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  1. #131
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    See, I've had this problem before with thinkers. This is the instance where I think we have to reach compromise, because non-verbal conversation is actually pretty important in my universe (and has been proven to be more important than verbal-communication for humans in general)
    I have heard the claim before, that nonverbal communication is more important than verbal, and it it hogwash. It is impossible to convey most content without using words: how a sick relative is doing in the hospital; the pluses and minuses of various apartments someone is considering; why we should vote for candidate A vs. B; all of these require verbal language. What especially bothers me is when someone's body language and spoken words are contradictory. I can see not wanting to say something, and letting one's body language convey one's attitude, but then support it if you open your mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    This is another thing I've been accused of doing but I don't even notice it. If I don't mean you harm, then what's the problem? It's not like I want to eat you, it's just an involuntary reaction and its part of my body language.
    If you know my name is Jane and you call me Sally, is it OK if you mean no harm? How about if you take a pen out of my briefcase to use just for a minute, and then put it back? Just because you mean no harm, doesn't make it OK or well-received. That's what "personal space" means here. I have involuntary reactions, too, and am expected to curb them to be polite, and sensitive to others ("that's stupid!" rarely goes over well). You can as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    this i may also understand. because if i'm talking to a thinker and i'm feeling he's distant, and in particular if i notice that there must be hidden feelings and/or desires to why he's reacting or talking to me in a certain way, then i'll probably like to prod him for a while to see if we can increase the authenticity/productivity level of the conversation.
    I can understand your end of the conversation as well. It is frustrating to feel there is important information that you are not getting. Best here just to ask, but be prepared to accept that the other person won't be willing to share. In that case, maybe there is nothing to be gained by continuing the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I understand and agree with what you are saying but I think we have to recognize that there is such a thing as diplomacy and there is a reason for it. So I'm a bit more accepting of this.

    I disagree with you on this. Paraphrasing is an effective communication technique.

    Again, there are the comments on diplomacy, which does have value. I heard a wise person once say, "People won't remember what you said but they will always remember how you made them feel." This being said, you have to get to the point and say what you need to say eventually.

    I think some people really have a problem with this and they are born like that. You have to respect it. This doesn't bother me at all though.
    Presumably we are asking questions like "what offends users of Fi vs. Fe" because we recognize everyone is not the same, and want to understand and even accommodate these differences. What you and Pinkgraffiti are saying about touching, nonverbal communication, and mirroring assumes we are all the same, and what is good or effective for you will be the same for me. This assumption denies reality and makes for bad diplomacy.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #132
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Presumably we are asking questions like "what offends users of Fi vs. Fe" because we recognize everyone is not the same, and want to understand and even accommodate these differences. What you and Pinkgraffiti are saying about touching, nonverbal communication, and mirroring assumes we are all the same, and what is good or effective for you will be the same for me. This assumption denies reality and makes for bad diplomacy.
    Not exactly. I really think there are people who don't like to be touched or have their personal space invaded by people they don't know really well. I don't disagree with it all and I'm saying it's fine to be that way, you need to respect others being like that, though I have to admit, it bothers me a little. I'm stating my personal preferences. Of course, if you live in Brazil, you likely get over that sort of thing because the culture is just like that. They don't have such a concept for personal space and people are always touching you.

    Criticism is a difficult thing. Many many people are easily offended by it, including Fi and Fe types. ENFPs are among the most sensitive to criticism and they obviously prefer Fi. I think it takes a while to get to know people's preferred style and how they react to things. Direct, factual, respectful criticism in my experience needs to be handled with kid gloves. I can be extremely direct and right away but I reserve that kind of interaction for people that I know well where there has been a level of trust built up and I know how they are going to react.

