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  1. #101
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).
    they're not completely unchangeable tho. that's where we have to jump inside your feeling space/experience and attempt to feel it as our own to see how we would feel. that's a lot of words to say empathize...sorry..but yeah...my starting point is my own experience but if a bridge needs to be built then i have to fully understand the other then i can make room for both understandings and formulate a compromise. ideally it would go both ways...we would both concern ourselves with completely understanding the other...and then act out of care for that feeling...not out of obligation...not because we're supposed to but because we felt it....and reached a place of true compassion.

    but i've found that even without it being a mutual experience...my ne fi can't help but put myself there and feel compassion for their actions/reasoning even if it's so completely wrong.( i say wrong because i'm referencing a personal situation where the person truly is all screwed up in the head. ) so in that instance it's not even labeling the behavior as okay...just simply...making sense of it...through fi...i suppose...in a way you do with ti.

    did i get off track? i feel like i've missed my original point. please tell me if i didn't answer the actual question.

    oh that's another point...i think you mentioned somewhere where you feel like we don't always answer all of the questions or something. i'm gonna just blame that one on ne.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #102
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is Ni flavoured Fe with me as a so dom that I'm relating. Can't speak for the other varieties. In my case anyway, I think it's because to me, nothing is neutral, not even silence or inaction. Therefore, depending on what I believe the motivation behind the action is, I will respond differently. For example, the other day my niece and I were travelling in the car. She was in a good mood and had asked if she could come along with me while I did some errands. On the way home, she was silent after a bit. I started telling her about something that happened the day before and there was no response at all. I looked out the window and she wasn't abstracted in thought. I said, "Hello?" and she said, "Oh yeah, I heard you." To me, I was frustrated because already I was doing her a favour (she had errands to do and didn't want to spend her own gas), there was no apparent reason for not responding, she had heard me, and to me it was obvious that I was not just communicating information but that I was trying to open up conversation. She doesn't do that generally to other people, and I don't tend to chat endlessly, so when I do, I'd like to be paid the courtesy of acknowledgement, as she would to people who do less for her and who care less about her. In addition, she frequently will come up when I am in the middle of something on the computer and expects me to direct my attention to her, so it feels like it is non-reciprocal. If the person is not feeling up to talking, I will pick up on that by the degree of enthusiasm in their response and act accordingly. I had to choke down momentary annoyance.

    Now, I realize to Fi sensibilities, this seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. To my Ni/Fe/Ti sensibilities, I read more messages into it than that she was just not chatty.

    Now as long as I have something to attribute the behaviour to that doesn't involve me, if the person brings up whatever is bothering them about me privately, or if I know that we are on good terms and all is well, then I am more likely to assume all is well unless informed otherwise. So, for me at least, it has to do with the subtext that I read into the inaction and the underlying carelessness for the relationship or less good motive that it represents to me.

    Is that of any help to you? I think the answer would be much different for NTPs, who generally are very good at letting things run off their backs without it affecting them too much or ENFJs, who tend to be more likely to make a definitive judgement on the situation and not feel as vulnerable about it (although I do notice that my ISTJ dad's inaction bothers my ENFJ mother). I do not have enough Fe users of the SJ or SP persuasions to really comment on that.
    niece is just impolite it would seem.

    funny the difference in how we would respond.

    you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
    me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #103
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    So the main way you would build a sense of compromise is to try to create the other person's feeling in yourself?

    That's so interesting! Thank you for explaining it to me. For me, I think I would ask questions so that I could understand why it mattered so much to them. I wonder what it's like for other Fe and Fi users.

    I couldn't understand before why several Fi users in another thread said something about their image of a person being like a mold they were making, but maybe this sheds some light on it. For me, it's like I have a whole pile of possibilities and by being able to rule out some of them, it's like lopping off the possibilities in a choose your own adventure book so that I can read the story line that is true for them. I'm still quite separate from them. It's just that I can get inside their head better if I know what pieces of information to assign the most weight to.

  4. #104
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    niece is just impolite it would seem.

    funny the difference in how we would respond.

    you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
    me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!
    I think I said, "It's not that I really think that not being able to see due to a sunset on a dusty gravel road was that exciting of a story. I said it because I was trying to start some conversation". She said, "Oh" and then didn't talk for the rest of the trip. I'm learning that she tends to do that when there are other worries on her mind. On the other hand, she also was not raised in a family environment where there was a lot of normal conversation or expectation of it, so I think some of it is that she is a few years behind in that way in some respects (but inconsistently so, so it always takes me by surprise). However, it is an example of inaction being something that I as a Fe user would take personally. It's helpful to know what it looks like to Fi eyes.

