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  1. #31
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Actually not all feeling judgments are rational(i assume you meant this word instead of logical), as there are two types of feeling, passive(which is irrational) and active(which is rational). When you get a feeling about the worth of something without really contemplating on it, its an unconscious feeling judgment which comes through intuition and is irrational because it lacks the conscious evaluation and thus is passive. Only when the feeling judgment comes from active conscious evaluation, it is rational because, well thats the definition of rational
    Active, directed feeling is basically Dominant Feeling. The dominant function is the most active, conscious thinking in a person, which is why you experience it as "yourself" or your ego.

    The passive feeing described is feeling undifferentiated from emotion & perceptions, IMO. That's how someone with inferior Feeling tends to experience it, hence their common insistence on feeling not being rational thought.

    And no, I meant logical. I specifically choose certain words for a reason. I used "logical" because I was referring to a specific quote from Jung, which I included in my post.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #32
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ You could highlight other parts also...context is important, including that outside of this block of text.



    Notice he says feeling incurs emotional affect after attaining a certain strength. The emotion is then a signal used to communicate weight to others or a signal to the self of a value being met/violated. That does not make the emotional response & feeling judging process the same, as the formation of the feeling judgments is the judging process, whereas the value that may stir an emotional affect is a product of it. A feeling-value cannot attain a strength before it is formed, only after.
    I think that these physical innervations that jung is talking about is what gives rise to the activating/deactivation dimension in that theory of emotion that i posted.

    I dont really agree completely with what you said about the strength which the feeling evaluation gets comes only after the judgment, not before it. I think that the process might get strong signal to begin with and thus often produce a strong judgment, or it might get a smaller signal and get stronger in the process. Other regions might amplify or repress the signal based on personal complexes, F might do that aswell or it might go through F then be amplified by other regions and get back to F.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Active, directed feeling is basically Dominant Feeling. The dominant function is the most active, conscious thinking in a person, which is why you experience it as "yourself" or your ego.

    The passive feeing described is feeling undifferentiated from emotion & perceptions, IMO. That's how someone with inferior Feeling tends to experience it, hence their common insistence on feeling not being rational thought.

    And no, I meant logical. I specifically choose certain words for a reason. I used "logical" because I was referring to a specific quote from Jung, which I included in my post.
    I dont agree that active feeling is dom F. I mean dom F types use active feeling more often and naturally than those with inferior F for example, but dom F types are also REALLY heavily influenced by their passive feelings, maybe not as much as F aux types often are, but definitely more than T types usually are. I think that when undeveloped F is used in T types, its most often passive F, not active as active F requires some differentiation, but T types with developed F are capable of doing active F, but it requires more effort and the whole process doesent start so easily.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #34
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Actually not all feeling judgments are rational(i assume you meant this word instead of logical), as there are two types of feeling, passive(which is irrational) and active(which is rational). When you get a feeling about the worth of something without really contemplating on it, its an unconscious feeling judgment which comes through intuition and is irrational because it lacks the conscious evaluation and thus is passive. Only when the feeling judgment comes from active conscious evaluation, it is rational because, well thats the definition of rational
    OK, this is what I've been looking for and trying to articulate recently. The way I put it was:

    Unconscious F: just reacting to emotions or impulsively going for what’s “liked”
    conscious F: looking at the emotion, or what is liked, and making a rational decision based on it.
    (Everyone will do the former at times, but the difference is that the Feelers will be more likely to do the latter in normal circumstances).

    Similarly, other functions:
    Unconscious: just routinely experiencing sensations, dealing with a concepts or using logic as the situations come.
    Conscious: a stronger focus on the sensations, concepts or logic.

    I had deduced this myself from trying to separate the "feelings", "likes", "values", etc. everyone has from the true function, and didn't know Jung had pretty articulated the same thing.
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  5. #35
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I think that these physical innervations that jung is talking about is what gives rise to the activating/deactivation dimension in that theory of emotion that i posted.

    I dont really agree completely with what you said about the strength which the feeling evaluation gets comes only after the judgment, not before it. I think that the process might get strong signal to begin with and thus often produce a strong judgment, or it might get a smaller signal and get stronger in the process. Other regions might amplify or repress the signal based on personal complexes, F might do that aswell or it might go through F then be amplified by other regions and get back to F.
    Well, as an F-dom I will tell you that these passive feelings (often called "feeling tones" also by people, whether or not Jung meant that) are generally considered like an emotion, as far as a recognition they are not rational. They are dealt with similarly - as signals to be reasoned on. It's not unusual for them to be signaling a feeling-concept already created - that's why perception is a part of it. It's recognition of a manifestation of a value.

    I experience a contrast between this & active feeling, which is what I consider my "thinking".

    Frequently, F-dom do speak of "reasoning in reverse", or starting with a "whole feeling" and then considering what it means, if it can be made sense of, how it relates to existing feelings, etc. The final feeling is then one formed with reason, with the initial feeling dealt with similarly as a pure emotion.

    What F-dom tend to recognize is that short of wacky hormones & emotional illness, most emotional responses have a reason. Whether or not it's a good reason or in proportion to the strength of the emotion is to be determined by analyzing it.

    Once you have built up a base of what all these things mean, how they connect & relate, then you more quickly process passive feelings by simply "plugging" them into a mental model of sorts. This is the "value system" spoken of, which in itself is not Feeling but a product of it. This allows for faster processing of what is consistent with existing & finely tuned concepts of what is necessary/significant/good/etc.

    Do not Ti types quickly note when something is illogical or logical? Do you always have to break it down, or do you sometimes just KNOW immediately and then proceed to break it down? I'm going to presume the latter because it's said you have a sort of inner "framework" you compare things to to keep logical consistency.

    Jung says Fi does the same thing, but it "feels" instead of "thinks", aka - it defines & assigns value instead of impersonal classification.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dont agree that active feeling is dom F. I mean dom F types use active feeling more often and naturally than those with inferior F for example, but dom F types are also REALLY heavily influenced by their passive feelings, maybe not as much as F aux types often are, but definitely more than T types usually are. I think that when undeveloped F is used in T types, its most often passive F, not active as active F requires some differentiation, but T types with developed F are capable of doing active F, but it requires more effort and the whole process doesent start so easily.
    I would agree about the T types (or any type) using active F at times, but not to the degree a F-dom does.

    In day to day life, people use passive feeling all the time for non-crucial decisions, such as "What do I feel like eating?". Sometimes they'll use active feeling to consider why or how an option is more beneficial than another, but many don't bother to or only sometimes. When they bother to, it is often because they have linked it to a larger value - something reasoned on already & decided as crucial.

    This is kind of feeling is not a good representation of how Feeling as a mindset in Jungian theory operates. This is the kind of thing that makes people misunderstand what Feeling is, how it works, and how a dominant Feeling type experiences it. That misunderstanding leads to invalidation of Feeling & Feeling types' opinions.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #36
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I think emotions exist without relation to type, and that type determines how you use emotion. Feelers are more likely to include emotion in their decision-making process, in particular because emotion is naturally a part of establishing/identifying things that have value, as valuable things induce positive emotions (consider how you feel upon seeing your significant other). Thinkers are more likely to make a decision sans emotional input, though they may express emotion. Though to differentiate between Fe and Fi, Fe tends to use emotion more in communication, whereas Fi tends to use emotion more as a decision-making function.

    As for F and T - I see them as necessary to one another, just as N and S rely on one another. Te pragmatism accompanies a Fi framework and Fe pragmatism accompanies a Ti framework.

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