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Who's craziest: INFJ or INTJ?

Is INFJ or INTJ the craziest?


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Avocado

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The INTJs as you say may be more subjective about their beliefs on the nature of things, go more with what they wish for rather than what fits with the world.



Seeing things from a more tentative perspective versus a more tenacious view could be less crazy, as there's more of a questioning about things, which could lead to a more clear knowledge than just fighting for whatever productions spring forth from the self. Based on that, Fi would be a better supplement to craziness than Ti.

Ti is more rational...
Te-dom just acts with out inner thinking or outer knowlege gathering, it seems...
 

RaptorWizard

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Ti is more rational...
Te-dom just acts with out inner thinking or outer knowlege gathering, it seems...

For the first, yes.
For the second, incomplete.

Action and decisiveness is there for them sure, but many with the good Te I know are very good at referencing external frameworks.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Agreed. At least we INTJs tend to have a method in our madness, and Te is pretty good at reality checking.

Yes, there's that, but it seems to me that not all INTJs are equally good at using with Te. A lot of them think they are, but it's really just Fi convictions and things that they just "know". For this type of INTJ, the only utility Te ever seems to have is cherry-picking data to support Ni-Fi insights/convictions.

I find that, on the internet, the INTJ with shitty Te is more common than the ones with good Te. I'd say you seem to be one of the ones with good Te.

The INTJs as you say may be more subjective about their beliefs on the nature of things, go more with what they wish for rather than what fits with the world.

Yes... exactly. And that seems crazy and illogical, and often irritating.


Seeing things from a more tentative perspective versus a more tenacious view could be less crazy, as there's more of a questioning about things, which could lead to a more clear knowledge than just fighting for whatever productions spring forth from the self.

It may not lead to more clear knowledge, but it will lead to knowledge that is less likely to be false.

I think constantly questioning things is less likely to be productive, but the flip side of that is that it is less likely to be harmful.
 

Lexicon

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I'd say NF's in general tend to be less likely (compared to Thinkers) to fact-check to make sure their assumptions are grounded in reality to some degree. Some will lose sight of what is over what they believe should be, as well. Of course, I'm speaking terribly broadly here.

Then again, INTJ's can have very unrealistic expectations, with low patience.

All depends on how one defines crazy, really.


Ain't we all.
 

Avocado

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For the first, yes.
For the second, incomplete.

Action and decisiveness is there for them sure, but many with the good Te I know are very good at referencing external frameworks.
I see...
So, I postulate that Ti comes from long, gentle, contemplation about the mysteries of the universe...
...and Te is just "roughing" it and slapping down "What works"
 

Sunny Ghost

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I think INFJs would have a higher frequency of craziness but a crazy INTJ would be crazier than a crazy INFJ :). The crazy INTJ would also likely do more damage because they are less likely to care about other people - but of course there is Hitler who was an INFJ.

I second this.
 

highlander

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Yes, there's that, but it seems to me that not all INTJs are equally good at using with Te. A lot of them think they are, but it's really just Fi convictions and things that they just "know". For this type of INTJ, the only utility Te ever seems to have is cherry-picking data to support Ni-Fi insights/convictions.

I find that, on the internet, the INTJ with shitty Te is more common than the ones with good Te. I'd say you seem to be one of the ones with good Te.

This is a very interesting set of comments. I believe you are right about observing the Fi convictions and how those can be less than optimal. I'd never thought about that much. I don't think your second bolded comment seems correct however. INTJs develop Te pretty early. They have to.

There is a common conflict between INTJs and INTPs that I've seen online which in my experience happens less in real life. It seems evident to me that the INTPs get frustrated with the INTJs (more than the other way around). I think it has to do with the fact that INTJs and INTPs share no common functions in their top 4. I also have the sense that INTPs sometimes also feel that Ni + Te produces sloppy thinking which is especially noticeable to them in the context of online discussions/debates. The thing I would keep in mind above all is that INTJs truly are dominant perceivers as much as they might appear to the outside world to be different than that.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Agreed. At least we INTJs tend to have a method in our madness, and Te is pretty good at reality checking.

This is a very interesting set of comments. I believe you are right about observing the Fi convictions and how those can be less than optimal. I'd never thought about that much. I don't think your second bolded comment seems correct however. INTJs develop Te pretty early. They have to.

That's possible. It might be an example of the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I can't think of a better metaphor, sorry.




I also have the sense that INTPs sometimes also feel that Ni + Te produces sloppy thinking which is especially noticeable to them in the context of online discussions/debates.

