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  1. #91
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    @OP, classic temperament traditionally went more into the negative side of personality (giving the positive and negative equal time, basically). You can see these here: http://www.fighunter.com/index.php?page=temperaments

    Basically
    Sanguine: short bursts of anger to gain attention
    Choleric: longer anger and criticalness
    Melancholy: critical in a more sad and dour way
    Phlegmatic: slow and lacking energy
    Supine: open dependence, wants affirmation but cannot express himself to get it, so ends up resentful

    This is one thing that made it tricky to correlate temperament with type in places.

    But it turns out that temperament is represented in type by both Keirsey's "conative" groups, as well as the Interaction Styles.

    So if you look at these type correlations (Based on
    Sanguine: ESF/ENP, SP
    Choleric: EST/ENJ, NT
    Melancholy: IST/INJ, SJ
    Phlegmatic/Supine: ISF/INP, NF

    ISTJ: pure Melancholy
    ISFJ: Phlegmatic-Melancholy
    INFJ: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    INTJ: Melancholy-Choleric
    ISTP: Melancholy-Sanguine
    ISFP: Phlegmatic-Sanguine
    INFP: Phlegmatic and/or Supine
    INTP: Phlegmatic-Choleric
    ESTP: Choleric-Sanguine
    ESFP: pure Sanguine
    ENFP: Sanguine-Phlegmatic
    ENTP: Sanguine-Choleric
    ESTJ: Choleric-Melancholy
    ESFJ: Sanguine-Melancholy
    ENFJ: Choleric-Phlegmatic
    ENTJ: pure Choleric


    Your descriptions seem to pretty much match (like the INFP's "dependency", something you almost never hear about in 16 types profiles, proving it is likely Supine. Also, if the person is 7w6, that will probably be more on the Supine side, than 9 or 4, which might be more Phlegmatic).

    INFJ would fit what's known in FIRO as the "Foot-Stomping Dependent", and from what I've heard, when unhealthy, this would match. (The "dependent" would be the "too optimistic" part where you would become abused. The more critical aspects you mention would lend to the "foot-stomping").

    INTP is torn between two diametric opposites; for me, the Supine which wants to be passive and friendly, and the Choleric, who wants to be aggressive and critical. For those who are Phlegmatic in place of Supine, it will be between the Choleric's energy and the Phlegmatic's lack of energy.
    In either case, these opposite drives cancel each other out, leading to what you describe. It's like sometimes I don't know what else to do.

    ENFJ would the same mix in reverse, but I don't know a lot about them first hand. They would likely be a more aggressive version of the "foot-stomping dependent"; someone who bosses everyone around, ultimately to take care of them.

    ESFJ is also two diametric opposites, the fun loving Sanguine and the serious Melancholy. They will bounce back and forth between frivolity and being overly serious or depressed. A friend of ours calls it (in Spanish) "friocaliente" (Both temperaments are prone to mood swings as it is).
    ISTP will be the same thing in reverse. (hence, the anxiety).

    ISFJ, as Supine Melancholy would be a cross between ISTJ and INFP (the purest forms of those temperaments).
    (The rape thing cannot be too generalized to a type, though the APS manuals do mention that a Melancholy might be more likely to rape if raped themselves, and they "play it over and over again in their minds". For ISFJ, I imagine this might be tempered by the Supine or Phlegmatic in the mix. But the point there is, when unhealthy, they would dwell on the negative (si), and it would keep them really depressed and neurotic).

    Classic temperament (such as Tim LaHaye) will generally use Hitler as the example of the pure Choleric at its extreme worst. So that's why I argue Hitler was ENTJ.
    Of course, most people are not that unhealthy, but average unhealthiness would be simply being very aggressive and critical, and needing to win, and also undertaking any behavior necessary to attain their goals. (Including behavior we would take as "Fe", explaining a lot of that confusion, and I notice they also like to turn the tables and play the "victim" even as they loudly accuse others of stuff like "whining", and then actually claim to be "bullied" by those they are actually bullying when they try to fight back).

    The Choleric gets the worst rap (as you can see on that page), but the positive side is that when that aggressiveness and criticalness are healthy and used for good, they are the ones who can accomplish the most.
    Obviously, Western society is very Choleric, and much of the political debate we are hearing now, is from a Choleric society speaking of themselves as the "makers", and blaming the weak for their own and everyone else's problems, but cannot own the negative side (like them constantly rebuffing charges of racism/colonialism, telling everyone to get over it, and ignoring the negative effects of these things).
    i would attribute supine also to isfp. they get all attention whoring when unhealthy. they dont even say it, but if you dont give attention to them talking about food, or even when you dont talk to them, then they get all angry. its like i need to constantly focus all my attention on them.. -.-

