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  1. #91
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    curious...why is it i wonder intjs seem to relate more to their fi than you all do to your fe? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!!???
    I'll hazard a guess that it's mostly because it's tertiary rather than inferior and in the same orientation (introverted) as their dominant position so it's a bit easier to swallow can coexist with the dominant perspective. With INTPs it's seems more suppressed/rejected with various comical/disastrous results due to being directly in opposition.



  2. #92
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Whenever I see the term Fe/Fi "users" used in the context of these sorts of threads I tend to assume we're talking about those with Feeling in either the first or second position. Mostly because I can never really relate, to pretty much anything that is discussed.
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  3. #93
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    This is interesting. I rarely get upset in the absence of action, and have noticed quite a few of the Fe users I'm close to become upset by it.

    Anyone have any ideas as to why?
    It needs tending like a garden? Probably just because it's for use in the "real world" and active emotional management and actions are seen as necessary to keep up that particular role? Or that's how it looks to me.

    That really bugs me. I mean, if I have a connection with someone, then I just do. It's like having an invisible chord attached to someone. I know it's there, I don't need to keep checking on it. When someone wants more "proof" in the form of action, I feel like they doubt my sincerity...something that is very painful to me.

    Communication phrasing...thinking that I mean something else when I say something out of being polite and then the dig or assumption into 'what I really mean' begins. What I say (emotional stuff) may come out clearer or appear to change as time goes on but that's because I'm still untangling everything. It doesn't mean I'm being fickle or have changed my mind.

  4. #94
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    Why I can only relate partially to most of what is said in these types of threads? lol Fe diplomacy drives me crazy and Fi tersenesss annoys me, generally speaking. I have pissed off plenty of Fe users by not being diplomatic enough and Fi users by not speaking my mind enough...

  5. #95
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    If I direct negative emotions outward, it usually is with some intended purpose in mind. At my worst, it's a way of making people feel how unhappy I am at the moment and respond in some way (sulking, slamming doors, silent treatment, non-communicativeness would all fall into this category). At my best, it means that I have exhausted every variable that I can affect on my own and am now turning to you for assistance in altering the situation.
    Thank you for this reminder today. It was helpful to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fi users (I think) see emotion as a part of themselves and as something that can't really be molded or shaped by their own or other's will or by information/perspective. Therefore, suggesting that the Fi user change the outward appearance of their emotion is maybe a form of personal rejection, more than a Fe user would find it to be. In that sense, I think Fe users frequently step on Fi users feelings and invalidate them. Similarly, Fe users often attribute the expression of negative emotion as being selfish or willful because they believe it is very much in the other person's power to alter.
    I'm not an Fi dom but this seems dead on. It's a really important point. The Fi person doesn't feel supported and yes they feel invalidated. ISFJs do this in the same way that INFJs do it.

    Fe types have a long way to go to match how Te dom/aux step on others feelings so it's all a matter of perspective. We expect less of them.

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  6. #96
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'll hazard a guess that it's mostly because it's tertiary rather than inferior and in the same orientation (introverted) as their dominant position so it's a bit easier to swallow can coexist with the dominant perspective. With INTPs it's seems more suppressed/rejected with various comical/disastrous results due to being directly in opposition.
    no right of course...i had a moment there where i remembered it being your tert function. sorry. that makes sense...but it is odd to me that the fi in intjs seems more noticeable than in istjs
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  7. #97
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    which is odd because isn't it said that fe users feel your feelings? i'm thinking that's not as accurate as what you mentioned in a previous post as feeling responsible for them. feeling blamed if they're negative or feel you need to manage them in some way for us.

