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  1. #1
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Post Lawlessness vs lawfulness

    ...If that title made any sense, then that's the first "normal" thing I did all day xDD

    So. How I would understand if my conscious places an emphasis on being lawful or not. I was reading that website that talks about all the functions, and the dude (Jung?) said that people whose main focus is using a judging function will lead a life with some kind of conviction and try to make life 'rational' while those whose conscious places on emphasis on perceiving functions just experience life as it is (it's not that they aren't selective with how they live their lives... they just don't consciously try to put life's happenstances in an order ...I guess?). I know this might be asking "do I lead with a judging function or a perceiving function, BUT ...but, I don't think that's what I want to ask; it would imply that I am going by the modern MBTI concepts, and I'd like to see how my cognitive processes would make sense based on Jung's own ideas.

    here is a quote... cause I am shit at expressing myself...

    The rational would say that rapport with the irrational depends purely upon chance. If, by some accident, the objective situations are exactly in tune, something like a human relationship takes place, but nobody can tell what will be either its validity or its duration. To the rational type it is often a very bitter thought that the relationship will last only just so long as external circumstances accidentally produce a mutual interest. This does not occur to him as being especially human, whereas it is precisely in this situation that the irrational sees a humanity of quite singular beauty. Accordingly each regards the other as a man destitute of relationships, upon whom no reliance can be placed, and with whom one can never get on decent terms. Such a result, however, is reached only when one consciously tries to make some estimate of the nature of one's relationships with one's fellow-men. Although a psychological conscientiousness of [p. 471] this kind is by no means usual, yet it frequently happens that, notwithstanding an absolute difference of standpoint, a kind of rapport does take place, and in the following way. The one assumes with unspoken projection that the other is, in all essential points, of the same opinion as himself, while the other divines or senses an objective community of interest, of which, however, the former has no conscious inkling and whose existence he would at once dispute, just as it would never occur to the latter that his relationship must rest upon a common point-of-view. A rapport of this kind is by far the most frequent; it rests upon projection, which is the source of many subsequent misunderstandings.
    So yah... can the intelligent/typologically educated (or almost any human who spends a crap ton of time thinking about these things ...idk) people of this forum help me make sense of this? Thankalanks ^_^
    @highlander HAAALLLPPP ...if you don't mind
    Last edited by thoughtlost; 09-10-2013 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    P.S: You know your life is fucked up when your roommate asks you "Hey so you remember Jung (a friend whose first name is Jung), right?" and you respond ENTHUSIASTICALLY "OMG CARL JUNG" and then you're prepared to have a discussion about him...

    ...and then your roommate stops talking to stare at you for ten seconds until you come back to reality ^_^

  3. #3
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I would think that Judgers would fit in more accordingly with lawfulness and Perceivers are more lawless.

    But not always.

    I don't know that I fully understand your question. I you trying to figure out your own type?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  4. #4
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It depends on a lot of things. My INTP partner is more lawful than I am, despite my being a J. In our case, I think it has more to do with his being from a more middle class background, while my background is more white trash. I'm Neutral, though, not chaotic. I just think there is a higher law than the law and that most laws are made to benefit the upper classes. They shouldn't be broken willy-nilly, but it's not like they came down to Moses on the mountain, either.

    I did not read the quoted material, though. It made my eyes cross.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #5
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    I would think that Judgers would fit in more accordingly with lawfulness and Perceivers are more lawless.

    But not always.

    I don't know that I fully understand your question. I you trying to figure out your own type?
    Yeah, that is what Jung said. I hope you're keeping in mind that I am not talking about morality in the traditional sense. Jung's work is very abstract so I feel like he uses words that don't really mean what we'd expect them to mean.

  6. #6
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It depends on a lot of things. My INTP partner is more lawful than I am, despite my being a J. In our case, I think it has more to do with his being from a more middle class background, while my background is more white trash. I'm Neutral, though, not chaotic. I just think there is a higher law than the law and that most laws are made to benefit the upper classes. They shouldn't be broken willy-nilly, but it's not like they came down to Moses on the mountain, either.

    I did not read the quoted material, though. It made my eyes cross.
    Well, I am not talking about morality or social constructs (it sounds like that is what you're getting at when you say your husband is from a different class than you).

    Let me try to paint it this way: Jung talked about Te doms living their lives according to an order, a doctrine of some sort. I think he means that they bring their actions in line with their conscious thoughts. I like (key word: like) to use my dad as an example. His philosophy in life is that the reason why we are alive is because we work; you cannot survive (your physical body cannot survive) if you do not use it. With that said, I was able to converge all of his life's actions into a Te mind set. How introverted sneaks up on people like him is when Fi (the subjective and individualistic ways in which life can be lived) sneaks upon him. He's unable to consciously appreciate even successful people who deviate from his way of "working to live" (not that he's a jerk ...he's not ...he simply tends to be all "...well, that's okay if that's how things work for them, but you can tell that he can't truly take them seriously).

    I could be wrong (about everything ever in life ...lol jkjk I mean that I could be wrong about the definitions of Te/Fi), but that's my understanding of living a lawful life.

    Would you like me to put up the link that talks about everything? I don't know if you'd want to read ALL of it though...

    Edit: Actually, according to my understanding... it makes perfect sense that your INTP would live life more lawfully than you. You use intuition first while his is secondary. His intuition would be easily manipulated by his Ti. J and P has almost nothing to do with it unless you lead with a judging function instead of having it secondary ...then you could compare you to your INTP.

  7. #7
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtlost View Post
    Yeah, that is what Jung said. I hope you're keeping in mind that I am not talking about morality in the traditional sense. Jung's work is very abstract so I feel like he uses words that don't really mean what we'd expect them to mean.
    What exactly are you asking about it, though?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  8. #8
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    What exactly are you asking about it, though?
    I just wanted to understand what Jung meant by people living a lawful life vs. a lawless one. Like what does all of that look like if Jung's speculations made sense in today's reality?

    Edit: I think the reason why I sound so unclear is because I am hoping to get an answer that takes into consideration that Jung probably didn't see personality/psych type the way we see it today. I don't know if many people here truly know where he was coming from when he made up his ideas. So that's why I don't want the answer peppered with Myers Briggs language or anything like that; not that it isn't useful, it just wouldn't help me to understand where Jung was coming from.

    Here's the link that is causing me to ask the question in the first place:

    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

  9. #9
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Ah! Seems like you've got it figured out.

    I keep thinking of the D&D grid.

    Here's one example:
    http://rantingsoftheninjarobot.files...ter-custom.jpg
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  10. #10
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Ah! Seems like you've got it figured out.

    I keep thinking of the D&D grid.

    Here's one example:
    http://rantingsoftheninjarobot.files...ter-custom.jpg

    Wait, what? ...I don't know anything about Harry Potter lol.
    And what are you referring to when you say I have it figured out?

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