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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Why We Disagree On Type Calls

    "Naturally it [difficulty observing type] depends very largely also upon the attitude of the observer, whether he lays hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of a personality. Speaking generally a judging observer will tend to seize the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be influenced more by the unconscious character, since judgment is chiefly interested in the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception tends to register the mere happening." (Psychological Types, 427.)

    So Judgers tend to "lay hold of" the conscious, that is, the superior, or conscious, dominant function which motivates or drives a person; while Perceivers register behavioral actuality which creeps up from the unconscious ego, representing functions that the person is not completely aware of or in control of.

    I used to make various observations about my 8w7 ESTJ former boss, who is quite the man's man and completely in charge of his external realm of activity. But external control and - in his case - domination, is implicitly about controlling the subconscious, or unconscious, subjective factor.

    As a result, his actual behavior, as I observed it, was entirely childish for a man's man such as him. He was childishly selfish, and he had the 2-year-old's greedy attitude of "mine! mine! mine!" His entire personal world was ego-dominant. And he used to "play" with other people like they were his toys. If he was bored, he would create problems, while pretending to be completely innocent of everything, and then order his employees to clean up the messes while blaming them for it all.

    If I were a Judger, these things would not register with me. Judging is something I've developed through personality theory. Perceivers, I've found, don't understand my judgments about personality issues such as motives which Judgers are instinctively aware of. An untrained observer of human behavior doesn't understand, and becomes a victim of Judger motivations they can't comprehend because they, as every untrained person, assumes everybody else's thought-patterns match their own. Thus the average Perceiver is left standing flat-footed while the Judger, who instinctively understands motivation and thus can gain control over humans through their various motivations, runs circles around him.

    That's not to say that Judgers are always right, instincts are not omniscient. But if Judgers are right more often than not in their instincts about what drives people, then they can gain the upper-hand more often than not.

    The Perceiver doesn't think in such terms. Judgers ruined my childhood. Judgers are intensely competitive at games, while I played them for fun. Winning or losing didn't affect me, I was interested in observing the outcomes. For some reason, this makes Judgers extremely angry. Whenever Judgers became involved in sports I was active in, they ruined it for me because it stopped being fun due to the constant pressure to succeed and win. They didn't see me as motivated by perception, but only the fact that I was not driven enough by their motives to take it all so seriously. Of course I realize we had different ideas about the concept of "fun." "Fun" to me was playing the game, "fun" was in the "journey" and in observing the outcome; "fun" to them was plotting how to win and then winning the game.

    Since, for me, outcomes are objective, these outcomes are spoiled by any cheating. For Judgers, cheating was part of the game. As an example, my former boss, who would cheat anybody at any time; and even if he lost in the end, the fact that someone else got cheated made it all worthwhile. I literally observed him clap his hands together once and then start rubbing them together in glee, grinning as if he was some villain in a "b" grade movie. I watched as he falsified his computerized business records in order to cheat some Israeli businessmen out of a mere $5000, which to him is chicken feed, simply in order to win a contract which others were competing for. Money wasn't the motive, winning was the motive.

    We disagree on type calls because we focus on different elements of a personality. Judgers focus on motives, while Perceivers focus on behaviors. I've described personality in this post which to me is mostly a behavior, by instinct. But due to personality training I can delve down to the motives, it just doesn't come as easy to me.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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    Okay, I was too darn lazy to read this, but this is a phenomenon I have found very funny; people are just so sure of themselves and what types they declare others to be (and this attitude can be commonly observed with "any" opinions people develop on a variety of topics), without being open-minded enough to question their initial assumptions and check them against outside perspectives to "test" the fundamental architecture of their designs.

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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Okay, I was too darn lazy to read this, but this is a phenomenon I have found very funny; people are just so sure of themselves and what types they declare others to be (and this attitude can be commonly observed with "any" opinions people develop on a variety of topics), without being open-minded enough to question their initial assumptions and check them against outside perspectives to "test" the fundamental architecture of their designs.
    ^Sorry, didn't bother to read.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I am confused as to how you are using "judgers". You sort of imply you are a perceiver & not a judger, but you apparently identify as Ti-dom which is a judging type...? Or are you referring specifically to extroverted judging & extroverted perceiving?

