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  1. #121
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    @Mane, well said with the degrees of cookedness. That explains the disconnect I often have with NJs perfectly. How can you say you know? It seems much less scientific than my own "further research needed" stance.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  2. #122
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    If I have time to calibrate, then I'm comfortable with a wide range of communication styles from overly apologetic and polite to cursing like a sailor and grouchy.

    1. There is one thing I don't want to calibrate to and that is when someone tells me what I'm feeling, what my "true" motivations are. I suppose I can tolerate it until the exchange where I tell them they are wrong and they insist to know better than me. At that point it seems time to just leave the argument or debate so they can just say what I'm thinking/feeling, declare all the problems with it, then say what they're thinking/feeling and so forth. When people argue at me like that it does annoy me. Almost every Fi/Ti dom I know has done this and it's the only thing I can think of that I dislike about my communication with them, but it is a doozy. They do it less or stop when not very upset.

    2. Edit: Regarding the Ni/Ne question of uncooked ideas, I don't mind it. I can get offended by too much certitude, especially if it is an irrational and snap judgment. I have had to eliminate some political discussions with people who are too personally focused without actual analysis. I love it when people are open to further discussion which @fidelia demonstrates all the time, so I think the "uncooked ideas" are referring to something else.

    3. I also dislike a deriding, belittling, flippant attitude. I adore humorous people, but if the belittling smacks of arrogance then I find a way to offend right back with the opposite of flippancy. This is the only instance where I go on the attack. The other two I tend to just leave, but I must have a childhood trigger for the arrogant "nanners" type behavior because even with self control I can leave a path of verbal carnage in response.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #123
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    @Mane, well said with the degrees of cookedness. That explains the disconnect I often have with NJs perfectly. How can you say you know? It seems much less scientific than my own "further research needed" stance.
    It is scientific more in an empirical sense than a theoretical one. Stilll, I understand that people will have the highlighted question. I have it myself, though might give another Ni user the benefit of the doubt if his/her conclusions have been correct in the past, and I know this is how he/she operates. If I cannot provide at least a top-level answer to this question, I usually keep the thought to myself unless there is some urgency. Then I will use all resources at my disposal to impose it (it's not that bad - often a simple "please trust me on this one" will do).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #124
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    @fidelia i have a question for you, if you don't mind. i was out earlier with an INFJ friend. and she was telling me how a certain work experience lowered her self-esteem. so, since we work in the same area, i offered my personal experience of it, and of other people, and explained how we all have self-esteem issues with our work. my goal was to make her see that she wasn't alone, and that it was normal and she shouldn't blame it on herself.
    is this good advice for an INFJ or would you have preferred a different approach? because i'm never sure if my INFJ friends like hearing words like these. thanks.

  5. #125
    i love skylights's Avatar
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  6. #126
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, that sounds like a great response! I don't think the issue is so much relating your own personal experience (Fe users do that too). It's just remembering to bring it back around to the person in question and their problem. Most people like to know that they are not alone, particularly when it's an issue that is really making them question their own competence or ability at something that matters to them. Probably too, the more overtly you can state your intentions (as you have here), the better!

  7. #127
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X
    What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?
    Interest has been expressed in more T input to this thread. I have already made some comments on @fidelia's initial post, particularly with respect to how Fi/Fe differences might play out when not in dom/aux position. I will add a few more comments, but first a caveat. I can comment on what annoys me about different communication styles, but I am not sure I can separate what comes specifically from using Fi vs. Fe. I suspect T vs F differences or even J vs. P might predominate in many of my observations. I will make them nonetheless, and perhaps others can figure out what drives what.

    To start, I agree substantially with Highlander here:

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This might be because I'm tert Fi, but I don't analyze my feelings. I have certain beliefs and convictions. I'm valuing what is important and what is not. I judge what is good and bad. I assess if I'm acting in accordance with my beliefs. I notice when people are acting phony. The way I look at it is I have my convictions/feelings and you have yours. It's really just that simple. I'll engage is a discussion about such things and it's not like they are completely unchangeable but they serve as a sort of core for me. As far as how that works or how these judgments are arrived at - I'm not sure.
    I don't analyze my feelings much, either. I can recognize when I am feeling overwhelmed or distracted by feelings, when it is getting in the way of my thinking processes, or just generally making me feel "bad". At these times, I try to look beyond it to what is causing the unpleasant feelings. Once I figure this out, the feelings themselves either dissipate, or at least are easily set aside to address the cause.