    On paraphrasing - people hear one thing when the person meant another. It happens all the time. Paraphrasing is a highly effective communication technique to restate in your own words what you heard so that you're sure you understand. It also shows the other person that you are listening to what they are saying. If you parrot back exactly what the other person said, that's likely not as useful. Perhaps that's what you mean If not, I suggest you reconsider usage of the technique. INTJs by the way are not known as the world's most effective active listeners because even if they are listening acutely they don't acknowledge what the other person is saying. They don't express reactions. They don't nod their head. They don't look at the other person while they're talking. Etc. Combine that with a tendency to be silent on the 90% they agree on and disagree on the 10% they don't, and others can have the impression they are stubborn and don't listen. I will say that Fe types do a better job of active listening on average - they appear to listen at least and that's comforting to people because feel supported.

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  3. #133
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I don't know really. Usually I tick along just fine and them something...perhaps a certain phrase or moment of intensity..will make me blow and put me into a state of frenzy and rage.

    It's somewhat random though and most people don't really seem to understand why I would be angry at all. Usually it is the content of what is said, but occasionally it is also tone and inflection and the intention behind it.

    Which is hard to get angry or offended by really, because you cannot PROVE an intention without express admittance.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  4. #134
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    No one is owed anything just 'cause. Fi-users don't oblige easy, and that "positive" Fe attitude can end up looking like so much self-entitled bullshit to us. Your uniqueness, your value as an individual is inherent to you, and can't be diminished by me acknowledging it or not. It's yours; it's sacrosanct and inviolate. Give me the chance to give you something real and genuine, freely. Being compelled to externalize the feeling that I have for you, that connectedness between us, is like being violated. It creates grounds for heartfelt loathing.

    I understand why Fe could find such an attitude to be selfish. There is more in play and at stake than how I feel about something individually. There is some greater good to be considered out there somewhere, I guess. And, moreover, I'm apart of that greater collective whether I "choose" to be or not. While there are no islands, there are the things that we share in common. Those things can be anything--material, intellectual, emotional, whatever--and it's the voluntary giving and taking of them that creates relationships. Fe entitlement, in my view, utterly corrodes that interaction.
    This is a pretty good articulation of a Fi perspective, and also the issues Fe takes with it.

    I do feel though, that it's not entirely true that Fi doesn't think it is "owed" anything. A lot of Fi users do seem to demand a positive attitude, and place a lot of importance on the optimism of those surrounding them. Is that inaccurate? I find that FJs seem to spend much less time complaining about "negative vibes" or insufficent levels of "enthusiasm"" shown.

    I mean, ENFJs definitely seem to be a little bubbly, but I get the impression that they don't seem to be so bothered by the "negative vibes" of others. They don't really seem to "absorb" negativity.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  5. #135
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Criticism is a difficult thing. Many many people are easily offended by it, including Fi and Fe types. ENFPs are among the most sensitive to criticism and they obviously prefer Fi. I think it takes a while to get to know people's preferred style and how they react to things. Direct, factual, respectful criticism in my experience needs to be handled with kid gloves. I can be extremely direct and right away but I reserve that kind of interaction for people that I know well where there has been a level of trust built up and I know how they are going to react.
    I don't understand the highlighed. I see direct, factual, respectful criticism as the ideal; in what sense and why would "kid gloves" be required?

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    On paraphrasing - people hear one thing when the person meant another. It happens all the time. Paraphrasing is a highly effective communication technique to restate in your own words what you heard so that you're sure you understand. It also shows the other person that you are listening to what they are saying. If you parrot back exactly what the other person said, that's likely not as useful. Perhaps that's what you mean If not, I suggest you reconsider usage of the technique. INTJs by the way are not known as the world's most effective active listeners because even if they are listening acutely they don't acknowledge what the other person is saying. They don't express reactions. They don't nod their head. They don't look at the other person while they're talking. Etc. Combine that with a tendency to be silent on the 90% they agree on and disagree on the 10% they don't, and others can have the impression they are stubborn and don't listen. I will say that Fe types do a better job of active listening on average - they appear to listen at least and that's comforting to people because feel supported.
    In professional or businesslike situations, I find most communication clear enough the first time, that I and whoever I am speaking with need only ask questions when we really don't understand. Socially I find I am often asking questions, either because I really don't understand, or I want them to elaborate and provide more detail. Perhaps this is why the idea of simply restating what they have said seems pointless. When people restate what I have said back to me, it does come across as mindless parroting. IME, the more someone does this to me, the more I have the impression that they don't really understand what I am saying, even though they can approximate the words.