  5. #105
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).
    Just to be clear, fid- are you talking specifically about immediate feelings in the throes of upset/conflict? [Because it's one thing to say feelings seem changeable, and another to specifically say they often shift as a person calms down. I'd actually sort of have a problem with the former myself- but I don't think that's what you're saying? I don't expect people to put up with my immediate emotional turmoil before I've had a chance to cool down and make sure it was really caused by what I think caused it- THAT is the kind of 'feeling' I see as changeable, and that's the kind that agitates me to have unloaded on me. That's a totally different animal than the kind of feeling that's still there after some reflection...]

    [eta: sorry, I just saw potential for misunderstanding here and wanted to nip it in the bud, but just ignore if I'm missing something.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #106
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think I said, "It's not that I really think that not being able to see due to a sunset on a dusty gravel road was that exciting of a story. I said it because I was trying to start some conversation". She said, "Oh" and then didn't talk for the rest of the trip. I'm learning that she tends to do that when there are other worries on her mind. On the other hand, she also was not raised in a family environment where there was a lot of normal conversation or expectation of it, so I think some of it is that she is a few years behind in that way in some respects (but inconsistently so, so it always takes me by surprise). However, it is an example of inaction being something that I as a Fe user would take personally. It's helpful to know what it looks like to Fi eyes.
    well to add to that then...knowing the extra info. i might still say what i said if she didn't give any indication of being upset but if she responded with a flat sorry type of thing...i would probably think something was up and ask her if she's alright because she seems distant or lost in her head etc.

    so...just an example how we don't always just see it one way...we might start from that internal place but then explore it and make room for their feeling space...if that clarifies anything idk
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #107
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So the main way you would build a sense of compromise is to try to create the other person's feeling in yourself?

    That's so interesting! Thank you for explaining it to me. For me, I think I would ask questions so that I could understand why it mattered so much to them. I wonder what it's like for other Fe and Fi users.

    I couldn't understand before why several Fi users in another thread said something about their image of a person being like a mold they were making, but maybe this sheds some light on it. For me, it's like I have a whole pile of possibilities and by being able to rule out some of them, it's like lopping off the possibilities in a choose your own adventure book so that I can read the story line that is true for them. I'm still quite separate from them. It's just that I can get inside their head better if I know what pieces of information to assign the most weight to.
    yeah the internal processing is something like...

    how dare they just say that to me!? how could they think i'd be someone who would even think such things much less do such things!? do they not understand who i am at all!? what have we been doing this whole time? has this been a completely one sided experience? i thought we shared this bond...this understanding etc etc

    mad!! steam!! hurt!! rage!!

    then...step outside of that and into the other person...thinking about how they grew up and the experiences they've had...their friends their family...the town...music...what they said this time and that time...and the inner struggles...the insecurities...the fear...etc etc...you feel it...you can feel the innocence. you can feel the intentions...you can feel the pain etc you can feel what they need..

    nice relating back and forth conversations about what it feels like to the other...understanding...and compromise.

    sorry for my whole choppy explanation. i hope it makes some kind of sense.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #108
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    niece is just impolite it would seem.

    funny the difference in how we would respond.

    you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
    me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!
    I would definitely interpret it as either poor manners or just that she didn't feel like talking. It used to kill me when people didn't respond and it still does when I feel communication is necessary, but I feel like being so close with so many introverts, I am quick to tell myself "shut up. Not everyone wants to talk as much as you do."
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  9. #109
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yeah i'm not entirely sure about that myself... hypothetically Fi/Fe should be inclusive to TJs/TPs, but this seems more intended as an FP/FJ off continuity (with Ne/Ni shit getting muddled up.. some of it i am actually finding offensive).
    I have been thinking of this while reading the thread. Yes, T-types use Fi or Fe, too, but it seems the whole dynamic of an interaction would change substantially when F is in tert/inf position as opposed to dom/aux. I don't mean by this that T's have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Quite the contrary: I would like to gain more insight into how things play out in these cases. I have quoted a few examples of situations or concerns that I think would be strongly affected by the stronger T preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - only want to engage in a conversation if it's going to have some kind of productive outcome
    Yes, but driven by Te goal-orientedness, which is going to be much more impersonal than Fe, so socializing is not a priority

    - tendency to need to DO something to feel that I am helping, rather than just letting the person tell me what they need.
    Te demands this as well, at least as much as Fe, but I would rephrase it to say I need to know I am actually helping, not just feel that I am. Too easy to delude myself here.

