant and auxiliary functions become introverted or stay extroverted. But whatever.

    Anyway, hopefully you get the point. An Fe grasp of moral systems is the starting point for all kids. Fi-users attach special meaning to emotions and values, so they seize those Fe moral systems and take them inside for additional examination, and then customize as needed to make them truly Fi. It may or may not result in substantial departures from the original Fe look of the systems. But in any case the result will be idiosyncratic and attuned to the Fi-user’s own needs, whatever that entails (i.e., based on the Fi-user's own attachment disorders, coping mechanisms, developmental idiosyncrasies etc.)

    Again, this is my opinion, and the terms that I used are my own. Feel free to review or edit this idea as you please; I’m not wedded to it. It’s just a convenient device for dealing with those particular questions in my own head.

  3. #163
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    This is awesome! It's the kind of discussion about Fe and Fi that I've been longing for, as I think it is getting to the heart of WHY we see things differently and therefore how to go approach life in a more informed way.

    I've got lots of comments I want to make to this last batch of posts over the past few pages. I need more time to think it all over but there is a lot of useful stuff for me to take away. Thank you for taking the time to think it over and share what's in your head because I feel like I'm almost able to reach out and touch something that I haven't had access to before that is really helpful!!!!!!!!!

  4. #164
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    haha! i love it when you get excited fidelia!

    these comments are pretty fantastic yep.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  5. #165
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Fi at it's best Fe at it's best
    dom/sec:emotional introspection as means for empathy, the emotional exploration of scenario's used to better understand the points of view of others under a gradual self-study and the shedding of generalized assumptions in favor of finding the circumstances leading to one's own beliefs & emotional triggers, thus expanding the realm of projection to include a larger diversity of others. thrives under a diversity of close relationships. dom/sec:valued interaction as a mean for genuine emotional connectivity, observant of others & inclusive of their needs, accommodates the perspectives of many within a larger social platform, actively seeks opportunities to give & be helpful to others, willing to sacrifice and place one's own ego aside, dutiful towards the well being of others & actively helpful, often using Ti to solve problems for others. thrives under... (fuck if i know... still trying to figure it out, so far all i have is a growing list of what it isn't.)
    tert/inf:willingly seek roles & form ideas by which they can deliver value and improve the conditions for others in both the present & future, use introspection to determine their strengths & weaknesses and define how they can best do so, at times prioritizing the utilitarian good over themselves, open and ready to except insight and information from anywhere it comes from. thrives under factually-supported self esteem. tert/inf: caring for others, conscientious of the consequences & implications towards others, uses Ti deductions as means for thoughtfulness towards others. opportunistically considerate & giving, the well being of others will often become an end in itself rather then a mean. thrives under collective problem solving & self fulfillment.
    Fi at it's worst Fe at it's worst
    dom/sec: define everything in relations to the self as it is - make moral judgement calls based on the most literal interpretation of the golden rule, if something is out of the range of "what they would do" immediately assume malevolent intentions. feeds on alienation and isolation. dom/sec:actively lie to themselves with sociological virtues as ego decorations, stemming from idealistic notions of one's relation & value to others but not the practice, the self esteem is entranced in the appearance of things - and one does not need to change reality when one can change the appearance. self righteous & incapable of taking critical thinking or taking responsibility for the external self, control the information about one's self & exclude all who experienced it differently becomes the norm. feeds on notions of boundaries & illusion of control over one's social circumstances.
    tert/inf: indulgent and self-serving, defines the world under a relationship of "me (me me me me!) vs. everyone else" leading to resentment, pigeon holing people in terms of utility for one's own ends without acknowledgment of intrinsic value, view any harm or offense to others under a self-serving guise of heroism or karma, indulge in grandiose notions of the self. feeds on others buying in to their illusions. tert/inf: insight into others as a mean to an end. manipulative & juvenile, will openly lie to others and play on the piano of social interactions simply to see what happens & learn the game for the benefit of Ti, or in order to game social interactions for one's own goals. feeds on indirect power & influence over others through deceit.
    This is pretty great, mane! Very thoughtful and insightful. If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough. I'm sure we do worse shit than that. We might not be hatching evil plots to take over the world, but we can be pretty self-righteous, obnoxious and pig-headed. Some of the ter/inf negative stuff you listed can be true of us FPs as well.

    Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order). There certainly are specific differences between dom/aux and ter/inf usage, which you've pointed out well, but they still draw from the same function. Maybe all the specifics of what I wrote didn't quite work in universal terms 100% (I would have to spend more time on it to refine it perfectly), but I believe there is more cross over than perhaps you imagine. Just as an example: a FJ might use a guilt trip as a form of Fe manipulation, whereas a TP con man might use it to scam people. Both require keen knowledge and awareness of the interpersonal landscape and an ability to finesse it to their needs.