    Values and beliefs are another matter. I willingly discuss them if the circumstances warrant. I value internal consistency in my values and beliefs, and have little patience when the values/beliefs of others seem to lack this. I don't see it as my business to "correct" them, but will call them on it if they bring it up, especially if they are trying to push their values on me.

    I can't say I really take offense to different communication styles, simply because it is hard for me to take any of it personally. Even a style that is very combative and insulting I will see as a reflection on the speaker, and little to do with me. It is annoying to have to deal with, but no more offensive than the attire of someone who I think has terrible taste. With that, here are some things that really annoy me in communication:

    • Beating around the bush, using 100 words to say something that can be said in 30. Such a style is full of conversational red herrings and dead ends. This is inefficient, and makes it hard for me to figure out what the real point is. Just say it already.

    • Saying anything other than what you mean, unless as a joke, or in some dire situation where a lie might really be necessary. I take my words seriously, and yours as well. I listen carefully, and want to respect what you say. Don't rely on me to override what you tell me based on such nebulous "cues" as body language or tone of voice. Even if something tips me off that you don't mean what you say, it probably won't be enough to tell me what you DO mean. This forces me to ask, and depending on how forthcoming you are at this point, we may now be into "beating around the bush". It makes the whole discussion seem more bother than it is worth.

    • Mirroring back what I have just said, unless you are very briefly condensing a large amount of material. Again, this is inefficient, and makes me want to tell you to get on with it. Of course you should ask if you have questions. Time answering those is well spent.

    • Sugar-coating things - if there is a bitter pill inside, sooner or later we will get to it, might as well be sooner. This includes formulas like, "give a compliment before making a criticism". Share the comments you actually have, whether critical or complimentary. Say what needs to be said. As long as it is courteous and factual, I won't mind at all.

    • Touching during casual conversation - I cannot understand what people get out of this. Please keep your distance, unless we need to touch, or you want to shake hands as a greeting.

    • Smalltalk - why, just why? If you are someone I feel I must be very polite with, I will tolerate it, for awhile.

    • Asking personal questions - if you aren't someone very close to me, you probably don't need to know. I will volunteer what I want to share.

    • Asking me about emotions, commenting on what you think I am feeling, or heaven forbid, expecting me to feel what you would be feeling in similar circumstances. Comments that start with "you must be . . . " are bad: "you must be so relived that . . . ", "you must be excited to . . . ", "how sad it must be for you that . . . ". I have my own feelings about the events in my life, and prefer to keep them to myself. If you want to ask about the actual event - a death in the family, new house purchase, etc. that is better, as long as it is relevant and you are someone I will share that level of information with.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #128
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @fidelia

    I apologize for taking so long to respond to your questions. I've been kind of overwhelmed at work lately and haven't had a lot of free time.

    I am unsure of how Fi users handle offenses. I've known some who are like me and give the offender the opportunity to explain themselves. I know some who curse, mutter, mumble and fret over offenses and imagined offenses. I say imagined because I was there when the "offense" occurred and I heard the same thing but didn't take it to be an attack on anyone's person but rather a general statement. I also know Fi users who fly into the offender with an onslaught of colorful metaphors and interesting verbs, name calling, etc.

    However, on the flip side, I have an ENFJ sister and if she gets offended, the offender's gonna know it and there will be know doubt in anyone's mind that she is worked up.

    Me? I initially give the offender the benefit of the doubt and try to reason with the person. I'm pretty calm and I rarely get ruffled, at least not on the surface. However, if push comes to shove, I can get militant. I don't know of a better way to describe it.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #129
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [*]Beating around the bush, using 100 words to say something that can be said in 30. Such a style is full of conversational red herrings and dead ends. This is inefficient, and makes it hard for me to figure out what the real point is. Just say it already.
    I also hate it

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [*]Don't rely on me to override what you tell me based on such nebulous "cues" as body language or tone of voice.
    See, I've had this problem before with thinkers. This is the instance where I think we have to reach compromise, because non-verbal conversation is actually pretty important in my universe (and has been proven to be more important than verbal-communication for humans in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [*]Touching during casual conversation - I cannot understand what people get out of this. Please keep your distance, unless we need to touch, or you want to shake hands as a greeting.
    This is another thing I've been accused of doing but I don't even notice it. If I don't mean you harm, then what's the problem? It's not like I want to eat you, it's just an involuntary reaction and its part of my body language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [*]Asking me about emotions, commenting on what you think I am feeling, or heaven forbid, expecting me to feel what you would be feeling in similar circumstances.
    this i may also understand. because if i'm talking to a thinker and i'm feeling he's distant, and in particular if i notice that there must be hidden feelings and/or desires to why he's reacting or talking to me in a certain way, then i'll probably like to prod him for a while to see if we can increase the authenticity/productivity level of the conversation.

