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  1. #71
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    I appreciate the need to discuss this topic. Hurting others is often a misunderstood experience on one or both sides. I just hate to read these posts with their contentious undertones. People hurt people. Nobody likes it. Can we try to discuss things, especially this subject, with compassion and understanding rather that with one-ups and put downs?

    I was trying to avoid speaking up in this thread, but every time I see new activity here, I feel more and more strongly about it.

    Peace, Love, and Personalities baby
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Not necessarily true. IME Fi-users tend to care more about intent, e.g. when someone has done something wrong and are apologizing while explaining themselves. They find it easier to partially excuse people for having the right intent, while still telling them to do better next time. Whereas, Fe-users are more likely to say "Stop making excuses and fix the problem."
    Either your generalization is flawed, or I am an odd Fi-user. Intent does not excuse effect. Whether someone broke a tool I lent them intentionally or accidentally, it is just as broken. Intent influences only how I handle it. I will think better of the person, not for speaking the words of an apology, but rather taking action to make amends. When presented with an apology, I am likely to say, "I don't care about that. How are we going to fix this?"

    I realize that, as with insults as we previously discussed, I am probably filtering all of this through Te first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You are plainly intelligent and persistent but I don't want to play this game with you anymore, so I am putting you on Ignore for a while.
    Should I feel insulted, or consider this a feather in my cap?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #73
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Either your generalization is flawed, or I am an odd Fi-user. Intent does not excuse effect. Whether someone broke a tool I lent them intentionally or accidentally, it is just as broken. Intent influences only how I handle it. I will think better of the person, not for speaking the words of an apology, but rather taking action to make amends. When presented with an apology, I am likely to say, "I don't care about that. How are we going to fix this?"

    I realize that, as with insults as we previously discussed, I am probably filtering all of this through Te first.
    Ha, this is how my xxTJ boyfriends were with regard to mishaps most of the time. Fe wants to immediately clarify & apologize (I'm also personally highly verbal in terms of trying to express feelings/intent & connect), but actions speak louder than words, so I've learned to try to bite down on the "sorries," unless I can immediately follow it up with a concrete solution (presenting it or already carrying it out), as that tends to resonate better with the Te dom/aux people, than the words alone.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  4. #74
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Lexicon and @Coriolis

    That rings true with my experience, so I guess I was misleading in my statements before. I'm the same way with apologies, generally -- i.e. sorrys don't solve anything, so please just get it fixed -- but I value the reasoning behind their mistake. I've found that Fi-users are more likely to explain themselves, and to respond well to other people explaining themselves. It's good to know where the person was coming from, so you can nip the real problem in the bud by telling them where their thought process went awry. By contrast, my personal experience has shown that Fe users respond very poorly to this and think the Fi user is avoiding taking responsibility for their actions.

    Edit: I also may think more highly of the person if their reasoning was strong, than if it was a stupid or thoughtless mistake.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #75
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    ^ this discussion is going so much better than i thought it would, FYI.

    my impression is that Fi relates by projecting the self externally, so when Fi is confronted by someone's disagreeable actions, it can still relate by asking "how would i be in a position where this would make sense that i would have done the same".

    (edited: on 2nd thought, my reflection on Fe was wrong)

  6. #76
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Lexicon and @Coriolis

    That rings true with my experience, so I guess I was misleading in my statements before. I'm the same way with apologies, generally -- i.e. sorrys don't solve anything, so please just get it fixed -- but I value the reasoning behind their mistake. I've found that Fi-users are more likely to explain themselves, and to respond well to other people explaining themselves. It's good to know where the person was coming from, so you can nip the real problem in the bud by telling them where their thought process went awry. By contrast, my personal experience has shown that Fe users respond very poorly to this and think the Fi user is avoiding taking responsibility for their actions.

    Maybe this isn't so much about Fi/Fe - or I could be a weird Fe person (that wouldn't be too far a leap, ha), but generally I appreciate explanations, as I get to learn better how they process the world, feel, think, etc. I feel closer to them that way. Understanding isn't always going to condone an action, but it helps in preventing future issues, in my experience. I do dislike the overly simple "i'm sorry" phrases that people try to apply as a pacifier or band-aid, to hurry up & move on. It sets off alarms in my head that either they're being insincere, or they're not understanding what the problem might have been, thus we can't really communicate to reach a resolution together.

