The nasty side of unhealthy MBTI types.

[greenfairy]

Yes, that would be a failed attempt to insult. It works the same way with compliments. I have had people try to insult me by saying things that I receive simply as objective truths, and try to compliment me by describing me in ways that I find distinctly unflattering. I do not hold them responsible for whatever emotional effect I feel, but it does tell me something about their values and tastes, as well as how well they know me.

I don't try to insult people as a rule, but I can neither know nor be responsible for how someone (mis)interprets my statements. I might, for instance, try to compliment someone on their shoes by pointing out how sturdy and comfortable they look, qualities I value. If the person intended the shoes as a fashion statement, they might interpret my "compliment" to mean the shoes are unattractive, with only practical value, and feel insulted rather than complimented. This difference in interpretation is based entirely on the other person's values and mindset. In making comments, especially criticisms, then, I follow two rules of thumb: is it accurate, and is it useful.

This is Te versus Fe, I suppose, or simply T versus F. I disagree. I don't usually insult people either, but I don't believe failed insults or compliments exist; insults and compliments can either be acknowledged or ignored. If I took something as insulting which the other person did not intend as such, it would be a mistake on my part of misidentifying the statement. However, if the person was really clumsy about it, I would still have reason to ask them to take more care in the delivery next time. Would you not agree that this is a reasonable thing to ask?

 

[greenfairy]

Either way, I think it is never all one person's fault. People are responsible for their own feelings, but in so far as you want to have good relations with someone, you are partly responsible for how your comments are received. That's just how social interaction works. Ideally you could primarily interact with people who have a natural disposition to receive your communication style positively; that's what I try to do. I dislike accidentally offending people and then being made to feel bad about it. But when you have to interact with sensitive people, their disposition should be taken into account. And people can take offense at things for all kinds of reasons, even if it is not in their disposition to do so often.

 

[Coriolis]

This is Te versus Fe, I suppose, or simply T versus F. I disagree. I don't usually insult people either, but I don't believe failed insults or compliments exist; insults and compliments can either be acknowledged or ignored. If I took something as insulting which the other person did not intend as such, it would be a mistake on my part of misidentifying the statement. However, if the person was really clumsy about it, I would still have reason to ask them to take more care in the delivery next time. Would you not agree that this is a reasonable thing to ask?

Anyone clumsy about something should try to take more care the next time. I would ask you instead, next time you receive what might be a compliment or an insult, to examine it for accuracy first. If inaccurate, the content can be dismissed, but you might wonder why the statement was made. Is it an honest mistake, or an attempt at flattery, or a by-product of someone just in a bad mood? If accurate, ask whether it is important or useful. The answers have nothing to do with the character of the statement as compliment, insult, or neutral, but more with how if at all you plan to respond. If, for instance, someone tells you your hair is messy, you might think it isn't, and write off their comment as a reflection of their taste. Or you might agree that it's messy, but you don't care right now. Or you might not have realized it, and decide to do something about it. See - insult or compliment doesn't even enter into it once you view the comment objectively.

 

[greenfairy]

Anyone clumsy about something should try to take more care the next time. I would ask you instead, next time you receive what might be a compliment or an insult, to examine it for accuracy first. If inaccurate, the content can be dismissed, but you might wonder why the statement was made. Is it an honest mistake, or an attempt at flattery, or a by-product of someone just in a bad mood? If accurate, ask whether it is important or useful. The answers have nothing to do with the character of the statement as compliment, insult, or neutral, but more with how if at all you plan to respond. If, for instance, someone tells you your hair is messy, you might think it isn't, and write off their comment as a reflection of their taste. Or you might agree that it's messy, but you don't care right now. Or you might not have realized it, and decide to do something about it. See - insult or compliment doesn't even enter into it once you view the comment objectively.

I personally try to do this, but you are assuming the person does not have the intention to be insulting. This would be characterized as expressing a generally negative valuation of the person. I think it is important whether or not people regard me positively or negatively, and I am not alone in this. Probably Te dom/aux doesn't really think this way; they tend to view people neutrally or judge whether they have a good relationship with that person, or just whether there is compatibility. I don't know; but I prefer to interact and cultivate relationships with people who regard me positively, and if there is no way to know, I become uncomfortable. I don't really understand how you can know whether someone is treating you well if you can't discern how they intend to affect your feelings. Maybe it's less important to treat people well and be treated well online, but there are forum rules attempting to establish such an atmosphere for a reason.