    BTW: wow, you wrote a whole table out in HTML - well done! I didn't even know you could do that on this site.
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  6. #166
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Guys, this is an amazing example of what can happen when expectations and open mindedness is used to bring all types together and creatively brainstorm. There is a level of constructive feedback here that is breathtakingly beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).
    I used to be like that. I felt like I couldn't change the emotion I was experiencing - and I still have some triggers that I cannot change. And when Fe-users demand you do so, it feels like they want you to lie both to yourself and them for their own comfort level, as you have no clue how to execute what they are asking for. It is like being told by someone to ignore the splitting migraine you re going through coz you shouldn't have it in the first place. And it breeds resentment to have that expectation put on you.

    Otoh, over the years, I've noticed that if you get the time, space and inclination to examine that emotion, follow it back to where it came from and notice the pattern of when it appears, you are at least one step closer to - what I call- disabling it, instead of wasting energy on repressing it. But that requires you to a) become aware of the fact that you re in the throws of it, instead of just acting on it as a kneejerk reaction and b) that others give you a chance - and as an ENFP preferably a soundboard - to actually complete that process, instead of insisting you stop it right now!

    Once you have the cause pinpointed, you can backtrack which belief or anxiety is causing it and why. Then you examine *why* that fear or belief exists and whether or not it is in fact useful to you, and what you would like to replace it with if the answer is no. This process takes oodles of time though. After that, there is still the process of implementation and actively paying attention to stopping the kneejerk reaction. So yeah..it takes a while.

    The reason it takes so long is because we need to see the whole picture since the response mustve originated somewhere. It is there, to pretend it aint just seems...blatantly wrong. It feels like lying to yourself when you force the emotional response to fit the outcome you want. However, if you can backtrack where it comes from and alter the causes of the response itself more to your own preferences, the integrity of the emotional information is preserved and the process becomes reliable, crystal clear and tailored to your very own beliefs. You become for that matter consciously aware of what *is* in fact important to you as a person, instead of just randomly responding to remnants of traumatic experiences from the past, or beliefs that are forcefed to you throughout your life by others - and whose integrity isnt guaranteed in the same way.

    And it is, at least for me, in that way that I declutter my own emotional responses, and reprogram them in a way that is acceptable to me, authenticity and integrity guaranteed, in order to come to the outcome that I want. But yeah...it is a retarded amount of work. I wish in that respect that I could do it like an Fe-user does

    AS for when those -including me- are still figuring things out - for them, their response is very much genuine and authentic, and to have others demand they sacrifice its integrity and authenticity is like asking them to throw away and condemn their very own make-up, and the dna sequence to our soul - something that could teach us - and others, which is how we love - what we re all about. Iow, it is sacrilege

    Otoh, Ive also had to learn the hard way that connecting with people does not mean to them what it means to me. To me, connecting with others is about stripping emotionally naked and seeing them the same way - warts and all. That means you get to see my hang ups, the things Im still working on and the genuine emotional responses. It took me forever to see *why* others didn't do this - coz it makes for a more constructive, goal-oriented group/society that can accomplish a lot together if they keep their personal emotional distance, while still being emotionally connected. It took me ages to figure out the reason for it, and even more time to figure out the 'appropriate' emotional distance that was required for this. And even now, it still is taxing to me, especially in a one-on-one capacity, at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, that sounds like a great response! I don't think the issue is so much relating your own personal experience (Fe users do that too). It's just remembering to bring it back around to the person in question and their problem. Most people like to know that they are not alone, particularly when it's an issue that is really making them question their own competence or ability at something that matters to them. Probably too, the more overtly you can state your intentions (as you have here), the better!
    This too took me forever, as other Fi-users just automatically seem to associate their own experiences - especially fellow Ne users, and spontaneously contribute. It becomes a crazy loop of associations, and you feel like peas in a pod coz you re venting about similar things, related things and see how they handled those situations. Its a combo of getting solutions through stories and venting.