    Conclusion: I better stay away from INTJs!? lol

  10. #130
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post

    1. There is one thing I don't want to calibrate to and that is when someone tells me what I'm feeling, what my "true" motivations are. I suppose I can tolerate it until the exchange where I tell them they are wrong and they insist to know better than me. At that point it seems time to just leave the argument or debate so they can just say what I'm thinking/feeling, declare all the problems with it, then say what they're thinking/feeling and so forth. When people argue at me like that it does annoy me. Almost every Fi/Ti dom I know has done this and it's the only thing I can think of that I dislike about my communication with them, but it is a doozy. They do it less or stop when not very upset.
    This might not have anything to do with Fi/Fe because when people do this to me, it can very much annoy me. I think it would be fine if they were right but 9 times out of 10, they are completely wrong and probably projecting some of their own stuff onto me. This even happens with people who know me really well. I think this kind of behavior leads to a lot of misunderstandings. If you want to know what my feelings or motivations are, just ask me. I may not even know but a dialogue would be better than you guessing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Values and beliefs are another matter. I willingly discuss them if the circumstances warrant. I value internal consistency in my values and beliefs, and have little patience when the values/beliefs of others seem to lack this. I don't see it as my business to "correct" them, but will call them on it if they bring it up, especially if they are trying to push their values on me.
    A lot of your comments resonate with me. That consistency you mention is a big deal for me. It does bother me when others are inconsistent with their supposed values. I can think of a recent situation with a relative who is a quite religious person. She goes to church every day. She did something to really harm another relative (a very sweet an nice ISFJ) for little valid justification. She was overly controlling, unfair and allowed her ego to get in the way. I find this kind of inconsistency totally unacceptable and offensive. It bothers me on a moral level. Now she is generally a wonderful person, I hold no grudges against her and this whole situation was really none of my business but it makes me seriously question her judgment and in general think a whole lot less of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Beating around the bush, using 100 words to say something that can be said in 30. Such a style is full of conversational red herrings and dead ends. This is inefficient, and makes it hard for me to figure out what the real point is. Just say it already.
    Yes. Absolutely. This I believe is related to us being TJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Saying anything other than what you mean, unless as a joke, or in some dire situation where a lie might really be necessary. I take my words seriously, and yours as well. I listen carefully, and want to respect what you say. Don't rely on me to override what you tell me based on such nebulous "cues" as body language or tone of voice. Even if something tips me off that you don't mean what you say, it probably won't be enough to tell me what you DO mean. This forces me to ask, and depending on how forthcoming you are at this point, we may now be into "beating around the bush". It makes the whole discussion seem more bother than it is worth.
    I understand and agree with what you are saying but I think we have to recognize that there is such a thing as diplomacy and there is a reason for it. So I'm a bit more accepting of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Mirroring back what I have just said, unless you are very briefly condensing a large amount of material. Again, this is inefficient, and makes me want to tell you to get on with it. Of course you should ask if you have questions. Time answering those is well spent.
    I disagree with you on this. Paraphrasing is an effective communication technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sugar-coating things - if there is a bitter pill inside, sooner or later we will get to it, might as well be sooner. This includes formulas like, "give a compliment before making a criticism". Share the comments you actually have, whether critical or complimentary. Say what needs to be said. As long as it is courteous and factual, I won't mind at all.
    Again, there are the comments on diplomacy, which does have value. I heard a wise person once say, "People won't remember what you said but they will always remember how you made them feel." This being said, you have to get to the point and say what you need to say eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [*]Touching during casual conversation - I cannot understand what people get out of this. Please keep your distance, unless we need to touch, or you want to shake hands as a greeting.
    I think some people really have a problem with this and they are born like that. You have to respect it. This doesn't bother me at all though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Smalltalk - why, just why? If you are someone I feel I must be very polite with, I will tolerate it, for awhile.

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