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  1. #81
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I'd like to see some kinda statistical data to back up your rape conclusions one way or the other. As it stands, this statement is almost comical. A spectacular leap in very basic reasoning.




    Do you suppose it's possible you're imposing your own sense of subjective relevance onto people who may simply have different values compared to your own?
    UMM..

    let me just make it clear: i analyze them as a person, i analyze their potential, i analyze _them_, not my own stuff. if i can see that person A is stuck repeating activity C, because hes not using function D, then i tell them what they are doing wrong and how they could do better.

    or if they just otherwise have beliefs that i know to be impartial, then i explain the more likely explanation that explains their impartial understanding of something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I've survived sexual assault, in the past, among other things, incidentally (I can't/won't speak for anyone else who has experienced that). No it shouldn't have happened. However, I was talking about perspectives in of themselves, not the actions. The two are separate, but can run in tandem, of course. I am aware some people are simply fucked up- their distorted thinking/emotional reactions/impulses are beyond their sense of control, perhaps, & absolutely beyond mine. Acting on those thoughts/feelings, however, is a choice- & I do hold them responsible for their actions. They're free to think & feel as they like, for I am not qualified to repair damaged people, nor am I qualified to police the psyche of fellow humans.

    The default freedom of perception I pointed out- and the personal responsibility for wrongdoings you're now focusing on, are two separate concepts. People don't "have to" care about others. Many don't, and I accept that as a reality. However, not all of them will act in callous ways because they are aware of consequences for their actions (not to mention, not all less-empathetic people are malicious by nature). I wasn't attempting to defend evil actions by any means. I only pointed out that people can and will interpret the world however they've personally evolved to, so it's useful to keep that in mind when interacting with others, vs universally expecting or demanding they see reality as you may (which I mean yeah, harmony is certainly ideal, but it's not what is- & what is tends to be what we all have to learn to work around/prepare for, however we can). It was a neutral statement about a concrete fact.

    Is it that hard for you to hold two conflicting ideas in your mind at once?
    (this is meant to be an actual query, by the way, not a rhetorical remark)
    perhaps, but you would be surpriced how much we infj's can help in correcting these faulty judgments, if we just develop our two weaker functions.(by having solid experience based structure for understandign people)

    at the second bold: yeah, i need a solid understanding of world, how everything is related to everything.

    every unhealthy person causes harm to everyone, if you dont understand their unhealthiness, then your caught offguard and they pull you into it. thus its simply a requirement that you know of every flaw in every one. otherwise you cant dodge them.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I appreciate the need to discuss this topic. Hurting others is often a misunderstood experience on one or both sides. I just hate to read these posts with their contentious undertones. People hurt people. Nobody likes it. Can we try to discuss things, especially this subject, with compassion and understanding rather that with one-ups and put downs?

    I was trying to avoid speaking up in this thread, but every time I see new activity here, I feel more and more strongly about it.

    Peace, Love, and Personalities baby
    yeah, i think its generally very hard to understand people without seeing their faces.. =|

    @Mane

    btw, i investigate the infj doorslam thing, and my theory is, that both inj's have their own version of this. for infj's, when we realize things aint working, there must be faults in our understanding, so we cut contact until we have it figured out. intj's do the fi version of this. if you hurt intj's feelings, they withdraw until they have resolved their feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I think your theory is garbage.
    really?

    look at unhealthy introverts, like fi doms get all absorbed in their feelings. isfp's getting all super paranoid of other peoples motivations, and infp's suchking the feelings out of other people, instead of using Te to chat about useful things.

    istj's get all over sensualistic, thinking the only point of existence is to experience sensuality, so much, that they start manipulating others to get sensual experiences with them, without their consensus.