    As for those missing head nods, silence, and even looking away, I admit this is my usual state when intently listening. I am actually very focused on what the person is saying. I don't want to interrupt with any noise or gesture on my part. Looking away from the person sometimes helps me focus better, especially if the setting is noisy. I will turn back to them eventually, especially if I need to ask a question, or they ask one of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I do feel though, that it's not entirely true that Fi doesn't think it is "owed" anything. A lot of Fi users do seem to demand a positive attitude, and place a lot of importance on the optimism of those surrounding them. Is that inaccurate? I find that FJs seem to spend much less time complaining about "negative vibes" or insufficent levels of "enthusiasm"" shown.

    I mean, ENFJs definitely seem to be a little bubbly, but I get the impression that they don't seem to be so bothered by the "negative vibes" of others. They don't really seem to "absorb" negativity.
    I agree with @Wind-Up Rex also. If I feel I am owed anything, it is privacy and non-interference. Leave me alone, stay out of my space, and don't tell me what to do. If you need help, ask. If I'm bothering you, tell me and I will do my best to stop. Anything else, I have to earn from you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #136
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't understand the highlighed. I see direct, factual, respectful criticism as the ideal; in what sense and why would "kid gloves" be required?
    Because of what I said. People get offended, defensive, etc. Nobody likes to be criticized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As for those missing head nods, silence, and even looking away, I admit this is my usual state when intently listening. I am actually very focused on what the person is saying. I don't want to interrupt with any noise or gesture on my part. Looking away from the person sometimes helps me focus better, especially if the setting is noisy. I will turn back to them eventually, especially if I need to ask a question, or they ask one of me.
    You know that and I know that but I can assure you that 90% of the human race does not.

    And for those of you who are not INTJs - listen to what @Coriolis is saying. It is exactly right!

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  7. #137
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    The three things I listed that have offended me: being told my motivations/feelings, irrational snap judgments, and arrogant derision, can all be summed up in one idea - people being too judgmental. There is some range of tolerance I have for the intolerant, and I have some capacity to feel their anxiety and pain, but if someone gets too picky, extreme, mean, and/or irrational in their judgmentalism, then I don't care for their company or conversation. I tend to respect people who can ease up the judgmental attitudes at least a bit.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've been having interpersonal difficulties with my INTP office mate over the last several months that basically can be boiled down to a fundamentally different view of relating. The best I can articulate the distinction is that it's something akin to positive versus negative rights. Relating and connectedness for Fe is understood in a "positive" sense in that it is active and generally obliges action. The existence of a relationship between two people is dependent upon their participation in it--the things those involved do to outwardly acknowledge the bond they share, and the extent to which they act out the role that that bond has created for them. I'm not exactly doing the mindset justice, but it's what I seem to get from it.

    The Fi perspective takes a "negative" view of attachment. The inaction that preserves the integrity of individual space. Fi relationships are about that freedom to simply be without anything interfering with the other party's expression of themness. There's that desire to get to that point where you feel connectedness on that deepest level to glimpse deeper still into that common thing that gives rise to us all. That emphasis, though, on individual space also leads to the mentality that what happens in your space is on your terms. No one is owed anything just 'cause. Fi-users don't oblige easy, and that "positive" Fe attitude can end up looking like so much self-entitled bullshit to us. Your uniqueness, your value as an individual is inherent to you, and can't be diminished by me acknowledging it or not. It's yours; it's sacrosanct and inviolate. Give me the chance to give you something real and genuine, freely. Being compelled to externalize the feeling that I have for you, that connectedness between us, is like being violated. It creates grounds for heartfelt loathing.