    I think some people will get touchy on the wording itself of the explanation, and then dismiss it as an excuse (and sometimes that;s all it is, but other times, it's a matter of semantics). Like someone might say, "I yelled because you pissed me off." Well, that's definitely going to feel like the person's assigning culpability for the emotional damage to the other party. Sometimes, that's their intent, other times, they're just not that great at explaining what emotionally set them off so badly. Everyone's got vulnerable spots, & it helps to address it directly when they've been tread upon. So I try to listen/look for that, see if they're attempting to communicate that to me, before dismissing the explanation as avoidance of responsibility. Usually at that point, I'll acknowledge that I see where they're coming from, but point out that I find it unacceptable/hurtful that they chose to act on their feelings in the way they did. Often I reach resolutions with volatile people this way.

    I feel like so many conflicts between people in general wouldn't even happen if people tried to clarify those little things, nuances, that may go unsaid. If that makes sense. But of course that's the idealist's desire; the reality is humans are messy- the cogs in our metacognition & reasoning can easily grind to a halt when you drop particularly sharp feelings into the gears. These things can and will happen, & the most we can do is learn, teach ourselves, grow.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  7. #77
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @Vilku
    if you want to know what enneagram types at their worst are:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rough-9-a.html
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  8. #78
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That rings true with my experience, so I guess I was misleading in my statements before. I'm the same way with apologies, generally -- i.e. sorrys don't solve anything, so please just get it fixed -- but I value the reasoning behind their mistake. I've found that Fi-users are more likely to explain themselves, and to respond well to other people explaining themselves. It's good to know where the person was coming from, so you can nip the real problem in the bud by telling them where their thought process went awry. By contrast, my personal experience has shown that Fe users respond very poorly to this and think the Fi user is avoiding taking responsibility for their actions.

    Edit: I also may think more highly of the person if their reasoning was strong, than if it was a stupid or thoughtless mistake.
    I should have included this as an important step when someone has done something wrong. Yes, I want them to do what they can to fix it, but I also want them to understand why it happened so it can be avoided in future. Someone can do this part even when the problem is not fixable. An explanation that helps to expose where the mistake lies is therefore useful. An explanation that tries to justify the behavior and shirk responsibility just makes the situation worse. Everyone makes mistakes now and then, it's how we handle them that is important.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #79
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    @Ginkgo

    i think unhealthiness is the over use of your primary function, being all lost in over doing it. healthiness is the balance of functions, when you start diverting your attention more equally on all functions. (and thus using them in a constructive, non-destructive way)

    for example, introverted types get lost in their own heads when unhealthy. the external world becomes hostile. for extroverts i suppose we could assume the opposite.
    I think your theory is garbage.

  10. #80
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Either your generalization is flawed, or I am an odd Fi-user. Intent does not excuse effect. Whether someone broke a tool I lent them intentionally or accidentally, it is just as broken. Intent influences only how I handle it. I will think better of the person, not for speaking the words of an apology, but rather taking action to make amends. When presented with an apology, I am likely to say, "I don't care about that. How are we going to fix this?"

    I realize that, as with insults as we previously discussed, I am probably filtering all of this through Te first.
    I think this is being filtered through Te first. It's not entirely incongruous with the Fi thinking but focusses too much on solving the problem.

    @EJCC is on the right track. Fe does concern itself a great deal more with intent, and Fi is much more focussed on the effect, but also mindset. When Fi users (probably more so with FP than TJs) seem like we're taking intent into account, it's really where the mindset (of the person who said/did something) is being evaluated. To me the intent is just another factor in the internal state and thought process that causes a person to act a certain way. Fe does a similar thing where it evaluates intent against the resulting behaviour.

    As for which is more important (effect or mindset), it depends on the situation. It is a complicated, subjective issue, with no hard and fast rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    my impression is that Fi relates by projecting the self externally, so when Fi is confronted by someone's disagreeable actions, it can still relate by asking "how would i be in a position where this would make sense that i would have done the same".


    As for unhealthy MBTI states:

    INFP 4w5 so/sp (me in my mid teens)
    Very moody, sullen, irritable, impatient. Flippant and sometimes tactless. Nitpicking of mistakes and fault in others, deliberately contradictory towards others, perfectionistic, know-it-all-ness. Become extremely withdrawn, distrusting, defensive. Cut themselves off from others, uncommunicative of feelings, bury themselves in solitary activities. Very cynical, disillusioned and pessimistic. Believe that it's them against the world. Self-destructive and neglectful towards self, and yet often self-indulgent and self-absorbed. Act like they don't give a damn about others (although they may very much).

    Basically with INFP all the negativity is turned inward, so they don't really do much harm, except that they're not exactly fun to be around.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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