    Ni doms get so absorbid in intuition, that we lose connection to the reality and think our view on it is the real reality.

    can you think for yourself, or does my theory still seem crap, even with the backing of empirical evidence?
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    @Mane

    btw, i investigate the infj doorslam thing, and my theory is, that both inj's have their own version of this. for infj's, when we realize things aint working, there must be faults in our understanding, so we cut contact until we have it figured out.
    unlikely explanation - if it was true you would see a pattern of INFJs figuring it out (since by your theory it's only until then) & some expression of viewing one's understanding at fault (rather than expressing a view where one's understanding is unquestionable), neither of which is consistent with any of the cases i had the displeasure of looking into.

    in regard to your conversation with @Lexicon - you might be surprised at how versatile Fe emergent values can be depending on culture, environment & experiences. no, jung's poor use of subject/object continues generating this confusion, but Fe is far from being an objective set of morality, neither is it a psychic view into anyone's soul. both Fi & Fe form different strategies at gauging the information utilized by mirror neurons - nature's way of forming a hypothesis in regards to the inside mental working of another person - and both are exceptionally prawn to faulty reasoning - while Fi can easily misinterpret motives from assumptions of similar stance or having yet to experience the relevant variables themselves, Fe is a lot more dependent upon direct feedback, and by manipulating what feedback one gets exposed too or is willing to consider, it becomes much more vulnerable to artificial self-delusions and subconscious-distortions (for instance it's actually being noted that Fe users are a lot more prone to distorted body images). the point is - neither hypothesis formation mechanisms are anywhere near perfect, or even particularly accurate.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    unlikely explanation - if it was true you would see a pattern of INFJs figuring it out (since by your theory it's only until then)

    in regard to your conversation with @Lexicon - you might be surprised at how versatile Fe emergent values can be depending on culture, environment & experiences. no, jung's poor use of subject/object continues generating this confusion, but Fe is far from being an objective set of morality, neither is it a psychic view into anyone's soul. both Fi & Fe form different strategies at gauging the information utilized by mirror neurons - nature's way of forming a hypothesis in regards to the inside mental working of another person - and both are exceptionally prawn to faulty reasoning - while Fi can easily misinterpret motives from assumptions of similar stance or having yet to experience the relevant variables themselves, Fe is a lot more dependent upon direct feedback, and by manipulating what feedback one gets exposed too or is willing to consider, it becomes much more vulnerable to artificial self-delusions and subconscious-distortions. the point is - neither hypothesis formation mechanisms are anywhere near perfect, or even particularly accurate.
    at the bold: uhh.. honestly, i have to admit, my type of people are usually very stupid xD.. sure we have a lot of theories, but we, pretty much 95% of the times forget to do a reality check. (such as analyzing your past experiences to confirm your theories. and the other fault is theorizing about theories instead of theorizing about experiences.)

    my Fe pretty much always demands me to spend time with the other person and be nice, even if im extremely frustrated by their company. but recognizing my own frustration would be a good thing, cause then i could act accordingly, which is to use my Ti instead of the Fe who had failed the task. our Fe also tends to criticize the other person first, instead of using Ti to see faults in our own model of interaction.

    and Fe and Fi arent really that different. they both deal with the same matters, one develops externally and the other internally. and all judgment functions can be developed for more sound judgments.

    "(for instance it's actually being noted that Fe users are a lot more prone to distorted body images)."

    yeah, i often mistake my feelings as my body image. if i feel awful.. ohh, look at the mirror how awful i look in this state! but at least i know my appearance is dependent on my feelings.

    every function alone would come to ill conclusions.

    for example, when i fail to use my Se, i just look at others and think "oh, they are all so boring!", cause i didnt use my Se to see them for who they really are, thus the judgment was made with impartial data.

    anyone who doesnt use all of their functions makes ill judgments.

    "& some expression of viewing one's understanding at fault (rather than expressing a view where one's understanding is unquestionable), neither of which is consistent with any of the cases i had the displeasure of looking into."

    i just dont compute this part, care to word it differently? if you mean, that i should express my view as unquestionable.. then i might accidentally crush others instead of being clear about my level of understanding in my thought process. =S?
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  4. #84
    SingSmileShine
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    Me (unhealthy ENFP 3w2 so/sx)

    1. Very introverted, spends a lot of time alone
    2. Impatient and doesn't want to put up with others
    3. Much more T-oriented and selfish
    4. Slightly more histrionic
    5. Extremely anxious
    6. No energy/tendencies of hypersomnia
    7. Extremely hard on self and aching to prove self (even more so than usual)