    I understand why Fe could find such an attitude to be selfish. There is more in play and at stake than how I feel about something individually. There is some greater good to be considered out there somewhere, I guess. And, moreover, I'm apart of that greater collective whether I "choose" to be or not. While there are no islands, there are the things that we share in common. Those things can be anything--material, intellectual, emotional, whatever--and it's the voluntary giving and taking of them that creates relationships. Fe entitlement, in my view, utterly corrodes that interaction. When someone's basic attitude is that they have some sort of "right" to partake in what's yours, or have some say in how you manage yours without any greater justification than some vague appeals to "common courtesy", it's hard to construe it as anything other than a power play.

    That gets at the heart of my issues with Fe. Despite all it's anxious feelings about it's myriad obligations, it's fundamental lack of respect for individual choice means that it has no real concept of responsibility. Or freedom. You can't have either without respect for choice.

    These things only crystallized for me as of late. Not totally unrelatedly, I've been catching up on Breaking Bad over the past month or so, and have joined many others in my contempt for Walter's ENFJ wife, Skyler. Anna Gunn, the actress who plays her, wrote an op-ed for The Times a couple of weeks ago defending her character by saying that people hated her because she was a "strong woman", and, you know, sexism. To be fair, I don't see her as particularly strong. I think if your basic attitude is that everyone owes you something, it'd probably be pretty easy to go around being demanding, controlling, and generally placing what you feel to be best above any other consideration. Why would you ever be otherwise?
    Your post isn’t so much about the communications between Fi and Fe; it’s more about the *attitudes* underlying the communications.

    Still, that’s as strong an exposition of Fi attitudes as I’ve ever seen. I like it. So I would figure I would springboard off of that and try to find some middle ground. For example, taking Fi-users first:

    Fi users are all about autonomy and independence: the integrity of personal space. They consider the concepts of individual choice, responsibility and freedom as central: These are the things that create “genuineness.” In the opinion of Fi-users, Fe seems to be the opposite of this; Fe puts emphasis on obligations, exchanges of mutual courtesies, and taking guidance from the feelings of others. But to the Fi-user, all that Fe stuff is superficial and gets in the way of true connection; Fe entitlement frustrates Fi autonomy. The Fi-user says that true connection comes from voluntary exchanges, i.e., from a spontaneous upwelling of emotion and not from exchanges of emotion in accordance with some etiquette manual.

    The other side of the coin is the viewpoint of Fe-users:

    Fe-users see Fi individuality as egocentrism and narcissism. In contrast, the Fe-user stands for something outside himself, something objective and solid: an ideology, a community, a good product. The lives of people are benefitted and enriched by Fe-users in very tangible ways. The Fe networker helps the participants in his network connect with each other and benefit from the network; the network brings the community to the aid of each individual in the network. The Fe team-leader uses the power of the team to achieve a benefit far beyond what the individuals could have achieved themselves. The Fe salesman provides a service to the community by informing them of a good service or product, listening to the customer, and ensuring a good fit between product and buyer, etc.

    Naturally there are some downsides to both functions (with the Fi-user first):

    Many Fi-users basically aim to get from point A to point B while interacting with other people as minimally as possible. So they ignore common courtesies in their hurry to get to the meat of the transaction, they tread on people’s toes (figuratively, that is), they cut people off and neglect to give them a full and fair hearing. It gets interpreted by others as obliviousness and laziness, and that’s not far from the truth: Fi-users simply don’t pay attention to the common courtesies that others take for granted or the not-so-subtle signals provided by others. So a big downside to being internally-oriented is that sooner or later Fi-users find themselves embroiled in conflicts that they simply didn’t see coming. Another downside of being internally-oriented is that when Fi-users finally do decide to pursue an objective in the outside world, they are typically clueless about how to maneuver in the IRL environment; they know only themselves, their own needs, and their goals; so they easily get sucked into bad relationship deals such as enabling and codependency.