    - expecting others to read subtext in what I say
    If you expect a T dom/aux to read subtext . . . well, good luck. On the other hand, Ni-dom can read plenty into most things, but probably not what is really there, especially when there is little Te substance to back it up, or what appears Te substance is contradictory.

    - making what sounds like definite judgements on a situation or on people (these don't sound as definite to me as they do to a Fi hearer - they are more like a Te or Ne hypothesis that is put out there until something that fits better is found).
    Ni-Te does this plenty, but with the force of "objectivity" behind them

    - I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better.
    If you aren't, so much less am I (despite being an Fi-users myself)
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there . . .
    Te can easily override any F considerations here, or at least force Fi to take a serious back seat.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh yeah - it's not that I expect every conversation to have a reason for being. I also enjoy just meeting people and visiting. On the other hand, if someone brings up something negative especially, I want to know what their intent is for bringing it up (do they want me to change something I'm doing? Are they venting? Are they trying to figure out why things are as they are? Are they just getting it all in the open?). I want to be able to respond in a way that is useful for them. I think for Fi users, they tend to think less about the intended outcome and just see where the talking about it takes them.
    Te-aux will not be content to think less about the outcome, especially when something negative is brought up. In a discussion just for fun, Fi might get more free rein, but Te won't be able to help trying to figure out where it is all going, even if the journey is enjoyable.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fi users (I think) see emotion as a part of themselves and as something that can't really be molded or shaped by their own or other's will or by information/perspective. Therefore, suggesting that the Fi user change the outward appearance of their emotion is maybe a form of personal rejection, more than a Fe user would find it to be. In that sense, I think Fe users frequently step on Fi users feelings and invalidate them. Similarly, Fe users often attribute the expression of negative emotion as being selfish or willful because they believe it is very much in the other person's power to alter.
    T will trump F here. Te (and perhaps also Ti), especially in introverts, will already be disinclined to outward displays of emotion. This is private territory, and likely besides the point as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh! Also, there would be no need to ask about the emotion being felt. That will either come out or else it is irrelevent. Kind of like talking to someone trapped in the upstairs of a burning house. Whether they are scared or whether they are full of adrenaline doesn't really matter right then. What matters is getting out alive. Fear is what prompts the person to get the heck out of the house, so it seems like a strange question to me because the answer seems obvious. I can only conclude though that Fi users process differently, because this response comes up over and over, so I've got to give it some credence as being a Fi thing.
    T over F again: keep your eyes on the practical goal and work consistently toward it. Fi values might be the driver, but emotion is on hold, at least for the duration.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If I direct negative emotions outward, it usually is with some intended purpose in mind. At my worst, it's a way of making people feel how unhappy I am at the moment and respond in some way (sulking, slamming doors, silent treatment, non-communicativeness would all fall into this category). At my best, it means that I have exhausted every variable that I can affect on my own and am now turning to you for assistance in altering the situation. Either way, there is some intended action in mind. Ideally, that should be verbalized, but many Fe users think they are speaking a universal language and so assume the other person sees their need and is just choosing to do nothing about it.
    Yes, please verbalize it. No, it is NOT a universal language. If you rely on me to interpret your "nonverbal cues", there is a good chance I will get it wrong, and neither of us will like the result.
    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    IFor example, it doesn’t matter to me what “tier” an Fe-user puts me on. That’s in the mind of the other person. If the “tier placement” manifests itself in a little coolness, that’s fine too. We don’t have to like each other; that’s immaterial in a boundaried relationship. As long as we can still communicate more or less respectfully, i.e., hear each other’s voices and mirror each other (address the points that the other person raised).
    Yes - the detached consideration of ideas, respectfully presented and discussed. How I feel doesn't matter. Either what you and I say makes sense, or it does not.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 09-12-2013 at 10:17 PM. Reason: added personal commentary to quotes
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #110
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have been thinking of this while reading the thread. Yes, T-types use Fi or Fe, too, but it seems the whole dynamic of an interaction would change substantially when F is in tert/inf position as opposed to dom/aux. I don't mean by this that T's have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Quite the contrary: I would like to gain more insight into how things play out in these cases. I have quoted a few examples of situations or concerns that I think would be strongly affected by the stronger T preference.
    welll...are you going to tell us? wait...where are the quotes?

    anyway...maybe you're mid edit. but i'd like to hear more t perspectives too.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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