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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Carl Jung 'Proves' Existence Of An Auxiliary Function

    The context is an exploration of the Extraverted Thinking function -

    "There is also, however and now I come to the question of the introverted intellect an entirely different kind of thinking, to which the term thinking can hardly be denied: it is a kind [of thinking] that is neither orientated by the immediate objective experience nor is it concerned with general and objectively derived ideas. I reach this other kind of thinking in the following way. When my thoughts are engaged with a concrete object or general idea in such a way that the course of my thinking eventually leads me back again to my object, this intellectual process is not the only psychic proceeding taking place in me at the moment. I will disregard all those possible sensations and feelings which become noticeable as a more or less disturbing accompaniment to my train of thought, merely emphasizing the fact that this very thinking process [viz., extraverted] which proceeds from objective data and strives again towards the object stands also in a constant relation to the subject. This relation is a conditio sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place[...]This parallel subjective process has a natural tendency, only relatively avoidable, to subjectify objective facts, i.e., to assimilate them to the subject." (Psychological Types, 430-1.)

    If this was intended as proof of the existence of an auxiliary function, then it certainly falls short. The "conditio sine qua non" of the thinking process doesn't necessarily have to be a function at all.

    At this point in the book he is calling the Ni and Si types a form of "thinking" ("to which the term thinking can hardly be denied"), which is rather confusing but understandable as he is only formally recognizing their existence at this time. The quote offers a nice description of what the auxiliary function does, even if it really offers no proof of it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    Carl Jung, for all of his supernatural Jedi powers, couldn't even catch the reflection of his own type as he gazed in his hazy states into that mirror to prove the reality of its existence.

  3. #3
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Carl Jung, for all of his supernatural Jedi powers, couldn't even catch the reflection of his own type as he gazed in his hazy states into that mirror to prove the reality of its existence.
    SolitaryWalker proved the non-existence of RaptorWizard.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    SolitaryWalker proved the non-existence of RaptorWizard.
    Well I guess this conclusion of yours that 'logically follows' from my terms makes me just like Carl Jung!

  5. #5
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    At this point in the book he is calling the Ni and Si types a form of "thinking" ("to which the term thinking can hardly be denied"), which is rather confusing but understandable as he is only formally recognizing their existence at this time. The quote offers a nice description of what the auxiliary function does, even if it really offers no proof of it.
    Say what? The passage you quoted is Jung describing introverted thinking. It has nothing to do with "Ni and Si types" or the auxiliary function.

    It comes near the start of Jung's discussion of extraverted thinking. To put Te in context, he digresses for two paragraphs and offers a mini-introduction to Ti. Here are those paragraphs in full:

    Although I do not propose to discuss the nature of introverted thinking at this point, reserving it for a later section (pars. 628-31), it is essential that I should say a few words about it before proceeding further. For if one reflects on what I have just said about extraverted thinking, one might easily conclude that this covers everything that is ordinarily understood as thinking. A thinking that is directed neither to objective facts nor to general ideas, one might argue, scarcely deserves the name "thinking" at all. I am fully aware that our age and its most eminent representatives know and acknowledge only the extraverted type of thinking. This is largely because all the thinking that appears visibly on the surface in the form of science or philosophy or even art either derives directly from objects or else flows into general ideas. For both these reasons it appears essentially understandable, even though it may not always be self-evident, and it is therefore regarded as valid. In this sense it might be said that the extraverted intellect oriented by objective data is actually the only one that is recognized. But—and now I come to the question of the introverted intellect—there also exists an entirely different kind of thinking, to which the term "thinking" can hardly be denied: it is a kind that is oriented neither by immediate experience of objects nor by traditional ideas. I reach this other kind of thinking in the following manner: when my thoughts are preoccupied with a concrete object or a general idea, in such a way that the course of my thinking eventually leads me back to my starting-point, this intellectual process is not the only psychic process that is going on in me. I will disregard all those sensations and feelings which become noticeable as a more or less disturbing accompaniment to my train of thought, and will merely point out that this very thinking process which starts from the object and returns to the object also stands in a constant relation to the subject. This relation is a sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place. Even though my thinking process is directed, as far as possible, to objective data, it is still my subjective process, and it can neither avoid nor dispense with this admixture of subjectivity. Struggle as I may to give an objective orientation to my train of thought, I cannot shut out the parallel subjective process and its running accompaniment without extinguishing the very spark of life from my thought. This parallel process has a natural and hardly avoidable tendency to subjectify the objective data and assimilate them to the subject.

    Now when the main accent lies on the subjective process, that other kind of thinking arises which is opposed to extraverted thinking, namely, that purely subjective orientation which I call introverted. This thinking is neither determined by objective data nor directed to them; it is a thinking that starts from the subject and is directed to subjective ideas or subjective facts. I do not wish to enter more fully into this kind of thinking here; I have merely established its existence as the necessary complement of extraverted thinking and brought it into clearer focus.

