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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Interpret this Jung quote

    "But in so far as we apply perception and judgment in equal measure, it may easily happen that a personality appears to us as both introverted and extraverted, so that we cannot at once decide to which attitude the superior function belongs. In such cases only a thorough analysis of the function qualities can help us to a sound opinion. During the analysis we must observe which function is placed under the control and motivation of consciousness, and which functions have an accidental and spontaneous character. The former is always more highly differentiated than the latter, which also possess many infantile and primitive qualities."

    (Psychological Types, 427-8.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    That's a very complex way of saying: people show different sides of themselves.

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    Basically he's saying, some people apply their perception function and judging function equally (such as myself). When typing someone and this is the case, its best to take notice of which unconscious functions activate involuntarily and spontaneously, and this will tell us the person's type.

    For example, socionics describes how ESTp's have a spontaneous use of Ne in short bursts of time, so by observing this, you can see that the person is ESTP or ESFP. You then have to look for the primitive and sporadic all or nothing internal emotional state (Fi) of an ESTp. when deciding between LSI and SLE.

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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    That's a very complex way of saying: people show different sides of themselves.
    We already know that people have different aspects to their personalities.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Basically he's saying, some people apply their perception function and judging function equally (such as myself). When typing someone and this is the case, its best to take notice of which unconscious functions activate involuntarily and spontaneously, and this will tell us the person's type.

    For example, socionics describes how ESTp's have a spontaneous use of Ne in short bursts of time, so by observing this, you can see that the person is ESTP or ESFP. You then have to look for the primitive and sporadic all or nothing internal emotional state (Fi) of an ESTp. when deciding between LSI and SLE.
    What is a good real life example of an ESTp showing this all or nothing Fi?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What is a good real life example of an ESTp showing this all or nothing Fi?
    They usually exhibit drop dead boredom, or stark enthusiasm. It applies to ENTp's as well. People might often comment that the person has no morals, or his morals will seemingly come out of nowhere as a complete shock to most everyone around him. For example, when I get angry at a guy talking about how he wants to beat up strangers... you probably would never have guessed I actually cared about anything other than myself, but I'm suddenly cursing him out.

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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    They usually exhibit drop dead boredom, or stark enthusiasm. It applies to ENTp's as well. People might often comment that the person has no morals, or his morals will seemingly come out of nowhere as a complete shock to most everyone around him. For example, when I get angry at a guy talking about how he wants to beat up strangers... you probably would never have guessed I actually cared about anything other than myself, but I'm suddenly cursing him out.
    How is that action distinguished from auxiliary Fi?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    How is that action distinguished from auxiliary Fi?
    Hmm... good question... haha. Socionics lists all the functions and their locations and times of use: here

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Okay, let's see, Jung uses a lot of jargon here so I've got to break this thing down into pieces to see if I understand it and even then I may still not have a clue what I'm talking about, but I'll just talk anyway.

    But in so far as we apply perception and judgment in equal measure, it may easily happen that a personality appears to us as both introverted and extraverted, so that we cannot at once decide to which attitude the superior function belongs.
    Sometimes, you can't tell just by casual observation if a function is extroverted or introverted.

    In such cases only a thorough analysis of the function qualities can help us to a sound opinion.
    Have the person take a test that analyses functions so you can form an accurate opinion, because you can't always just look at somebody and assign a function predominance.

    During the analysis we must observe which function is placed under the control and motivation of consciousness, and which functions have an accidental and spontaneous character.
    During the break down [analysis, assessment] you have to pay attention to which function is being consciously accessed and engaged and which ones are sporadic.

    The former is always more highly differentiated than the latter, which also possess many infantile and primitive qualities."
    Self-explanatory to the degree that I have no idea what to say about it. haha.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Here's a fuller version of that quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Naturally it also depends very largely on the attitude of the observer whether he seizes hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of the personality. Generally speaking, a judging observer will tend to seize on the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be more influenced by the unconscious character, since judgment is chiefly concerned with the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception registers the process itself. But in so far as we apply judgment and perception in equal measure, it may easily happen that a personality appears to us as both introverted and extraverted, so that we cannot decide at first to which attitude the superior function belongs. In such cases only a thorough analysis of the qualities of each function can help us to form a valid judgment. We must observe which function is completely under conscious control, and which functions have a haphazard and spontaneous character. The former is always more highly differentiated than the latter, which also possess infantile and primitive traits. Occasionally the superior function gives the impression of normality, while the others have something abnormal or pathological about them.
    Contrary to Myers (who acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars disagreed with her), Jung would not have expected the second function — to the extent that it was differentiated, brought into consciousness and put to use as the auxiliary — to have the opposite attitude to the dominant function. To Jung, introversion was the conscious attitude of introverts, while their unconscious functions — to the extent that they remained unconscious — would all have the opposite attitude (i.e., be extraverted).

    In the passage you're asking about, Jung starts out making the point (further discussed here) that J-doms tend to type people in terms of their conscious sides, while P-doms tend to type people in terms of their unconscious sides. But, Jung continues, "in so far as we apply judgment and perception in equal measure, it may easily happen that a personality appears to us as both introverted and extraverted" — because we're focusing on both the subject's conscious and unconscious sides — with the result that "we cannot decide at first" which function is the dominant one. And Jung goes on to explain that a good way to figure out which of the functions is dominant is to take note of which function seems to be "completely under conscious control" and "more highly differentiated" (that would be the dom) and which functions display "infantile and primitive traits" (those would be the other three, because they're more unconscious).

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