    As for Fe-users:

    There’s an old saying that when you’re a hammer you see everything else as a nail. If you identify yourself too closely with an external product or service or idea, it becomes hard to see much beyond that framework. The Fe networker may have no use for people outside his network; the Fe team-leader may get a “get-aboard-or-get-out-of-the-way” mentality. Another downside of being externally-oriented is being unable to function without a high degree of consensus in the immediate environment. This can lead to a variety of problems: If Fe-users are unable to advocate for their own needs (or identify personal needs apart from their product or service), they can burn out and become martyrs. Or they may have difficulty maintaining relationships due to an inability to tolerate minor differences of opinion or tolerate petty rebuffs from the other party.

    Solutions for both Fi-users and Fe-users:

    Obviously, a meeting place in the middle is preferable. I won’t go into detail on the specific solutions, because such suggestions tend to raise hackles; neither side likes to hear that they should be doing things differently. Most people are getting by just fine in life, doing whatever comes natural to them. They just wish *everyone else* would do things differently.

    But, having said that:

    Fi-users can mitigate the worst faults of their position by practicing some mirroring on a daily basis: Give people a fair and full hearing, and then reflect the concerns and courtesies of the other party at the start of your response before talking about your own concerns. It may feel fake, but it will help attune the Fi-user to the environment around them and the cues of others, thereby smoothing their way in the real world.

    Fe-users can mitigate the worst faults of their position by practicing some self-actualization. For example, don’t be thrown off when you can’t reach a high degree of consensus in your environment. As I said in an earlier post, “We don’t have to like each other; that’s immaterial in a boundaried relationship.” If you can’t achieve consensus, then focus on what’s most important to you personally: your personal mission or agenda. Focus on that thing, restate your case with that as your main point, and you can often get pretty close to what you need from the interaction even in the absence of consensus. If you wish, think of it as “mirroring” the Fi-users around you.

  9. #139
    Stansmith
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    Are most Fi users expecting the same Fe-related courtesy from others, or is it a construct that only Fe users notice? Is it only Fe-users we're looking to please by becoming 'balanced'? Is the larger "group" people talk about offending really just the Fe-users?

    Because I don't think I even notice such things. Or maybe I do (noone likes to be treated rudely or selfishly), but I don't put as much weight into externalizing it.

  10. #140
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Are most Fi users expecting the same Fe-related courtesy from others, or is it a construct that only Fe users notice? Is it only Fe-users we're looking to please by becoming 'balanced'? Is the larger "group" people talk about offending really just the Fe-users?

    Because I don't think I even notice such things. Or maybe I do (noone likes to be treated rudely or selfishly), but I don't put as much weight into externalizing it.
    Good question. Here's my take. I do appreciate being treated kindly and with respect, but I don't think that's unique to Fe users. What I do like is Fe users' ability to talk openly about feelings and to help me feel less weird about having unpleasant ones. My ENFJ and ISFJ friends can really make me feel so much more normal and at ease when I feel like I'm in some kind of terrible hopeless place. (Maybe all Fi users struggle with feeling alone in their feelings? Never thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense).

    The thing I expect of others, though, that Fe doesn't seem to jive with naturally is for others not to take responsibility for my feelings. I can feel some of the Fe users in my life tiptoe around subjects that they're afraid will make me feel stressed out or something, and while I appreciate the effort and the place it comes from, I wish they wouldn't do it. I like to practice dealing with emotions as they come from within myself, and being vague or falsely relaxed about a topic to try to not create a negative emotion for me is by no means 'saving' me. It goes the same way when I'm feeling a negative feeling, and Fe instantly takes on the responsibility of fixing it. I am responsible for my emotions, and expect them to be responsible for theirs. It just isn't practical to think you can control everyone's feelings around you.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

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