    With Fe-users, it made me at times stop...wait for them to contribute, have an awkward silence and panic, send my Ne in overdrive to tell another story, till I was stuck in an NeSi loop and couldnt stop coz you are terrified of the silence. Once I figured out that I should do the full circle and keep the story shorter, to get the back and forth thing going, it was a ton easier to communicate with Fe-users and feel comfortable with them

    I try to do a combo of the two styles nowadays, if I get a chance. I ll automatically - like this post - speak from the 'I' perspective, but I ll try to bring it back to you by stating what to me is the obvious connection and relate it to the other person, then ask them again about how they experienced it specifically, and essentially giving them the mic. I still have to watch it that I dont get caught up in story-telling time when I get super jazzed about a topic though

    warning, demo-attempt:

    So yeah, I definitely agree with you that it is vital to learn that Fe-users wait politely for their turn and you have to explicitly return the spotlight to them in order to keep the conversation flowing, even if it perhaps seems stating the obvious to you as an Fi-user. And I absolutely love that you are attempting to integrate both Fi and Fe approaches by learning from this thread into your interaction style. Ive found myself that it helps cover all your bases and strengthens bonds. Besides, there is something to combining both the sharing info, povs and getting to know you part that Fi-users do, and the group strengthening goal oriented tactic of Fe-users. In fact, Id say this thread is demonstrating it to be a perfect storm when combined properly.

    I'm also curious to see what it looks like from your side; what is it like to try and integrate Fi into a primarily Fe frame of mind?
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  7. #167
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This is pretty great, mane! Very thoughtful and insightful. If I had one criticism, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think the Fi dom/aux "at its worst" one isn't really nasty enough. I'm sure we do worse shit than that. We might not be hatching evil plots to take over the world, but we can be pretty self-righteous, obnoxious and pig-headed. Some of the ter/inf negative stuff you listed can be true of us FPs as well.

    Not to undermine what you've done, but I do still believe that there are plenty of fundamentals to how each type uses the functions (whatever their function order). There certainly are specific differences between dom/aux and ter/inf usage, which you've pointed out well, but they still draw from the same function. Maybe all the specifics of what I wrote didn't quite work in universal terms 100% (I would have to spend more time on it to refine it perfectly), but I believe there is more cross over than perhaps you imagine. Just as an example: a FJ might use a guilt trip as a form of Fe manipulation, whereas a TP con man might use it to scam people. Both require keen knowledge and awareness of the interpersonal landscape and an ability to finesse it to their needs.


    BTW: wow, you wrote a whole table out in HTML - well done! I didn't even know you could do that on this site.
    Agreed

    I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated. Lastly, being antisocial due to an inability to compromise on their own preferences on how things should be (aka perfectionism), to the point of destroying group harmony, aka the toddler tantrum syndrome.
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  8. #168
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated..
    Yeah, I've definitely witnessed this. It irks me a lot, if I may be frank. If I have understanding towards others when they seem to need it, I expect that understanding to be reciprocated, and when it isn't, I can't help but assume that the person never really cared about me that much to begin with. I'm not sure how true that is.

    Regarding Fe:

    tert/inf: caring for others, conscientious of the consequences & implications towards others, uses Ti deductions as means for thoughtfulness towards others. opportunistically considerate & giving, the well being of others will often become an end in itself rather then a mean. thrives under collective problem solving & self fulfillment.
    tert/inf: insight into others as a mean to an end. manipulative & juvenile, will openly lie to others and play on the piano of social interactions simply to see what happens & learn the game for the benefit of Ti, or in order to game social interactions for one's own goals. feeds on indirect power & influence over others through deceit.
    I flip between these two depending on how confident I feel, admittedly. Which is why I'm trying to be more confident. I've certainly made progress. I recognize that the second is bad and unhealthy.
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  9. #169
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Otoh, Ive also had to learn the hard way that connecting with people does not mean to them what it means to me. To me, connecting with others is about stripping emotionally naked and seeing them the same way - warts and all. That means you get to see my hang ups, the things Im still working on and the genuine emotional responses. It took me forever to see *why* others didn't do this - coz it makes for a more constructive, goal-oriented group/society that can accomplish a lot together if they keep their personal emotional distance, while still being emotionally connected. It took me ages to figure out the reason for it, and even more time to figure out the 'appropriate' emotional distance that was required for this. And even now, it still is taxing to me, especially in a one-on-one capacity, at times.
    Me, too. When I first began exploring their way, there were a lot of situations where the Fe user felt they had really connected with me while I felt I'd held back any special connection with them. Then I wondered why they kept wanting to hang out with me and considered me their friend when I'd held them at what had seemed like such a distance. I still experience the surprise a little.
    Last edited by Video; 09-18-2013 at 03:48 AM.
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  10. #170
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Agreed

    I'd add perhaps to the unhealthy part of Fi dom/aux: elitism, judging those that don't 'see' their ideal or adhere to it, looking down on them for that. (though my 4 might be showing), demanding understanding from others for their own quirks while being reactionary towards those same people and their quirks and see it as malicious intent instead, as Mane stated. Lastly, being antisocial due to an inability to compromise on their own preferences on how things should be (aka perfectionism), to the point of destroying group harmony, aka the toddler tantrum syndrome.
    There you go. I knew there would be more to say.
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