  5. #85
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingSmileShine View Post
    Me (unhealthy ENFP 3w2 so/sx)

    1. Very introverted, spends a lot of time alone
    2. Impatient and doesn't want to put up with others
    3. Much more T-oriented and selfish
    4. Slightly more histrionic
    5. Extremely anxious
    6. No energy/tendencies of hypersomnia
    7. Extremely hard on self and aching to prove self (even more so than usual)
    Have you seen a doctor about your depression?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #86
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    i...enfp 4w3 sx so(my little sister):
    she sometimes gets into this mode where shes angry at others for ignoring her, and she desperately wants their attention, this she does by doing whatever she can to hurt them, verbally mostly. also by mean pranks...
    This is so me. Except for the pranks. I can be so casually cruel when I feel neglected. I think it's because I notice people's emotional states and tend to them, and so when i'm so upset and no one seems to notice I feel like they're doing it on purpose or are ungrateful.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  7. #87
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    I lack the proper terminology for a lot of mental disorders so I'll try to use my own words. These have been my personal observations so far.

    ENTP - Narcissistic
    ESFJ - Obsessive Compulsive, Twisted morality (ie: two face, from "The Dark Knight")
    INTP - schitzophrenic Catatonia
    ISFJ - Depressive Catatonia
    ISTP - schitzophrenic paranoia
    ESTP - Sadistic Sociopathy
    ENFJ - Narcissistic Psychopathy
    INFJ - Depressive and Masochism
    ESFP - Vanity Histrionic
    ISFP - Vanity and Masochism
    ENTJ - Narcissistic Sociopathy
    INTJ - Paranoia Narcissism
    ENFP - Vanity Narcissism
    INFP - Depressive Dependant
    ESTJ - Obsessive Compulsive Narcissism
    ISTJ - Sociopathy or Passive Aggressive

  8. #88
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingSmileShine View Post
    Me (unhealthy ENFP 3w2 so/sx)

    1. Very introverted, spends a lot of time alone
    2. Impatient and doesn't want to put up with others
    3. Much more T-oriented and selfish
    4. Slightly more histrionic
    5. Extremely anxious
    6. No energy/tendencies of hypersomnia
    7. Extremely hard on self and aching to prove self (even more so than usual)
    This is me when I'm unhealthy too. Well put. Like Chiharu said, I hope you're getting help. It makes me so sad to see our joy sucked dry like that.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    This is so me. Except for the pranks. I can be so casually cruel when I feel neglected. I think it's because I notice people's emotional states and tend to them, and so when i'm so upset and no one seems to notice I feel like they're doing it on purpose or are ungrateful.
    the prank thing probably is just her being a child, she doesnt understand how endlessly short sighted it is of her to take my tv remote controller and hide it because she was angry, for not getting her wishes fulfilled instantly and served like a goddess.

    and if youve accurately self typed, then youre the fourth 4w3 sx so in my life (including myself). i thought i would never meet two people of the same type, but then, technically i havent met you so i cant really confirm your typing.. lols =]

    when im angry at others, i can be mean to them too (by attacking their flaws), for example, when my little sister ruined my food by putting something i dont remember on it, i then rubbed the food(a piece of cake) to her face. isnt that such a nice revenge? xD.. i then had a three day nonstop migrane because im over moralistic like that.. <.< but mostly if im angry at someone, its because i dont understand why they did what they did. and its more of frustration than anger, really.

    and sometimes im just bored by everyone, so i ignore everyone and just focus on doing whatever i do.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  10. #90
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    @OP, classic temperament traditionally went more into the negative side of personality (giving the positive and negative equal time, basically). You can see these here: http://www.fighunter.com/index.php?page=temperaments

    Basically
    Sanguine: short bursts of anger to gain attention
    Choleric: longer anger and criticalness
    Melancholy: critical in a more sad and dour way
    Phlegmatic: slow and lacking energy
    Supine: open dependence, wants affirmation but cannot express himself to get it, so ends up resentful

    This is one thing that made it tricky to correlate temperament with type in places.