Also, examine you motivations for expressing criticism. Sometimes it is unnecessary and unhelpful, as well as being unwanted. In such situations it is better to leave it unsaid.

 

[EJCC]

This is Te versus Fe, I suppose, or simply T versus F. I disagree. I don't usually insult people either, but I don't believe failed insults or compliments exist; insults and compliments can either be acknowledged or ignored. If I took something as insulting which the other person did not intend as such, it would be a mistake on my part of misidentifying the statement. However, if the person was really clumsy about it, I would still have reason to ask them to take more care in the delivery next time. Would you not agree that this is a reasonable thing to ask?

Isn't there a bit of victim-blaming inherent in here? For example, someone could horribly offend someone else with a tactless "compliment", and then blame them for being too sensitive and not knowing a compliment when they see one. And, by your rule, they'd be in the right.

I don't see this as function-based, so much as a different philosophy on the subject; compliments and insults being a one-way, vs. a two-way, street. Either way, it doesn't allow for much adaptation to other people's communication styles.

Anyone clumsy about something should try to take more care the next time.

^ This!

 

[greenfairy]

Isn't there a bit of victim-blaming inherent in here? For example, someone could horribly offend someone else with a tactless "compliment", and then blame them for being too sensitive and not knowing a compliment when they see one. And, by your rule, they'd be in the right.

I don't see this as function-based, so much as a different philosophy on the subject; compliments and insults being a one-way, vs. a two-way, street. Either way, it doesn't allow for much adaptation to other people's communication styles.

No, I am sensing potential victim-blaming in Coriolis' philosophy; I don't believe this, which is why I said this:

Either way, I think it is never all one person's fault. People are responsible for their own feelings, but in so far as you want to have good relations with someone, you are partly responsible for how your comments are received. That's just how social interaction works. Ideally you could primarily interact with people who have a natural disposition to receive your communication style positively; that's what I try to do. I dislike accidentally offending people and then being made to feel bad about it. But when you have to interact with sensitive people, their disposition should be taken into account. And people can take offense at things for all kinds of reasons, even if it is not in their disposition to do so often.

Despite someone misidentifying something as an insult, it is not a blameworthy thing- just a mistake, which could be avoided in the future with more experience and a better attitude. Similarly, the other person would be equally responsible (though not necessarily blameworthy) for the outcome and with more experience could avoid the mistake in the future by taking the other person's temperament into account and taking care in how a comment is delivered.


Have you read our entire discussion? I jumped in to say what my opinion of the definition of an insult is; Coriolis disagreed by suggesting that it is entirely in the mind of the listener, and I implied that it was all in the intention of the speaker; moderated by the fact that the speaker has the responsibility to make those intentions clear (thus avoiding victim blaming), and the listener has a responsibility to try her best to accurately interpret those intentions.

 

[Coriolis]

I personally try to do this, but you are assuming the person does not have the intention to be insulting. This would be characterized as expressing a generally negative valuation of the person. I think it is important whether or not people regard me positively or negatively, and I am not alone in this. Probably Te dom/aux doesn't really think this way; they tend to view people neutrally or judge whether they have a good relationship with that person, or just whether there is compatibility. I don't know; but I prefer to interact and cultivate relationships with people who regard me positively, and if there is no way to know, I become uncomfortable. I don't really understand how you can know whether someone is treating you well if you can't discern how they intend to affect your feelings. Maybe it's less important to treat people well and be treated well online, but there are forum rules attempting to establish such an atmosphere for a reason.

Also, examine you motivations for expressing criticism. Sometimes it is unnecessary and unhelpful, as well as being unwanted. In such situations it is better to leave it unsaid.

This is why my second rule of thumb involves utility: is it necessary or helpful to make the comment? I suppose Te does cause one to view all this more objectively. Yes, I prefer that people regard me positively, but that should be a by-product of my being courteous, helpful, responsible, etc. Similarly, if someone views me negatively, I would like to know why. If I have inconvenienced them in some way, or do something they find annoying, I should correct this if possible. If it is just a matter of different values, or their being sore at me for something like getting a promotion they wanted, I see no realistic way to change this. I do not require the admiration of everyone I meet.