    i think hitler being infj makes sense, because hes the person i most relate to in this existence. i often realize, that i have plans very similar to hitlers, and its kind of disturbing.. but at least i learned from his mistake, to not do it. (an sx so gone wrong would make us overly rational and outright cruel. like hitler. i sometimes consider myself, and other people as mere calculations and treat them as such, just calculating what to do with them, and what they are. ignoring any aspect of emotionality. considering it as a product of errors in their thinking. im also very pseudo feely in that state, appearing like all emotionally expressive, but its just a failed attempt of enjoying life. pseudo feeliness is a common unhealthy 4w3 trait. it sometimes shock me when i realize, that ive put a huge show of feelings, but i dont feel any of it deeply. when i read my old posts, it creeps me so much how i can now see that i didnt really feel any of those feelings i thought i felt. it was all just a part of a role i played.)
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  2. #92
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    i would attribute supine also to isfp. they get all attention whoring when unhealthy. they dont even say it, but if you dont give attention to them talking about food, or even when you dont talk to them, then they get all angry. its like i need to constantly focus all my attention on them.. -.-
    I forgot in copying the type/temperament correlation to add Supine. Anywhere you see "Phlegmatic" could also be Supine, so ISFP would be Supine-Sanguine, and fit what you describe. (Supine and Sanguine have the same needs for people, just the Sanguine is more expressive of it, but after awhile, if the Supine doesn't get the need met, they will act out in some way. So the two temperaments combined will of course also seek acknowledgment like that).

    Hitler just doesn't seem Supine, though they all say he's 6 as well, which is very Supine. They can become angry and violent (especially mixed with a more critical temperament like Melancholy; hence, "foot-stomping dependent", but Hitler doesn't seem dependent in the least. So again, he looks like a Choleric ENTJ 8 (or at least a 1) feigning Fe "considering others" behavior just to sway people int he pursuit of his goals.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  3. #93
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Hitler was a NAZI.

    You know who else was like Hitler? Hitler.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Only someone with a lower IQ would say this.
    ORLY?

    “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”


    ― Albert Einstein

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    lols, te's. often your magical thinking annoys me.

    the reality isnt something you can define by test. open your eyes, look outside, see? thats the reality, not some test devised to figure out if people can figure out somethng irrelevant. i mean, seriously, who on earth needs such skills as the abstract thinking that the iq tests are about? you cant apply that in practice.

    next time you beat me at a pokemon game, please dont brag me how big it made you.
    Never argue with a bitter INTJ about IQ tests. It's like the only pathetic thing they can cling to. I've experienced this shit on multiple web sites, with multiple self-typed INTJs, and marveled simultaneously at them missing their own blind spots while happily pointing out everyone else's.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Lexicon and @Coriolis

    That rings true with my experience, so I guess I was misleading in my statements before. I'm the same way with apologies, generally -- i.e. sorrys don't solve anything, so please just get it fixed -- but I value the reasoning behind their mistake. I've found that Fi-users are more likely to explain themselves, and to respond well to other people explaining themselves. It's good to know where the person was coming from, so you can nip the real problem in the bud by telling them where their thought process went awry. By contrast, my personal experience has shown that Fe users respond very poorly to this and think the Fi user is avoiding taking responsibility for their actions.

    Edit: I also may think more highly of the person if their reasoning was strong, than if it was a stupid or thoughtless mistake.
    I've experienced the "I'm sorry, but really let's not actually CHANGE anything" with Si combined with Fe, more than Fe itself, per se. It's like what they are capable of doing to others as a depressed, overwhelmed individual or individual in denial. This is where the ISFJ stereotype comes from, but my ESFJ ex did it too (which is why I left him).

    Usually it's not THAT harmful. Like usually it's your sixty year old grandma smiling politely and saying "okay let's now all have cake" to sweep the fact that your uncle Mort just socked your aunt Janet in the face under the rug...okay, that's still harmful, but it's harmful through neglect.

    I've experienced more benign neglect with Si Fe/Fe Si types in this "sweeping it under the rug" way.

    But it can be overtly harmful in some individuals, obviously, depending on the individual.

  7. #97
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I've experienced the "I'm sorry, but really let's not actually CHANGE anything" with Si combined with Fe, more than Fe itself, per se. It's like what they are capable of doing to others as a depressed, overwhelmed individual or individual in denial. This is where the ISFJ stereotype comes from, but my ESFJ ex did it too (which is why I left him).

    Usually it's not THAT harmful. Like usually it's your sixty year old grandma smiling politely and saying "okay let's now all have cake" to sweep the fact that your uncle Mort just socked your aunt Janet in the face under the rug...okay, that's still harmful, but it's harmful through neglect.

    I've experienced more benign neglect with Si Fe/Fe Si types in this "sweeping it under the rug" way.

    But it can be overtly harmful in some individuals, obviously, depending on the individual.
    My best friend broke up with her unhealthy/immature INFJ 9w1 boyfriend because he did that same thing. Though it was definitely unhealthy Ni tunnel vision + unhealthy 9 complacency on his part; he'd literally forget whole conversations if the truths contained within them were too difficult for him to absorb.

