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  1. #11
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Thanks INTP, this is very awesome.

    It supports The Great One's answer. Thank you for taking the time to find this and post it.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @DJ Arendee

    Thanks for responding.

    So, if I'm reading you right, in order to create these various systems, a person would possibly utilize all the cognitive functions to some degree or another at varying points in the process in the creation of a world with languages, geographical features, various societies, religions, etc.?
    Yes. Remember these are judging and perception functions. These are not homeostatic functions. Its not like Si is responsible for the medula oblongata, which is responsible for your pulse and other involuntary muscles. I doubt Se is responsible for coordination either. As far as I can tell, Se is simply a way to pull in the information. Though Se does percieve pressures of objects in the environment which aids in navigation. I am by no means a graceful person. I've been told I have excellent control, but no grace.

  3. #13
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Great One,

    Thanks a bunch. Your answers are very helpful. Yeah, I can see where Ti might be the primary "tool" needed in developing and building a language system and yes, Te might be more suited to number systems. Perhaps that is because number systems can be used for precise calculations whereas language systems are more open-ended and ongoing. I think that maybe language is more divergent.
    No prob. Also you said this....


    How about world-building, including an understanding of all the geographical features of a planet and how they interact and the impact and role they played upon the cultures arising on said planet? [would this also be a systems building]
    I have no idea what function would be good at understanding geographical features. However for understanding various socio-cultural practices and cultural norms, I believe that Fe would be good for this. Fe is a very social function and it easily understands what is considered a societal norm, what offends people, and how to behave around certain people.


    Once the novel is written, the author must either become an entrepreneur and self-publish or become a literary salesperson and convince an existing company to buy the book. What cognitive functions come into play here?
    Ok I can easily answer this question for you, because I am a former sales manager and used to train people on how to sell stuff. The best functions for sales are Se, Ti, and Fe. I find that many ExTP's are great at sales because they are extroverts (which is good for sales) and they use the Ti<Fe combo. The Ti<Fe combo is good for sales because Ti can find the perfect way to word anything and Fe understands the impact on which their words have on others, and this makes a killer sales combo. After all, many things in sales are how you word things. For instance, compare these two wordings against each other and tell me who you think would buy my product based on the wording:

    1) Hey do you wanna buy some sports memorabilia?

    2)Hey check these out, they're extras. These licensed plaques were 65 bucks at the stadium, now they're 20 bucks. How many you want?

    Notice in the second example, that I that I didn't use certain "trigger words". Trigger words are subconscious words that trigger in a person's mind that you are trying sell them something, and people don't like to be sold things, but instead like to buy things. Trigger words are words like: buy, sell, deal, offer, going faster than hotcakes, etc. People don't want to feel pressured into buying things, but instead want to feel like they made the choice themselves to buy things. Again Ti very much understands how to word things, and coupled with Fe can also easily understand how their words effect people and how they evoke reactions in people. This is why this combo is such a killer sales combo.

    Also, take into consideration Ti<Fe moral values as well. Fi<Te moral values tend to be set in stone and tend to believe that things are always wrong or right no matter what. Ti<Fe moral values tend to be more situation based and Ti<Fe users tend to judge whether something is wrong or right based upon whether their actions hurt someone or not. It is for this reason that many Ti users have no problem with lying to people, which is an admirable trait in sales. After all, if I lie to this person, it doesn't necessarily hurt this person, so then why is it wrong then? To be good in sales, you constantly have to lie to people to sell products: you have to lie about how many products you have left, you have to make the product seem better than it is, and you have to make the product seem more demand than what it necessarily may be. So being full of shit is an admirable quality in sales.

    Se is also a great function to use in sales. Sales is very gut-centered activity and involves pure action most of the time. Many times, during an intense price negotiation with a potential client, you have to be able to think fast on your toes, and don't have time to sit down and think about what you are doing. This is where Se comes in handy, because Se can easily take action in the present moment without too much thought. This is often a weak point for many ENTP salesman who would actually prefer to sit down and analyze things bit more, and to strategize a bit more.

    Finally a little bit more on Fe and sales: The Fe function can be very charming (especially when used by extroverts: ESTP's, ENTP's, ENFJ's, and ESFJ's) and this is also good for sales. Being able to charm people helps to get people to like you, which in turn can get you sales.

    So I'm sure that after looking at this very thorough functional analysis, you could easily see why ESTP's are the kings of sales.