    But it turns out that temperament is represented in type by both Keirsey's "conative" groups, as well as the Interaction Styles.

    So if you look at these type correlations (Based on
    Sanguine: ESF/ENP, SP
    Choleric: EST/ENJ, NT
    Melancholy: IST/INJ, SJ
    Phlegmatic/Supine: ISF/INP, NF

    ISTJ: pure Melancholy
    ISFJ: Phlegmatic-Melancholy
    INFJ: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    INTJ: Melancholy-Choleric
    ISTP: Melancholy-Sanguine
    ISFP: Phlegmatic-Sanguine
    INFP: Phlegmatic and/or Supine
    INTP: Phlegmatic-Choleric
    ESTP: Choleric-Sanguine
    ESFP: pure Sanguine
    ENFP: Sanguine-Phlegmatic
    ENTP: Sanguine-Choleric
    ESTJ: Choleric-Melancholy
    ESFJ: Sanguine-Melancholy
    ENFJ: Choleric-Phlegmatic
    ENTJ: pure Choleric


    Your descriptions seem to pretty much match (like the INFP's "dependency", something you almost never hear about in 16 types profiles, proving it is likely Supine. Also, if the person is 7w6, that will probably be more on the Supine side, than 9 or 4, which might be more Phlegmatic).

    INFJ would fit what's known in FIRO as the "Foot-Stomping Dependent", and from what I've heard, when unhealthy, this would match. (The "dependent" would be the "too optimistic" part where you would become abused. The more critical aspects you mention would lend to the "foot-stomping").

    INTP is torn between two diametric opposites; for me, the Supine which wants to be passive and friendly, and the Choleric, who wants to be aggressive and critical. For those who are Phlegmatic in place of Supine, it will be between the Choleric's energy and the Phlegmatic's lack of energy.
    In either case, these opposite drives cancel each other out, leading to what you describe. It's like sometimes I don't know what else to do.

    ENFJ would the same mix in reverse, but I don't know a lot about them first hand. They would likely be a more aggressive version of the "foot-stomping dependent"; someone who bosses everyone around, ultimately to take care of them.

    ESFJ is also two diametric opposites, the fun loving Sanguine and the serious Melancholy. They will bounce back and forth between frivolity and being overly serious or depressed. A friend of ours calls it (in Spanish) "friocaliente" (Both temperaments are prone to mood swings as it is).
    ISTP will be the same thing in reverse. (hence, the anxiety).

    ISFJ, as Supine Melancholy would be a cross between ISTJ and INFP (the purest forms of those temperaments).
    (The rape thing cannot be too generalized to a type, though the APS manuals do mention that a Melancholy might be more likely to rape if raped themselves, and they "play it over and over again in their minds". For ISFJ, I imagine this might be tempered by the Supine or Phlegmatic in the mix. But the point there is, when unhealthy, they would dwell on the negative (si), and it would keep them really depressed and neurotic).

    Classic temperament (such as Tim LaHaye) will generally use Hitler as the example of the pure Choleric at its extreme worst. So that's why I argue Hitler was ENTJ.
    Of course, most people are not that unhealthy, but average unhealthiness would be simply being very aggressive and critical, and needing to win, and also undertaking any behavior necessary to attain their goals. (Including behavior we would take as "Fe", explaining a lot of that confusion, and I notice they also like to turn the tables and play the "victim" even as they loudly accuse others of stuff like "whining", and then actually claim to be "bullied" by those they are actually bullying when they try to fight back).

    The Choleric gets the worst rap (as you can see on that page), but the positive side is that when that aggressiveness and criticalness are healthy and used for good, they are the ones who can accomplish the most.
    Obviously, Western society is very Choleric, and much of the political debate we are hearing now, is from a Choleric society speaking of themselves as the "makers", and blaming the weak for their own and everyone else's problems, but cannot own the negative side (like them constantly rebuffing charges of racism/colonialism, telling everyone to get over it, and ignoring the negative effects of these things).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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