    can you help me sort that out?
    In case this ship hasn't completely left the harbor- yeah, it's kinda weird how I'm averse to the 'feeling space' that Fi'ers seem to want dive into (I very much agree with fid that it's like someone jumping into the dangerous current with me instead of throwing a lifesaver device, it's the least helpful thing for me).....but at the same time it seems like there's something Fi'ers are somewhat oblivious to.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - not taking what seem to me very clearly delineated danger warnings to heart and then feeling upset when I get blunt. I still am not sure what goes wrong there. From one of the threads I think I concluded that the signals are seen but the Fi user is protesting against their unfairness. But I'm not sure if that's accurate, and if it was accurate in that situation, how generalized to Fi that is or isn't.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For me, I take longer to heat up and longer to cool down. If I am agitated, I'd rather be agitated privately and remove myself enough that I can feel more objective again. I find I get increasingly blunt and direct the closer someone starts following me when I am feeling like that.
    I think that Fe’ers are better at seeing the heating up process in each other and seeing the signs to ‘back off’ for what they are. I don’t really know what to do about this either, because it really does seem to me like I’m clearly indicating ‘back off’. It’s hard to learn how to be more clear, or to explicitly state what my internal state is. It really does feel like being in a house that’s on fire- and having to explain to someone, using words, that we must leave quickly because the house is on fire. The more they look at me puzzled, the more I simply want to point to the fire. It feels so completely obvious, it’s hard to remember that anyone might actually need me to clearly state it in words. And even when I think I’m being clear, apparently it’s still too vague.

    This caused problems between me and my eNTJ ex-husband. And it continues to cause problems between him and our INFJ son.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yes, I can see how this sounds confusing. Certainly I do feel my feelings. However, the more intense they are, the difficult I find it to take any kind of action. I don't trust that I am being objective. I need help distancing myself enough that I can look at the situation in an informed way and make a decision for myself out of the possible choices.


    [...] Ideally, that should be verbalized, but many Fe users think they are speaking a universal language and so assume the other person sees their need and is just choosing to do nothing about it. (Think of the stereotypical men are from mars women are from venus type scenarios). Fe users often don't realize that they are using the same words, but that they mean different things to some extent, so the Fi user may not recognize their request as a request.
    And yeah, as the temperature rises it gets harder and harder to figure out the ‘right’ way to say it. It’s like my access to the right words to use progressively flies out the window as the temperature rises. It’s a sticky catch-22.

    I need to learn some clear phrases to use or something. If Fi'ers are talking to someone and hear simply “I need you to back off”….is that a way of clearly expressing the need for space to calm down? Is that still too vague?



    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - moodiness and inconsistency really makes me uncomfortable. It feels emotionally threatening and undermines my trust. It also feels very personally directed even when it is not. Fi users seem to have a higher tolerance for this.
    - not attempting to do something you don't really want to (but don't have any value-based conviction against) for the sake of someone you care about seems like a personal slap in the face to me. I think maybe Fi users see it more separately from the person in question.
    This is the only part of fid’s original posts that I don’t especially relate to. I don’t take it personally when someone is moody. [I suspect so variant is afoot in this, possibly.]

    And the second thing- it’s funny, this is something that really depends on the person. The tendency itself doesn’t bother me, it’s the double standard that some people have that really gets to me. If it’s someone who expects me to participate in events because they want me to, then yes, I think it’s selfish of them to expect to not have to do that in return. But if someone doesn’t get offended by my lack of participation in events that don’t interest me personally then I don’t get offended by their lack of participation.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The other thing he has done well is defining the boundaries of the discussion. He is accommodating, but still brings things back to what the original aim was. This is tremendously reassuring for me, because Ni/Ti can overwhelm me with so many details, that it is difficult for me to decide what belongs in the discussion and what goes outside of it. By him making clear what it is that he needs, it not only makes it more likely that I can deliver it, but it also helps me reign in and trim the information that makes it more manageable. Then he even giftwraps it up with a nice summarized form!
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  8. #98
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    This is interesting. I rarely get upset in the absence of action, and have noticed quite a few of the Fe users I'm close to become upset by it.

    Anyone have any ideas as to why?
    This is Ni flavoured Fe with me as a so dom that I'm relating. Can't speak for the other varieties. In my case anyway, I think it's because to me, nothing is neutral, not even silence or inaction. Therefore, depending on what I believe the motivation behind the action is, I will respond differently. For example, the other day my niece and I were travelling in the car. She was in a good mood and had asked if she could come along with me while I did some errands. On the way home, she was silent after a bit. I started telling her about something that happened the day before and there was no response at all. I looked out the window and she wasn't abstracted in thought. I said, "Hello?" and she said, "Oh yeah, I heard you." To me, I was frustrated because already I was doing her a favour (she had errands to do and didn't want to spend her own gas), there was no apparent reason for not responding, she had heard me, and to me it was obvious that I was not just communicating information but that I was trying to open up conversation. She doesn't do that generally to other people, and I don't tend to chat endlessly, so when I do, I'd like to be paid the courtesy of acknowledgement, as she would to people who do less for her and who care less about her. In addition, she frequently will come up when I am in the middle of something on the computer and expects me to direct my attention to her, so it feels like it is non-reciprocal. If the person is not feeling up to talking, I will pick up on that by the degree of enthusiasm in their response and act accordingly. I had to choke down momentary annoyance.