    I would say it's getting worse, but honestly, it's the same as it's always been, and everyone else in our friend group has matured to the point that his behavior is no longer tolerable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    ORLY?

    “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”


    ― Albert Einstein
    Copycat. I used that same quote back at her.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #98
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My comment that insults are in the eye of the beholder means that the receiver can control the emotional impact of the statement. I recognize the examples I listed above as attempts by someone to be insulting, but I refuse to "feel" insulted by them. This is easy to do when one focuses on the objective content (or lack thereof). In this sense I do place responsibility for insults on the receiver. Either the content of the "insult" is accurate and useful, or it is not. So, why then is it bad to try to insult people? It is an ineffective way to address problems, including people you may dislike or not get along with. It relies on inaccuracy, hyperbole, and ugly language, and attempts to manipulate the other person. I see it as a reflection entirely on the speaker, and refuse to be manipulated by it.
    I agree we control our own emotional responses; but as you say in the last bit, it is worth addressing if someone treats you badly. And you did admit that the comments you listed were insults; they just didn't have an emotional impact on you. If someone were to ask the deliverers of those comments if they insulted you, they would likely say yes. It is a completely ineffective way to solve problems, which is why I don't do it as a rule. But I also don't do it because it's just mean.

    I want to reiterate that this is not in any way directed at your interaction on this thread; it is only addressing the topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    "Use a dictionary."

    i did, and all that came up was nonsencial.
    I think you mean "nonsensical."
    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Only someone with a lower IQ would say this.
    Not necessarily. A lot of research into intelligence has been done, and most agree that IQ is not a comprehensive measurement. My IQ is at least above average, possibly in the top 2%, and I don't think IQ's are all they are cracked up to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I lack the proper terminology for a lot of mental disorders so I'll try to use my own words. These have been my personal observations so far.

    ENTP - Narcissistic
    ESFJ - Obsessive Compulsive, Twisted morality (ie: two face, from "The Dark Knight")
    INTP - schitzophrenic Catatonia
    ISFJ - Depressive Catatonia
    ISTP - schitzophrenic paranoia
    ESTP - Sadistic Sociopathy
    ENFJ - Narcissistic Psychopathy
    INFJ - Depressive and Masochism
    ESFP - Vanity Histrionic
    ISFP - Vanity and Masochism
    ENTJ - Narcissistic Sociopathy
    INTJ - Paranoia Narcissism
    ENFP - Vanity Narcissism
    INFP - Depressive Dependant
    ESTJ - Obsessive Compulsive Narcissism
    ISTJ - Sociopathy or Passive Aggressive
    While it must obviously be said that being "unhealthy" is far from having an actual disorder, I think your categories are pretty accurate in describing the directions in which types tend to go.

    @Vilku: I approve of the thread topic, and believe that constructive criticism is usually useful. Typology is useful in helping people grow toward their most functional selves.

    However, I think you have been letting some of your personal biases color your assessments. Also I believe that you are in fact ENFJ and not INFJ. You respond to people in the same way as the one I knew. (Given what I said about her that may sound terrible, but I'm not saying you are like her in any of those ways- just that you become defensive when criticized and seem to exhibit inferior Ti.)
    Edit: Not of course that it matters. I would be a huge hypocrite if I were to make a big deal over someone possibly being mistyped.

    @Mole /@Victor, whoever you are: I mean this as constructive criticism and not an insult: it has been pointed out to you over and over that your responses to people are often out of proportion to what is typically functional and usual with regard to comments which have a critical tone. While it may be the case in some cases that people are insulting you, it might benefit you to engage in some introspection and ascertain whether there is a grain of truth in what they say, and suppress your emotional response. While I will not go so far as to call you "unhealthy" because I don't know you and your circumstances, it is typical of IXFP's in the grip of inferior Te to perceive criticism and negative judgment where it is not.

  9. #99
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    @Mole /@Victor, whoever you are: I mean this as constructive criticism and not an insult: it has been pointed out to you over and over that your responses to people are often out of proportion to what is typically functional and usual with regard to comments which have a critical tone. While it may be the case in some cases that people are insulting you, it might benefit you to engage in some introspection and ascertain whether there is a grain of truth in what they say, and suppress your emotional response. While I will not go so far as to call you "unhealthy" because I don't know you and your circumstances, it is typical of IXFP's in the grip of inferior Te to perceive criticism and negative judgment where it is not.
    Personal insults are against the rules and may lead to banning.

  10. #100
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Personal insults are against the rules and may lead to banning.
    Are you talking about me insulting you or others? And people don't get banned after a few insults. They get infractions IF the mods deem their behaviour against the rules.

    Well, I tried. If you're not interested in learning about your type, that's unfortunate for you.

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