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    Dune - Si/Te

    2001: A Space Odyssey - Ti/Se

    Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Ne/Fi

    Rendezvous With Rama - Ti/Se

    Garden of Rama - Ni/Te

    Michael Crichton (in general) - Ti/Ne


    I think it depends on what you want to do with the world you are crafting.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Yes. Remember these are judging and perception functions. These are not homeostatic functions. Its not like Si is responsible for the medula oblongata, which is responsible for your pulse and other involuntary muscles. I doubt Se is responsible for coordination either. As far as I can tell, Se is simply a way to pull in the information. Though Se does percieve pressures of objects in the environment which aids in navigation. I am by no means a graceful person. I've been told I have excellent control, but no grace.
    This is very helpful. So, really, Se would actually be a helpful way of perceiving if, say you were going to recall and write about the physical environment? I mean like if I were writing a scene where a person was descending into a volcanic crater and his struggle was against the elements or rather the physical conditions surrounding him, then an awareness of factors [such as heat intensity and its effect upon the human body, etc. ] that go into making up that experience would be needed to make the scene come alive. And then, when I brought it down to a personal level and say had someone traveling across a desert, a physical orientation of one's place in that desert and the impact of the elements on the person's body and mind would be more subjective and then that would require an Si perceiving function. That leads me to the conclusion that at some point and time, it becomes necessary for any writer of action to draw upon Se, at least to some degree, so that the scene seems truly oriented in time and space and upon Si so that the impact upon the characters seems realistic and tangible.

    Now I am also thinking that Ne would be the function that allows a person to come up with the notion of another world in the first place. I can't help but wonder if Stan Lee, creator of the Marvel universe, George Lucas and others who have successfully built fictional worlds and solar systems rely heavily upon Ne perception while the development of the various philosophies, ideologies and religions of these said worlds rely more heavily upon Ni. The wheels in my head have been turning about writing and functions for some time now and this discussion is helping me work through a notion that nags at me, a notion that we all employ functions other than our preferred ones when we realize our preferred ones will not accomplish the task or when we suddenly find ourselves outside our comfort zones.

    And in speaking of comfort zones, @The Great One, thank you for that explanation on the functions that go into selling. Yes, I can see, after reading your analysis, why ESTPs are the king of selling. My brother and sister are both ESTP and so is a dear long time friend and all three of them could sell legs to a centipede and make the centipede feel like he'd gotten a bargain.

    Your analysis actually helps me to understand why I have to work so hard at that and why it actually feels like work to me. The thing I do have going for me is the charm and this raw honesty, or natural authenticity [it doesn't come through so much on here, I suppose, but it does when I'm on stage], that makes people feel so "connected" to me, yet, the truth is that I am just sharing from a basic understanding of what it means to be human and somewhat humane.

    I had rather write a hundred novels than get out and sell one. I have to psyche myself up when I know I've got to get out there and sell. It's exhausting and it doesn't come natural to me, but hey, if I want people to know about my books, I have to get out there and promote myself. The sales is the hardest part. I'm not saying that I can't do it or that I don't do it, but that at the end of the day I have to come to a place and do an internal check to make sure that I haven't "lost" anything of internal or eternal value while I'm out there. It's hard when people start pulling on me and wanting me to do things and go places and it's difficult to know which doors to walk through and which ones are going to lead me into a snake pit filled with money hungry vipers. Even the tiny doses that I experience makes me realize that it is no wonder so many celebrities get so screwed up. If they have no time for reflection and no time to re-center themselves, then surely they are bound to get lost in the shuffle. I think above all, that I never want to loose sight of myself or forget who I really am. What's the saying? "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and loose his own soul?" I think of soul as self-identity.

    If it wasn't for the fact that I believe strongly in my work and in its ability to touch people on some level and bring them more in touch with who they are, then I don't think I could or would want to do it [I mean the selling part. The writing part is like the greatest thing ever.] Eek, I'm prattling. I do that sometimes.

    @superunknown
    I think it depends on what you want to do with the world you are crafting.
    Yeah, I suppose so, BUT I also can't help but wonder if maybe the kind of world crafting we do depends on the functions we prefer. I mean I still believe all functions go into it but ultimately a book reflects a certain amount of the author and what the author values and that may well be a reflection of the author's moral values, personality and cognitive functions.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Yeah, I suppose so, BUT I also can't help but wonder if maybe the kind of world crafting we do depends on the functions we prefer. I mean I still believe all functions go into it but ultimately a book reflects a certain amount of the author and what the author values and that may well be a reflection of the author's moral values, personality and cognitive functions.
    Without a doubt.

    What would you hope to reflect from your work?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Without a doubt.

    What would you hope to reflect from your work?
    Good question. I see what you're up to. You're gonna make me think hard and search deep before I go to sleep tonight. Oh well, what are robotic friends for anyway?

    I hope that my work reflects that all of us come into this world with hopes and dreams, some of us just get lost along the way.

    I hope it reflects my desire to see my readers encouraged...to keep dreaming, to never give up, no matter what the world throws at them and I hope it reflects my belief that there is no power greater than the power of unconditional love.