    Now, I realize to Fi sensibilities, this seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. To my Ni/Fe/Ti sensibilities, I read more messages into it than that she was just not chatty.

    Now as long as I have something to attribute the behaviour to that doesn't involve me, if the person brings up whatever is bothering them about me privately, or if I know that we are on good terms and all is well, then I am more likely to assume all is well unless informed otherwise. So, for me at least, it has to do with the subtext that I read into the inaction and the underlying carelessness for the relationship or less good motive that it represents to me.

    Is that of any help to you? I think the answer would be much different for NTPs, who generally are very good at letting things run off their backs without it affecting them too much or ENFJs, who tend to be more likely to make a definitive judgement on the situation and not feel as vulnerable about it (although I do notice that my ISTJ dad's inaction bothers my ENFJ mother). I do not have enough Fe users of the SJ or SP persuasions to really comment on that.

  9. #99
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm not an Fi dom but this seems dead on. It's a really important point. The Fi person doesn't feel supported and yes they feel invalidated. ISFJs do this in the same way that INFJs do it.

    Fe types have a long way to go to match how Te dom/aux step on others feelings so it's all a matter of perspective. We expect less of them.
    This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).

  10. #100
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is Ni flavoured Fe with me as a so dom that I'm relating. Can't speak for the other varieties. In my case anyway, I think it's because to me, nothing is neutral, not even silence or inaction. Therefore, depending on what I believe the motivation behind the action is, I will respond differently. For example, the other day my niece and I were travelling in the car. She was in a good mood and had asked if she could come along with me while I did some errands. On the way home, she was silent after a bit. I started telling her about something that happened the day before and there was no response at all. I looked out the window and she wasn't abstracted in thought. I said, "Hello?" and she said, "Oh yeah, I heard you." To me, I was frustrated because already I was doing her a favour (she had errands to do and didn't want to spend her own gas), there was no apparent reason for not responding, she had heard me, and to me it was obvious that I was not just communicating information but that I was trying to open up conversation. She doesn't do that generally to other people, and I don't tend to chat endlessly, so when I do, I'd like to be paid the courtesy of acknowledgement, as she would to people who do less for her and who care less about her. In addition, she frequently will come up when I am in the middle of something on the computer and expects me to direct my attention to her, so it feels like it is non-reciprocal. If the person is not feeling up to talking, I will pick up on that by the degree of enthusiasm in their response and act accordingly. I had to choke down momentary annoyance.

    Now, I realize to Fi sensibilities, this seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. To my Ni/Fe/Ti sensibilities, I read more messages into it than that she was just not chatty.

    Now as long as I have something to attribute the behaviour to that doesn't involve me, if the person brings up whatever is bothering them about me privately, or if I know that we are on good terms and all is well, then I am more likely to assume all is well unless informed otherwise. So, for me at least, it has to do with the subtext that I read into the inaction and the underlying carelessness for the relationship or less good motive that it represents to me.

    Is that of any help to you? I think the answer would be much different for NTPs, who generally are very good at letting things run off their backs without it affecting them too much or ENFJs, who tend to be more likely to make a definitive judgement on the situation and not feel as vulnerable about it (although I do notice that my ISTJ dad's inaction bothers my ENFJ mother). I do not have enough Fe users of the SJ or SP persuasions to really comment on that.
    Yeah that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I notice it most with the ENFJs in my life actually. Also the ESFJs, but they seem to be more concerned with what people do or don't do whole the ENFJs are a little more sensitive to words or attitudes.

    I'm super responsive usually, so I don't think this is a conflict I create, but I see or hear them get upset about that kind of thing, and don't understand the process they went through to arrive at that place. It makes more sense now I think
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