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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    @OrangeAppled, since you said an F dom would not hold conflicting values but a P dom would, how does Fi manifest in ENFP's if Feeling is harmonizing values?
    It's rather simple.... the further from the dominant, the less differentiated ("developed") a function is, so Feeling (and Thinking also!) would become less reasoned in the aux, mainly serving the P irrational ego. (I think the bias against Feeling being rational is rooted in misogyny - as more F-dom are women than men & more T-dom men than women), but that's a tangent.) This is why people who are not F-dom find feeling to be emotional, much as intuitives find sensing to be childishly simple & sensing types find intution to be paranoia or delusions. They don't see it as "thinking" because thinking is defined by their preferred style.

    I have heard ENFPs say that they know how they feel clearly (they know their values), but they admit it's less "organized" than with INFPs. It's more tangled up - less reasoned out. You could probably say their emotion is more tied to their feeling, but I'd also guess it's that their perception is running the show & feelings tend to be formed from what they perceived with less need to ruthlessly harmonize it all for consistency like a Fi-dom would. P-dom tend to "see" conclusions as opposed to reasoning them out, which is why they are called "irrational" by Jung. Anyhow, because of this, ENFPs may miss inconsistencies & may hold contradicting values without realizing it. Ji-dom are just more thorough, IMO. Je-dom tend to be thorough with an eye to how it holds up in practice (more viable than Ji). So Fe -dom seek a kind of consistency with values, actions & results more than the kind of theoretical, value-concepts a Fi-dom forms.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #22
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    that's an interesting take...may even be more true than not

    but i have had the experience of wondering how my infp bfs values seemed so flexible...and he said that he often uses ne to see things differently or whatever..

    i feel like once i've made up my mind about something it rarely changes beyond possibly understanding how something could feel right to someone else based on who they are.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i don't know what she meant by that but it wouldn't. it may appear that way if we're just ne'ing out ideas because we can switch back and forth proving opposing ideas in a ne way that has nothing to with us. i don't think infps always understand that because they start from their feeling core and explore it through ne...we're the opposite...so we can stay in ne land for conversations sake...and not check with fi unless that's the direction we want to speak from...

    if that makes sense...and it may be different for others...idk
    Yes it does make sense.... I don't mean to be insulting to ENFPs, but I just meant to explain that with perception in the lead, the harmonizing judging does is less a focus.

    Ji is seeking a kind of perfection which does not really exist. The level of consistency an INFP may seek is not always - even frequently not - realistic. That's partly why we're so idealistic. The ENFP is not necessarily deluded to hold values which don't harmonize perfectly - there may be an awareness of the broader context that shows how in reality such things are true without problem, because reality is not so neat & tidy. Or it may not harmonize just yet, but that's because we do not know everything. There's a comfort with the unknown & suspension of evaluation.

    This is the kind of awareness that lets INFPs "let go" a bit as they develop Ne. The random absurdity of Ne is reflective of reality in many ways, and it can definitely be aware that truths can at least appear to conflict.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 07-28-2013 at 08:11 PM. Reason: typo
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yes it does make sense.... I don't mean to be insulting to ENFPs, but I just meant to explain that with perception in the leas, the harmonizing judging does is less a focus.

    Ji is seeking a kind of perfection which does not really exist. The level of consistency an INFP may seek is not always - even frequently not - realistic. That's partly why we're so idealistic. The ENFP is not necessarily deluded to hold values which don't harmonize perfectly - there may be an awareness of the broader context that shows how in reality such things are true without problem, because reality is not so neat & tidy. Or it may not harmonize just yet, but that's because we do not know everything. There's a comfort with the unknown & suspension of evaluation.

    This is the kind of awareness that lets INFPs "let go" a bit as they develop Ne. The random absurdity of Ne is reflective of reality in many ways, and it can definitely be aware that truths can at least appear to conflict.
    yeah for sure i agree with that.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, Feeling is not emotion, but the function does pay more attention to them, in addition to everything else it means to be human.