    I also hope it reflects my desire to see each one of them aspire to be the best version of themselves as they can possibly be, maybe to be a little more forgiving [on themselves and others], a little kinder, a little more patient, to stand up for what they know in their hearts to be right and above all, to never let anyone else prescribe their truth for them. We each have our own path to walk and if we let them, other people will create us in their own images. I believe each of us has a bliss, a true self and a good purpose in this world, but we are faced from birth to the grave with whether we will choose to believe all the negative stuff that is fed to us or whether we will choose to believe that we can be the superior person [as the ancient Chinese said.]

    The Cherokee have a story. It may be cliché but it illustrates my thinking well.

    A grandfather told his grandson that inside of every person there are two wolves who are always fighting. One wolf is dark and one wolf is light. The little boy asked, "Which wolf will win?" The grandfather said, "The one you feed the most." I hope that my work inspires people to feed the right wolf.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Good question. I see what you're up to. You're gonna make me think hard and search deep before I go to sleep tonight. Oh well, what are robotic friends for anyway?
    I have been told I am adept at questioning. Maybe not so much fleshing out answers. Perhaps it is a trade-off, and a fair one at that.

    I hope that my work reflects that all of us come into this world with hopes and dreams, some of us just get lost along the way.

    I hope it reflects my desire to see my readers encouraged...to keep dreaming, to never give up, no matter what the world throws at them and I hope it reflects my belief that there is no power greater than the power of unconditional love.

    I also hope it reflects my desire to see each one of them aspire to be the best version of themselves as they can possibly be, maybe to be a little more forgiving [on themselves and others], a little kinder, a little more patient, to stand up for what they know in their hearts to be right and above all, to never let anyone else prescribe their truth for them. We each have our own path to walk and if we let them, other people will create us in their own images. I believe each of us has a bliss, a true self and a good purpose in this world, but we are faced from birth to the grave with whether we will choose to believe all the negative stuff that is fed to us or whether we will choose to believe that we can be the superior person [as the ancient Chinese said.]

    The Cherokee have a story. It may be cliché but it illustrates my thinking well.

    A grandfather told his grandson that inside of every person there are two wolves who are always fighting. One wolf is dark and one wolf is light. The little boy asked, "Which wolf will win?" The grandfather said, "The one you feed the most." I hope that my work inspires people to feed the right wolf.
    Very intriguing. It could all certainly make for some solid story-telling, particularly those with a nose for contextual learning. I wonder which wolf @Poimandres would feed.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Very intriguing. It could all certainly make for some solid story-telling, particularly those with a nose for contextual learning. I wonder which wolf @Poimandres would feed.
    I frankly don't get this metaphor, but if both wolves were battling it out for life and death, and one of them had to 'win' (kill the other wolf), then I would rather let them both starve!
    It's kind of an ideal for peace, to not play favorites or let one side destroy the other, but rather to teach each player the independence to fend for himself and to be a freethinker.
    If there's anything we need to be feeding, it's our own solitary fire, the fire that will reflect everything we put into it (radiate our own individual ideas and accomplishments).

  10. #20
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    I frankly don't get this metaphor, but if both wolves were battling it out for life and death, and one of them had to 'win' (kill the other wolf), then I would rather let them both starve!
    It's kind of an ideal for peace, to not play favorites or let one side destroy the other, but rather to teach each player the independence to fend for himself and to be a freethinker.
    If there's anything we need to be feeding, it's our own solitary fire, the fire that will reflect everything we put into it (radiate our own individual ideas and accomplishments).
    You are right in saying you don't get the metaphor. It doesn't mean that at all. There is no life or death mentioned in the metaphor. At all times, we are either feeding one wolf or the other.

    Hmmm...how can I explain it? Let me see....Oh, I've got it. I must channel Master Yoda for this one!

    The wolves are the force, Young Jedi.

    They are not battling for life and death, but for preeminence in our beings. Both always live but the one that dominates your life represents the choices you make and what you put into your life [what you throw into the fire to fuel it so to speak]. Even people who claim to make no choices at all, who refuses to make choices, has made a choice in choosing not to choose. Even doing nothing is doing something and therefore, we are always feeding the person we will become. There is no idle while we dwell in this temporal existence. You're either living in this life or you're not and if you are then you are constantly "becoming" and "being" and if you are being and becoming then you are fueling/feeding the creature you are and the creature you are becoming. The wolves are our inner selves, call it a fire or whatever you want. But even a fire dies if it isn't fueled. So, we still make a choice, we either fuel the fire or we let it die. All of life is about choices. We either pursue a dream or we don't. We either commit to love or we don't. We either eat or we don't. We either feed all that will make us a better person [light wolf] or we allow others to dictate who we are and we build our lives on lies [dark wolf].

    Hope this explains it better.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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