Oh, I definitely feel this way when I have discussions with some INTJs. It only bugs me more when, rather than acknowledging this, and either providing clarification, refutations, or retractions, they'll merely throw in some bullshit comment about how I'm not seeing the light or "being objective" and imply that the fault lies with me for not being "intelligent" enough to understand what they are saying. That's when they don't try and ignore the thing entirely by suddenly trying to shift to some new "fact" that has suddenly become more important.


The thing I would keep in mind above all is that INTJs truly are dominant perceivers as much as they might appear to the outside world to be different than that.

Oh, that's obvious to me, and why the Socionics way makes more sense to me. The thing is, some INTJs speak as though they aren't fluid dynamic percievers, but rather hard-nosed judging extraverted thinkers. They don't have opinions, thoughts or beliefs, merely "facts" that they have discovered.

That's when they start to annoy me. I realized recently that I must have been arguing with INTJs for a long time, because it's not the first time I've gotten annoyed by someone throwing out something totally subjective and unsupported, and said that I am "clouded by personal bias" or "not objective" for not simply rolling with their unsupported assertions.
 

Coriolis

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Oh, I definitely feel this way when I have discussions with some INTJs. It only bugs me more when, rather than acknowledging this, and either providing clarification, refutations, or retractions, they'll merely throw in some bullshit comment about how I'm not seeing the light or "being objective" and imply that the fault lies with me for not being "intelligent" enough to understand what they are saying. That's when they don't try and ignore the thing entirely by suddenly trying to shift to some new "fact" that has suddenly become more important.

Oh, that's obvious to me, and why the Socionics way makes more sense to me. The thing is, some INTJs speak as though they aren't fluid dynamic percievers, but rather hard-nosed judging extraverted thinkers. They don't have opinions, thoughts are beliefs, merely "facts" that they have discovered.
I usually present conclusions, along with at least an outline of the facts and reasoning that support them. I try to be good about identifying assumptions, speculations, and personal value judgments. I have no problem when people ask for clarification, or refute my conclusions specifically, with their own reasoning. Unfortunately, not too many people online do a good job of that kind of critique. I see more emotional or empty objections (various unsupported forms of "you're wrong"), and occasionally personal attacks/insults. Very unsatisfying.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I usually present conclusions, along with at least an outline of the facts and reasoning that support them. I try to be good about identifying assumptions, speculations, and personal value judgments. I have no problem when people ask for clarification, or refute my conclusions specifically, with their own reasoning. Unfortunately, not too many people online do a good job of that kind of critique. I see more emotional or empty objections (various unsupported forms of "you're wrong"), and occasionally personal attacks/insults. Very unsatisfying.

For what it's worth, you're not one of the INTJs I was talking about, and I actually really enjoy having discussions with you.

I guess the crux of the matter is that the discussion tactics of some INTJs annoy me, while the discussion tactics of other INTJs do not.

I think the ones that annoy me are stuck in some kind Ni-Fi thing.
 

highlander

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I usually present conclusions, along with at least an outline of the facts and reasoning that support them. I try to be good about identifying assumptions, speculations, and personal value judgments. I have no problem when people ask for clarification, or refute my conclusions specifically, with their own reasoning. Unfortunately, not too many people online do a good job of that kind of critique. I see more emotional or empty objections (various unsupported forms of "you're wrong"), and occasionally personal attacks/insults. Very unsatisfying.

To be fair though, I don't think most INTJs do this. If have to convince others of something, I will do some of these things because I realize the importance in achieving the end result that I need to get. I will provide reasoning if asked. You're right about the emotional or dismissive objectives - which appear just as unfounded as I presume we can sometimes appear. I think on average INTJs have a bigger problem with doing that than INTPs. A Ti laden argument can be draining for me to read through.
 

highlander

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For what it's worth, you're not one of the INTJs I was talking about, and I actually really enjoy having discussions with you.

I guess the crux of the matter is that the discussion tactics of some INTJs annoy me, while the discussion tactics of other INTJs do not.

I think the ones that annoy me are stuck in some kind Ni-Fi thing.

I think there is also a lack of patience with the Ti style of argument. All that detailed logic flys in the face of the way an INTJ's cognitive functions work. Ni converges on an answer and Te is used to validate that against the outer world and Fi against the individual's values. They simply don't think the way you do. Both types generally have really thought through things pretty deeply but in a dramatically different way so it naturally can lead to lack of understanding.
 