Actually my analysis does not depend on the speaker not intending insult. Consider the following "insults":

1. "you're an obnoxious bitch"

2. "you don't have any constructive suggestions to the problems around here - you just want to whine"

3. "you've got to have the ugliest wardrobe I have ever seen"

4. "you're a cold analytical person, you're too introspective, and you have to analyze every fucking situation like it were some science problem"

Rather than get upset over any of these, I examine them for accuracy and utility. I dismiss (1) as containing no real content, and write it off as emotional venting of the other person. If they want to affect my actions, they need to provide substantive criticism. I would dismiss (2) for inaccuracy, since I am well known for getting my constructive solutions implemented, and never whining. Perhaps the speaker is unaware of my track record, or even jealous of it. (3) is a matter of taste. Yes, I might be able to see how the speaker considers what I wear unattractive, but I don't really care. I'm a physicist, not a fashion model, and it works for me. On the other hand I would see (4) as containing some truth, truth I would do well to consider. Perhaps I should analyze less and listen more, at least with this person.

Isn't there a bit of victim-blaming inherent in here? For example, someone could horribly offend someone else with a tactless "compliment", and then blame them for being too sensitive and not knowing a compliment when they see one. And, by your rule, they'd be in the right.

My comment that insults are in the eye of the beholder means that the receiver can control the emotional impact of the statement. I recognize the examples I listed above as attempts by someone to be insulting, but I refuse to "feel" insulted by them. This is easy to do when one focuses on the objective content (or lack thereof). In this sense I do place responsibility for insults on the receiver. Either the content of the "insult" is accurate and useful, or it is not. So, why then is it bad to try to insult people? It is an ineffective way to address problems, including people you may dislike or not get along with. It relies on inaccuracy, hyperbole, and ugly language, and attempts to manipulate the other person. I see it as a reflection entirely on the speaker, and refuse to be manipulated by it.

 

[Mole]

What is the difference between an insult and an unflattering observation, or a criticism?

I think it is pretty straight-forward.

The insult usually takes the form of, "You are .......".

 

[Coriolis]

I think it is pretty straight-forward.

The insult usually takes the form of, "You are .......".

"You are the light of my life."
"You are wise beyond your years."
"You are the best boss I ever had."

 

[Ginkgo]

"You are the light of my life."
"You are wise beyond your years."
"You are the best boss I ever had."

Why are you being needlessly contrary?

 

[Coriolis]

Why are you being needlessly contrary?

Why is Mole being needlessly inaccurate?

 

[Mole]

"You are the light of my life."
"You are wise beyond your years."
"You are the best boss I ever had."

Dear Coriolis, you are responding to me the same way every time. So this must mean something for you.

I, though, am finding it irritating.

Small children are usually pleased to discover that when they ask a question, they will get an answer. So they are inclined to ask questions for the sake of asking questions.

So I am starting to feel put upon by your questions.

 

[Ginkgo]

Why is Mole being needlessly inaccurate?

Good question. I've pondered this myself on a number of occasions. However just because complements follow a certain format doesn't mean that insults don't follow a remotely similar one. I'm starting to wonder - if you're as logical as your other posts would imply and you're making such a mistake - if you're just pushing Victor's buttons in order for him to see a new perspective, regardless of whether he makes a point or not.

 

[Coriolis]

Dear Coriolis, you are responding to me the same way every time. So this must mean something for you.

I, though, am finding it irritating.

Small children are usually pleased to discover that when they ask a question, they will get an answer. So they are inclined to ask questions for the sake of asking questions.

So I am starting to feel put upon by your questions.

When what you say appears unclear or contradictory, would you prefer to be questioned and have the chance to explain; or to be ignored and assumed ignorant/illogical/etc? If you are getting the same kind of response from me, it might be because you are making the same kind of comment.

Good question. I've pondered this myself on a number of occasions. However just because complements follow a certain format doesn't mean that insults don't follow a remotely similar one. I'm starting to wonder - if you're as logical as your other posts would imply and you're making such a mistake - if you're just pushing Victor's buttons in order for him to see a new perspective, regardless of whether he makes a point or not.

No mistake. My list was meant to illustrate exactly your point: that compliments, insults, and neutral statements often follow the same format. One cannot, therefore, define something as an insult by the fact that it begins with "You are . . . ".

On the other hand, Mole seems to enjoy helping the rest of us see new perspectives. Would it be amiss for us to return the favor now and then?