    Here are the definitions I've recently developed:

    Feeling (F): the judgment (decision-making) function that covers personal or interpersonal elements of life. According to Jung, it tells us “what [something] is worth”. This is possible from our state as emotional creatures affected by objects and events, which is the focus of the function.

    A person’s “Feeling” function is their perspective of the human side of things, and their attention to and evaluation of things by emotions and values, and identification with other living beings.

    A Feeling type is one whose primary rational outlook is looking at the world in terms of people or humanity, and the elements that makes them “subjects”, such as emotions and values; usually with a focus on goals such as individual or group harmony. They approach life in terms of being human first, and seeing others as humans to interact with, and objects are to be looked at and used from that perspective.

    In contrast:

    Thinking (T)
    : the judgment (decision making) function that covers technical or “impersonal” elements of objects, such as “if-then” evaluations, regardless of affect on people. According to Jung, it is the function that gives it a name [i.e logically categorizes "what is"]. This is the function that captures our [personal] detachment from things evaluated.

    A person’s “Thinking” function is their perspective of the technical side of things, and their attention to and evaluation of things by impersonal logic. It’s where we detach from things as simply other objects.

    A Thinking type is one whose primary rational outlook is looking at the world in terms of objects and how they work (including people), often with a focus on goals such as efficiency.


    Also, just came up with the term panpersonal, as the hypothetical opposite of “impersonal”, to represent the products of the Feeling function, since “personal” is ambiguous (also refers to an introverted perspective).
    I before tried to use the term "humane", but that seemed to carry a particular positive connotation to people.

    “im-” means “not”, and its opposite is generally no prefix at all. So the closest thing to an opposite of that prefix would be the root “essen-”, meaning “to be”. Or, “pan-” meaning “all”, which is less an established (and less awkward) prefix.
    It would serve as a collective for “personal/impersonal”, which I also use (with “personal” generally as introverted Feeling, and “interpersonal” as extraverted Feeling), but as two words is more clunky.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  6. #26
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    So Ji makes a blueprint of the reality they want to create, and Je creates reality from the collective blueprint.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    I think the Feeling functions act like a filter for emotions. Both Fe and Fi "catch" emotions. Fe allows some part of them to pass through and be utilized/expressed. Fi allows part of them to pass through for analyzation, and then part of that to be expressed. This is why Fe users are more demonstrative. Those who have Fe or Fi as their dom/aux function will factor emotions into their decision making more because more of the emotion pass through since their "filter" is more efficient.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

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  8. #28
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I like the two dimensional model on emotions
    , where you have dimensions of good/bad and activation/deactivation. When it comes to F judgment, the judgment of positive/negative dimension is directly related, as F judges whether something is good or bad and emotion needs this strong F judgment to be produced. I think the activating/deactivating system is separate from F, but has the same roots than F judgment does; personal complexes. And after the separated processing of activation/deactivation and positive/negative they come to brain regions near where the consciousness is formed and combined into one emotion which the person is conscious of.

    Oh and i think this is pretty much related:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychological types
    Affect

    By the term affect we understand a state of feeling characterized by a perceptible bodily innervation on the one hand and a peculiar disturbance of the ideational process on the other [5]. I use emotion as synonymous with affect I distinguish—in contrast to Bleuler (v. Affectivity)—feeling from affect, in spite of the fact that no definite demarcation exists, since every feeling, after attaining a certain strength, releases physical innervations, thus becoming an affect. On practical grounds, however, it is advisable to discriminate affect from feeling, since feeling can be a disposable function, whereas affect is usually not so. Similarly, affect is clearly distinguished from feeling by quite perceptible physical innervations, while feeling for the most part lacks them, or their intensity is so slight that they can only be demonstrated by the finest instruments, as for example the psycho-galvanic phenomenon [6]. Affect becomes cumulative through the sensation of the physical innervations released by it. This perception gave rise to the James-Lang theory of affect, which would make bodily innervations wholly responsible for affects. As opposed to this extreme view, I regard affect as a psychic feeling-state on the one hand, and as a physiological innervation-state on the other; each of which has a cumulative, reciprocal effect upon the other, i.e. a component of sensation is joined to the reinforced feeling, through which the affect is approximated more to sensation (v. Sensation), and differentiated essentially from the state of feeling. Pronounced affects, i.e. affects accompanied by violent physical innervation, I do not assign to the province of feeling but to the realm of the sensation function (v. Function).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ You could highlight other parts also...context is important, including that outside of this block of text.