    Your sports illustration did not make sense to me either. Sports terrified me as a child & I found them very unenjoyable partly because of all the rules & competition & lack of imagination. If I play any games with friends, it was "make it up as you go along" silly stuff with no real winning & not much structure, if any at all.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I am confused as to how you are using "judgers". You sort of imply you are a perceiver & not a judger, but you apparently identify as Ti-dom which is a judging type...? Or are you referring specifically to extroverted judging & extroverted perceiving?

    Your sports illustration did not make sense to me either. Sports terrified me as a child & I found them very unenjoyable partly because of all the rules & competition & lack of imagination. If I play any games with friends, it was "make it up as you go along" silly stuff with no real winning & not much structure, if any at all.
    In the quote, Jung distinguishes between "judging observers" and "perceiving observers." They are simply observing types of people; but you're right, his distinction between judgers and perceptives is obscure because I didn't give enough context.

    The context that matters here is the application of judgment versus perception, and this application is external. Whereas for a Ti-dom, this application is internal.

    I wasn't scared of sports, at first; I was scared of some of the types of kids that I had to play sports with. Eventually I gave up on sports, the whole system is dominated by Judgers in the traditional sense, i.e., externals.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Naturally it [difficulty observing type] depends very largely also upon the attitude of the observer, whether he lays hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of a personality. Speaking generally a judging observer will tend to seize the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be influenced more by the unconscious character, since judgment is chiefly interested in the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception tends to register the mere happening." (Psychological Types, 427.)

    So Judgers tend to "lay hold of" the conscious, that is, the superior, or conscious, dominant function which motivates or drives a person; while Perceivers register behavioral actuality which creeps up from the unconscious ego, representing functions that the person is not completely aware of or in control of.

    I used to make various observations about my 8w7 ESTJ former boss, who is quite the man's man and completely in charge of his external realm of activity. But external control and - in his case - domination, is implicitly about controlling the subconscious, or unconscious, subjective factor.

    As a result, his actual behavior, as I observed it, was entirely childish for a man's man such as him. He was childishly selfish, and he had the 2-year-old's greedy attitude of "mine! mine! mine!" His entire personal world was ego-dominant. And he used to "play" with other people like they were his toys. If he was bored, he would create problems, while pretending to be completely innocent of everything, and then order his employees to clean up the messes while blaming them for it all.

    If I were a Judger, these things would not register with me. Judging is something I've developed through personality theory. Perceivers, I've found, don't understand my judgments about personality issues such as motives which Judgers are instinctively aware of. An untrained observer of human behavior doesn't understand, and becomes a victim of Judger motivations they can't comprehend because they, as every untrained person, assumes everybody else's thought-patterns match their own. Thus the average Perceiver is left standing flat-footed while the Judger, who instinctively understands motivation and thus can gain control over humans through their various motivations, runs circles around him.

    That's not to say that Judgers are always right, instincts are not omniscient. But if Judgers are right more often than not in their instincts about what drives people, then they can gain the upper-hand more often than not.

    The Perceiver doesn't think in such terms. Judgers ruined my childhood. Judgers are intensely competitive at games, while I played them for fun. Winning or losing didn't affect me, I was interested in observing the outcomes. For some reason, this makes Judgers extremely angry. Whenever Judgers became involved in sports I was active in, they ruined it for me because it stopped being fun due to the constant pressure to succeed and win. They didn't see me as motivated by perception, but only the fact that I was not driven enough by their motives to take it all so seriously. Of course I realize we had different ideas about the concept of "fun." "Fun" to me was playing the game, "fun" was in the "journey" and in observing the outcome; "fun" to them was plotting how to win and then winning the game.

    Since, for me, outcomes are objective, these outcomes are spoiled by any cheating. For Judgers, cheating was part of the game. As an example, my former boss, who would cheat anybody at any time; and even if he lost in the end, the fact that someone else got cheated made it all worthwhile. I literally observed him clap his hands together once and then start rubbing them together in glee, grinning as if he was some villain in a "b" grade movie. I watched as he falsified his computerized business records in order to cheat some Israeli businessmen out of a mere $5000, which to him is chicken feed, simply in order to win a contract which others were competing for. Money wasn't the motive, winning was the motive.