Coriolis

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To be fair though, I don't think most INTJs do this. If have to convince others of something, I will do some of these things because I realize the importance in achieving the end result that I need to get. I will provide reasoning if asked.
I suspect this is something INTJs get better at as we mature. Younger ones may be more ready to spout Ni conclusions without bothering to provide (or even think through) the Te underpinnings. My thought processes work in the same order, I just hold off presenting anything until I am willing to provide some support for it.

I think there is also a lack of patience with the Ti style of argument. All that detailed logic flys in the face of the way an INTJ's cognitive functions work. Ni converges on an answer and Te is used to validate that against the outer world and Fi against the individual's values. They simply don't think the way you do. Both types generally have really thought through things pretty deeply but in a dramatically different way so it naturally can lead to lack of understanding.
Not all INTPs bother even trying to present a logical argument. Some resort to the kind of empty or emotional dismissal I mentioned earlier.
 

highlander

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I suspect this is something INTJs get better at as we mature. Younger ones may be more ready to spout Ni conclusions without bothering to provide (or even think through) the Te underpinnings. My thought processes work in the same order, I just hold off presenting anything until I am willing to provide some support for it.

I think you are right about this and I agree with you that we get better at it as we mature. On the flip side, the problem is that you can't always do what you suggest (in terms of holding off presenting anything). In my work for example things are too dynamic. I am pulled into one thing after another at a moments notice and have to react. There is one issue to be resolved, then another problem that has to be solved and then an opportunity that I have to react to and key meeting that's been set up with a client to discuss a topic then I'm reviewing lots of other people's work. I spend a lot of time in meetings often without a much time to prepare for them. There simply isn't time to hold off on presenting my thoughts or point of view. For years when I was younger, I would wish to be an extravert because these situations seemed easier for them.

Not all INTPs bother even trying to present a logical argument. Some resort to the kind of empty or emotional dismissal I mentioned earlier.

True
 

Coriolis

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I think you are right about this and I agree with you that we get better at it as we mature. On the flip side, the problem is that you can't always do what you suggest (in terms of holding off presenting anything). In my work for example things are too dynamic. I am pulled into one thing after another at a moments notice and have to react. There is one issue to be resolved, then another problem that has to be solved and then an opportunity that I have to react to and key meeting that's been set up with a client to discuss a topic then I'm reviewing lots of other people's work. I spend a lot of time in meetings often without a much time to prepare for them. There simply isn't time to hold off on presenting my thoughts or point of view. For years when I was younger, I would wish to be an extravert because these situations seemed easier for them.
Practice, practice, practice! First, I'm sure you, like I, have developed enough confidence in our intuitions that we know when we can present them without this foundation, because we know it is there. That being said, you might be surprised how good a case you can make for something in just the couple of minutes it takes to hear out the speaker before you. This is a bit like that Toastmasters' trick of lining up your three main points as you walk to the front of the room to give an impromptu speech.

Once I sketched out to a middle manager a plan for relocating my group's entire lab facilities that I had worked out in the 5 minutes we had been talking. He received it as if I had been working on it for weeks. Because I could easily "see" the end result and the underlying motivation/benefit, and knew the priorities and constraints in my organization, as well as how this manager operated, the words necessary to flesh out and support the overall idea just fell into place as we talked.
 

violet_crown

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INFJ crazy is without question the Rolls Royce of crazy. Reality fucks with INTJs too much for them to even close to the level of batshit insanity I've seen in some INFJs.
 

Udog

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INFJ crazy is without question the Rolls Royce of crazy. Reality fucks with INTJs too much for them to even close to the level of batshit insanity I've seen in some INFJs.

You are just lucky enough to have not met the right INTJ yet!
 

Forever

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INFJ's Inside. INTJ's Outside. Don't know too many of either, but I seen a whole lot more INTJ's seeming content, but it's not a definite decision. I see myself as crazy sometimes.:wack:
 
R

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INFJs have more votes than INTJs? I always knew that INFJs were undeserving of love and shit but this?

Then again I know only a very few INFJs from rl. One of them is bat shit crazy but mostly so because it's a he and we all know it's a curse to be a INFJ male. However he is one of the kindest, sanest persons I know.
 

BrownSugar

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INTJ- If you hurt the one I love, I will kill you and no one would ever find the body, because I don't love too many people.
INFJ- If you hurt the one they love, I will kill you and everyone will know where to find the body because she was the love of my life.
ENTJ - You will never get the chance to hurt the one I love, because I will figure it out and hire someone to kill you because I WIN ALWAYS.

My ex-husband- INTJ
My ex-boyfriend-INFJ
My present boyfriend-ENTJ

INFJ's are wonderful and INTJs are too (if you realize that they really do love you)--As far as ENTJs...jury is still out on that one!!
 
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