 

[Mole]

When what you say appears unclear or contradictory, would you prefer to be questioned and have the chance to explain; or to be ignored and assumed ignorant/illogical/etc? If you are getting the same kind of response from me, it might be because you are making the same kind of comment.

You are plainly intelligent and persistent but I don't want to play this game with you anymore, so I am putting you on Ignore for a while.

 

[Ginkgo]

No mistake. My list was meant to illustrate exactly your point: that compliments, insults, and neutral statements often follow the same format. One cannot, therefore, define something as an insult by the fact that it begins with "You are . . . ".

On the other hand, Mole seems to enjoy helping the rest of us see new perspectives. Would it be amiss for us to return the favor now and then?

I think you could have used some more accurate examples that fall outside of the "rule" Mole defined, though yours were tactful. Obviously, forwardly saying "dickhead" is an insult, and the line starts to blur when one makes passive aggressive comments in which direct insults can only be inferred from self-knowledge that the aggressor is aware of as well.

------------------------------

Anyway, as far as Health levels are concerned - I think it's possible to make a scientific estimation of health but since this thread is rife with conflicting opinions about who's healthy and who's not, it's easy to believe that some of the posters like to make equivocations about people they simply dislike.

I would measure health by the level of self-awareness and lucidity one possesses - in this way one can determine where personal capabilities end and where limitations begin. This defines the basis of how fluidly one can function and adapt over a span of time, and, by extension, how well one can make cost-benefit analyses in terms of what preserves their highest goal.

Basically, the more one tends to act out of a deadened sense of necessity, the less healthy they are. This can range from manic, impulsive behavior to mindless, zombie like depression.

 

[Vilku]

That's exactly what you did, which is no different than what you claim of "unhealthy" INFPs.



The problem is your friend, not INFPs.






Whining about INFPs =/= analysis.

"Use a dictionary."

i did, and all that came up was nonsencial.

"That comment is useless."

so is your blabbering.

I come here to present new ideas and listen to criticism.

However I am resolutely opposed to personal insults towards me or any member because personal insults are against the rules and may lead to banning.

the only thing making them personal is your _misintepretation_ =|
now stop being a hypocrite, rules dont justify your misunderstanding.

i used to blame others for being stupid and boring. but ive realized, that was my mistake, i failed to judge that they were boring just because i decided they were. i think youre simply deciding that others are up against you when they arent. meaning, youre focusing too much on judging others when the solution would be to see the flaw in yourself.

here's a question: unhealthy to who - themselves or to others? and no, those don't always contradict, but they aren't always one of the same either - many types seem to exhibit behaviors that are potentially destructive to others around them but they themselves are in peace with and find value in.

like serial rapers? =|

you do realize the irrationality of that premesis?

if youre unhealthy, your bad influence to _everyone_. including yourself.

This is the main usage of typology. To give names to people's prejudices.

[MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]

i dont think so. there are people who can see through their prejudices, and analyze others neutrally without affiliations to any direction.

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]

"does not care whether the receiver takes it as an insult"

you cant seriously expect me to understand someone whose type i dont know. and i dont think people have the right to misinterprete what i say by their own will, forming it into something which it _isnt_.

ill tell you from experience: ive been physically attacked, because i smiled. i didnt even smile to this person, he just went all nuts and created paranoid theories about it. how on earth am i supposed to know how a _stranger_ thinks? its impossible.

Isn't there a bit of victim-blaming inherent in here? For example, someone could horribly offend someone else with a tactless "compliment", and then blame them for being too sensitive and not knowing a compliment when they see one. And, by your rule, they'd be in the right.

I don't see this as function-based, so much as a different philosophy on the subject; compliments and insults being a one-way, vs. a two-way, street. Either way, it doesn't allow for much adaptation to other people's communication styles.


^ This!

i think its an Fe - Fi difference. fe fellas judge comments by intent, Fi fellas judge by their own feelings, not caring of the intent.

ive been complimented as for being a "normal person" and "a typical male", which is as offending as you can get with me, but due me being Fe, im able to value those compliments for their intent, not their effect.

i think this communication barrier between opposing judgin directions shouldnt be ignored, it should be understood and acted upon accordingly.

i think the solution is for Te's to use their Te to personally understand what the Ti thinks of them rather than misinterpreting, and for Fe to use Fe to personally understand how the Fi feels about the world. or idk what im blabbering, my head isnt computing properly right now..

[MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION]

i think unhealthiness is the over use of your primary function, being all lost in over doing it. healthiness is the balance of functions, when you start diverting your attention more equally on all functions. (and thus using them in a constructive, non-destructive way)

for example, introverted types get lost in their own heads when unhealthy. the external world becomes hostile. for extroverts i suppose we could assume the opposite.

thus im very certain [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] is an introvert due being lost in his/her head, and my best theory is, he shes an isfp. ive came across similar cases before. (isfp's get all paranoid of others motivations when unhealthy.) and mole, i know there are crap people, but you need to realize, not everyone is that way. for example, if you want to know my honest motivation in this discussion: intellectual curiosity. or thats at least what i tell myself.. i guess i just want to understand everyone so i could know how to have fun time with them. and perhaps help them.

 

[Society]

if youre unhealthy, your bad influence to _everyone_. including yourself.

huh. circular logic aside, i was actually thinking of the old INFJ doorslam threads, lock out information, filter information first (which can include the experiences of others), etc' - which while most who experienced it from the outside (myself included) saw is as very destructive behavior, many of the INFJs themselves identified it as a circumstantial need.

i can also extend this to your ENTP "unhealthy states" - a.k.a. playing with others - this is actually very common for immature ENTPs with yet-to-develop Fe, but it's part of the process of how tert Fe develops in ENTPs to begin with - exploring and verifying the spectrum of sociological reactions is a common element of how ENTPs learn to engage it on the empathic level, that's where the oversized-seed of truth stems in relations to the negative stereotype. to the counter point, going into an NeFe without learning to engage Fe in unison with Ti, while seemingly quite considerate towards others to the extreme if gauged in Fe standards alone, is actually very unhealthy for an ENTP - it's a mental state of a never ending walk through the eggshell fields without seen any path in between.

the same can probably be said about INTJs learning to utilize & interact with others under an Fi-emergent code of ethics - i've observed that many INTJs actually learn to respect others as entities equal to themselves worthy of Fi projection through developing the ability to gauge other's utility value.

 

[Vilku]

huh. circular logic aside, i was actually thinking of the old INFJ doorslam threads, lock out information, filter information first , etc' - which while most who experienced it from the outside (myself included) saw is as very destructive behavior, many of the INFJs themselves identified it as a circumstantial need.

i can also extend this to your ENTP "unhealthy states" - a.k.a. playing with others - this is actually very common for immature ENTPs with yet-to-develop Fe, but it's part of the process of how tert Fe develops in ENTPs to begin with - exploring and verifying the spectrum of sociological reactions is a common element of how ENTPs learn to engage it on the empathic level, that's where the oversized-seed of truth stems in relations to the negative stereotype. to the counter point, going into an NeFe without learning to engage Fe in unison with Ti, while seemingly quite considerate towards others to the extreme if gauged in Fe standards alone, is actually very unhealthy for an ENTP - it's a mental state of a never ending walk through the eggshell fields without seen any path in between.

the same can probably be said about INTJs learning to utilize & interact with others under an Fi-emergent code of ethics - i've observed that many INTJs actually learn to respect others as entities equal to themselves worthy of Fi projection through developing the ability to gauge other's utility value.

i dont understand the infj doorslam thing at all. ive never done such. sure i might get less interested in actively engaging with people if the distance is too great, but thats nothing personal.

although, my mother caused me a permanent injury which has made my life a living hell since and mentally ill, so i pretty much avoid her cause shes dangerous. people in my family tree are like that, so i avoid them all pretty much.

i guess im sometimes afraid of speaking my honest thoughts cause they aint perfect. and then i cant get connection to others. or i might blabber endlessly about thoughts that are too theoretical.

"(which can include the experiences of others)"

do you mean not telling others what you think of them? in that case, its not to be told because what i think of them isnt final, its flawed, it requires me to think more of the other person to gain an acurate picture of them so i know how to interact with them. if i went telling others how i dislike them based on my flawed thoughts, it would be as useful as it is to me when an esfp tells me to shut up and not think that way. which only makes me baffled, and doesnt help me identify the problem.

 

[Society]

i dont understand the infj doorslam thing at all.

...i'm not sure how to expand on that & navigate the conversation from here without derailing the thread beyond any point of restoration, tbh.