    We disagree on type calls because we focus on different elements of a personality. Judgers focus on motives, while Perceivers focus on behaviors. I've described personality in this post which to me is mostly a behavior, by instinct. But due to personality training I can delve down to the motives, it just doesn't come as easy to me.
    Can you give more examples and elaborate. I understand what u mean by the words judgers and percievers. But I'm not sure what you mean about judgers focus on motives. What does that mean, motives? I need an example. And I also need an example of the behaviors percievers focus on.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Can you give more examples and elaborate. I understand what u mean by the words judgers and percievers. But I'm not sure what you mean about judgers focus on motives. What does that mean, motives? I need an example. And I also need an example of the behaviors percievers focus on.
    My former boss was not only a tremendous extravert, but a great example of type.

    His motive was to win at any cost.

    His behavior, as observed by me, was childish and selfish; his methods were extremely crude albeit devious and effective.

    Picking a worker up by his shirt and yelling in his face was an extremely crude and childish management technique. And all he was trying to do was prevent the employee from winning (i.e., doing things his way and not the boss's way). And it was effective, because the employee started doing things the boss's way after this 6'-3" husky individual bellowed directly into his face. The ends justify the means.

    Jung is pointing to an oppositional attitude between conscious and relatively unconscious functions. The context of the quote was the extraverted person. The external life of this personality is very well developed, their effectiveness and sense of control lies in the eternal realm. The internal, the subconscious, remains undeveloped, "archaic" as Jung would say, and primitive. In one and the same act of bellowing in someone's face, both his internal, subjective primitiveness and external, objective effectiveness are revealed.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #8
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    My former boss was not only a tremendous extravert, but a great example of type.

    His motive was to win at any cost.

    His behavior, as observed by me, was childish and selfish; his methods were extremely crude albeit devious and effective.

    Picking a worker up by his shirt and yelling in his face was an extremely crude and childish management technique. And all he was trying to do was prevent the employee from winning (i.e., doing things his way and not the boss's way). And it was effective, because the employee started doing things the boss's way after this 6'-3" husky individual bellowed directly into his face. The ends justify the means.

    Jung is pointing to an oppositional attitude between conscious and relatively unconscious functions. The context of the quote was the extraverted person. The external life of this personality is very well developed, their effectiveness and sense of control lies in the eternal realm. The internal, the subconscious, remains undeveloped, "archaic" as Jung would say, and primitive. In one and the same act of bellowing in someone's face, both his internal, subjective primitiveness and external, objective effectiveness are revealed.
    So are you saying that if the poor bloke that was yelled at by the boss was a judger...he would see the boss as an egotistical control freak

    But if the poor bloke was a perciever he would see the boss as an 3 year old child or see through the rough exterior and into the pathetic human he was?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    So are you saying that if the poor bloke that was yelled at by the boss was a judger...he would see the boss as an egotistical control freak

    But if the poor bloke was a perciever he would see the boss as an 3 year old child or see through the rough exterior and into the pathetic human he was?
    Recall that I was giving my own interpretation of my former boss. Jung would say his behavior was primitive, I would say childish.

    I'm really just interpreting Jung here. He believed that perceivers and judgers, who are both observing someone's type in his example, come to different conclusions about type. I can't very well speak for the poor bloke's perception although I strongly believe he is the Perceiver type (having worked in the same company with him for over 8 years). What I see him doing is describing the event to his friends and family, some of them responding to it by laughing hysterically (yes) and some of them with anger. Beyond that, since the bloke knows zilch about typing people, he wouldn't see it as primitive or childish, just extremely hilarious.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    So are you saying that if the poor bloke that was yelled at by the boss was a judger...he would see the boss as an egotistical control freak

    But if the poor bloke was a perciever he would see the boss as an 3 year old child or see through the rough exterior and into the pathetic human he was?
    I should also mention that the ego here comes from the unconscious, primitive or infantile motivation.

    I don't see him, realistically, as judging the boss at all.

    Let's look at your question another way. If the bloke was a perceiver (let's say ESFP) and also a type-watcher, then he would see him as... let's say, feral.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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