    Affect

    By the term affect we understand a state of feeling characterized by a perceptible bodily innervation on the one hand and a peculiar disturbance of the ideational process on the other [5]. I use emotion as synonymous with affect I distinguish—in contrast to Bleuler (v. Affectivity)—feeling from affect, in spite of the fact that no definite demarcation exists, since every feeling, after attaining a certain strength, releases physical innervations, thus becoming an affect. On practical grounds, however, it is advisable to discriminate affect from feeling, since feeling can be a disposable function, whereas affect is usually not so. Similarly, affect is clearly distinguished from feeling by quite perceptible physical innervations, while feeling for the most part lacks them, or their intensity is so slight that they can only be demonstrated by the finest instruments, as for example the psycho-galvanic phenomenon [6]. Affect becomes cumulative through the sensation of the physical innervations released by it. This perception gave rise to the James-Lang theory of affect, which would make bodily innervations wholly responsible for affects. As opposed to this extreme view, I regard affect as a psychic feeling-state on the one hand, and as a physiological innervation-state on the other; each of which has a cumulative, reciprocal effect upon the other, i.e. a component of sensation is joined to the reinforced feeling, through which the affect is approximated more to sensation (v. Sensation), and differentiated essentially from the state of feeling. Pronounced affects, i.e. affects accompanied by violent physical innervation, I do not assign to the province of feeling but to the realm of the sensation function (v. Function).
    Notice he says feeling incurs emotional affect after attaining a certain strength. The emotion is then a signal used to communicate weight to others or a signal to the self of a value being met/violated. That does not make the emotional response & feeling judging process the same, as the formation of the feeling judgments is the judging process, whereas the value that may stir an emotional affect is a product of it. A feeling-value cannot attain a strength before it is formed, only after.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Emotions may be relevant data considered in evaluating. But the evaluating is its own process separate from the emotional affect. Emotion is not the only data nor always deemed relevant at all. It can be dismissed.
    The two are not inseparable.

    Jung says both thinking and feeling are logical but I believe he is speaking of consistency in their reasoning. The more narrow kind of logic that is dry, technical, impersonal - that is associated with thinking which also generally doesn't consider emotion relevant. This because they are organizing with a different focus. Thinking is classifying what things are, unrelated to being human, and feeling is determining worth in relation to being human.
    Actually not all feeling judgments are rational(i assume you meant this word instead of logical), as there are two types of feeling, passive(which is irrational) and active(which is rational). When you get a feeling about the worth of something without really contemplating on it, its an unconscious feeling judgment which comes through intuition and is irrational because it lacks the conscious evaluation and thus is passive. Only when the feeling judgment comes from active conscious evaluation, it is rational because, well thats the definition of rational

    Quote Originally Posted by psychological types; feeling
    The nature of a feeling-valuation may be compared with intellectual apperception as an apperception of value. An active and a passive feeling-apperception can be distinguished. The passive feeling-act is characterized by the fact that a content excites or attracts the feeling; it compels a feeling-participation on the part of the subject The active feeling-act, on the contrary, confers value from the subject—it is a deliberate evaluation of contents in accordance with feeling and not in accordance with intellectual intention. Hence active feeling is a directed function, an act of will, as for instance loving as opposed to being in love. This latter state would be undirected, passive feeling, as, indeed, the ordinary colloquial term suggests, since it describes the former as activity and the latter as a condition. Undirected feeling is feeling-intuition. Thus, in the stricter sense, only the active, directed feeling should be termed rational: the passive is definitely irrational, since it establishes values without voluntary participation, occasionally even against the subject's intention.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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