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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Then explain this part of the quote:

    "This relation is a sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place. Even though my thinking process is directed, as far as possible, to objective data, it is still my subjective process, and it can neither avoid nor dispense with this admixture of subjectivity. Struggle as I may to give an objective orientation to my train of thought, I cannot shut out the parallel subjective process and its running accompaniment without extinguishing the very spark of life from my thought. This parallel process has a natural and hardly avoidable tendency to subjectify the objective data and assimilate them to the subject."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Then explain this part of the quote:

    "This relation is a sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place. Even though my thinking process is directed, as far as possible, to objective data, it is still my subjective process, and it can neither avoid nor dispense with this admixture of subjectivity. Struggle as I may to give an objective orientation to my train of thought, I cannot shut out the parallel subjective process and its running accompaniment without extinguishing the very spark of life from my thought. This parallel process has a natural and hardly avoidable tendency to subjectify the objective data and assimilate them to the subject."
    Here's a fuller passage, and I've marked it with comments:

    I reach this other kind of thinking [i.e., introverted thinking] in the following manner: when my thoughts are preoccupied with a concrete object or a general idea, in such a way that the course of my thinking eventually leads me back to my starting-point, [i.e., when I'm engaged in extraverted thinking] this intellectual process is not the only psychic process that is going on in me. I will disregard all those sensations and feelings which become noticeable as a more or less disturbing accompaniment to my train of thought, and will merely point out that this very thinking process which starts from the object and returns to the object also stands in a constant relation to the subject [extraverted thinking, whether the Te-dom likes it or not, can't help but also stand "in a constant relation to the subject"]. This relation [of thinking to the subject] is a sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place. Even though my thinking process is directed, as far as possible, to objective data [i.e., even though I'm engaging in extraverted thinking], it is still my subjective process, and it can neither avoid nor dispense with this admixture of subjectivity. Struggle as I may to give an objective orientation to my train of thought [because I'm an extraverted thinker], I cannot shut out the parallel subjective process and its running accompaniment without extinguishing the very spark of life from my thought [I can't totally eliminate the subjective (introverted) element because it's unavoidable that a subject (me) is doing the thinking]. This parallel process has a natural and hardly avoidable tendency to subjectify the objective data and assimilate them to the subject.

    Now when the main accent lies on the subjective process, that other kind of thinking arises which is opposed to extraverted thinking, namely, that purely subjective orientation which I call introverted [when that "parallel process" of introverted thinking is given the "main accent" (unlike for the Te-dom, for whom extraverted thinking has the main accent), the thinking becomes introverted thinking]. This thinking is neither determined by objective data nor directed to them; it is a thinking that starts from the subject and is directed to subjective ideas or subjective facts. I do not wish to enter more fully into this kind of thinking here; I have merely established its existence as the necessary complement of extraverted thinking and brought it into clearer focus.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Here's a fuller passage, and I've marked it with comments:

    I reach this other kind of thinking [i.e., introverted thinking] in the following manner: when my thoughts are preoccupied with a concrete object or a general idea, in such a way that the course of my thinking eventually leads me back to my starting-point, [i.e., when I'm engaged in extraverted thinking] this intellectual process is not the only psychic process that is going on in me. I will disregard all those sensations and feelings which become noticeable as a more or less disturbing accompaniment to my train of thought, and will merely point out that this very thinking process which starts from the object and returns to the object also stands in a constant relation to the subject [extraverted thinking, whether the Te-dom likes it or not, can't help but also stand "in a constant relation to the subject"]. This relation [of thinking to the subject] is a sine qua non, without which no thinking process whatsoever could take place. Even though my thinking process is directed, as far as possible, to objective data [i.e., even though I'm engaging in extraverted thinking], it is still my subjective process, and it can neither avoid nor dispense with this admixture of subjectivity. Struggle as I may to give an objective orientation to my train of thought [because I'm an extraverted thinker], I cannot shut out the parallel subjective process and its running accompaniment without extinguishing the very spark of life from my thought [I can't totally eliminate the subjective (introverted) element because it's unavoidable that a subject (me) is doing the thinking]. This parallel process has a natural and hardly avoidable tendency to subjectify the objective data and assimilate them to the subject.

    Now when the main accent lies on the subjective process, that other kind of thinking arises which is opposed to extraverted thinking, namely, that purely subjective orientation which I call introverted [when that "parallel process" of introverted thinking is given the "main accent" (unlike for the Te-dom, for whom extraverted thinking has the main accent), the thinking becomes introverted thinking]. This thinking is neither determined by objective data nor directed to them; it is a thinking that starts from the subject and is directed to subjective ideas or subjective facts. I do not wish to enter more fully into this kind of thinking here; I have merely established its existence as the necessary complement of extraverted thinking and brought it into clearer focus.

    This is even worse. Ti is not and never has been a parallel process working subjectively, hand-in-hand with Te.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #9
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    This is even worse. Ti is not and never has been a parallel process working subjectively, hand-in-hand with Te.
    You're construing "parallel process" in a way Jung obviously doesn't mean in this context. All Jung is saying is that, try as he might, the Te-dom can't totally eliminate the fact that Ti is down in there somewhere — and, as Jung explains (and this is his main point), deserves to be considered a form of "thinking" to the same extent as Te. He doesn't say it means that the Te-dom's thinking is introverted to any substantial degree.

    If you've got a contrary interpretation that makes sense of that passage as a whole, I'm all ears — and good luck.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    You're construing "parallel process" in a way Jung obviously doesn't mean in this context. All Jung is saying is that, try as he might, the Te-dom can't totally eliminate the fact that Ti is down in there somewhere — and, as Jung explains (and this is his main point), deserves to be considered a form of "thinking" to the same extent as Te. He doesn't say it means that the Te-dom's thinking is introverted to any substantial degree.

    If you've got a contrary interpretation that makes sense of that passage as a whole, I'm all ears — and good luck.
    I agree that Jung needs to make a case for the introverted thinking function, and of course he states that in his day only extraverted thinking was recognized as thinking.

    But assuming that the cited text actually refers to introverted thinking, your interpretation that "the Te-dom can't totally eliminate the fact that Ti is down in there somewhere" doesn't follow from the text. The Te-dom is not attempting to eliminate any subjective functions. Jung is saying that there is a NECESSARY complement to the extraverted function, and that the existence of the complement is necessitated by the fact that all thinking, be it extraverted or introverted, is subjective, i.e, it originates with the subject.

    From this we may also infer the existence of many introverted functions, including the auxiliaries to the Te-dominant function.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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